The Man formerly known as "Bittersteel" Aegor Rivers (technically Targaryen)...maybe not so bad

[KingMaekarWasHere]

I sometimes think that Bittersteel may have gotten a very bad rep, in part because Bloodraven hated him so much in turn. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if Bloodraven not been on Daeron the Good's side in the Blackfyre Rebellion, Aegor Rivers may have been allowed to re-enter the king's peace and may have lived a halfway decent life among his Bracken cousins. Maybe Aegor would have even sided with Daeron the Good, had Bloodraven been sent away in his youth instead of Bittersteel. We could speculate until the cows come home, but here comes the point...

If all we know of Bittersteel's character is that he was "angry" all the time, how different could he really be from King Bob (Robert Baratheon), Stannis the Mannis, and Victarion Greyjoy? All those characters are beloved by fans but have insatiable "anger" as well as other emotions for that matter. I realize that the Baratheon motto is Our is the Fury, but Bittersteel had the blood of Daemon the Rogue Prince as well as the macho, hairy Brackens in his veins! From the beginning, was he stamped out by Nature to be an angry thorn in the side of the legitimate Targaryens? Or was Bittersteel an anti-hero that was wronged too many times in his youth? Hopefully the next installment of Fire and Blood...maybe called Blood and Fire will illuminate the whole of the reigns of Aegon IV and Good King Daeron, so that we as readers may come to better understand the motivations of "bastards" like Aegor Rivers (Targaryen). 

Edited November 7, 2023 by KingMaekarWasHere
spelling

[Alester Florent]

41 minutes ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

I sometimes think that Bittersteel may have gotten a very bad rep, in part because Bloodraven hated him so much in turn. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if Bloodraven not been on Daeron the Good's side in the Blackfyre Rebellion, Aegor Rivers may have been allowed to re-enter the king's peace and may have lived a halfway decent life among his Bracken cousins. Maybe Aegor would have even sided with Daeron the Good, had Bloodraven been sent away in his youth instead of Bittersteel. We could speculate until the cows come home, but here comes the point...

If all we know of Bittersteel's character is that he was "angry" all the time, how different could he really be from King Bob (Robert Baratheon), Stannis the Mannis, and Victarion Greyjoy? All those characters are beloved by fans but have insatiable "anger" as well as other emotions for that matter.

I think there's a difference between someone like Robert or Victarion, who is generally quick to anger, quick to laugh, and relatively quick to forgive (most of the time), and the impression we get of Bittersteel, which is of someone angry all the time, someone permanently embittered. In that way he seems much more like Stannis, or even Cersei: someone who feels entitled to more than they have, who resents those who have what they don't, and who never stops to count their blessings.

Bittersteel may be closest to Stannis, given the family dynamic: if we accept that he believes the "birther" conspiracy about Daeron II, he's the middle of the three male Great Bastards, loyal to his elder brother (and his children), and contemptuous of his younger, more politically savvy and accomplished brother. And unlike Stannis, who seems to have developed his persona on his own, Bittersteel has the whole heap of grievances of the Brackens behind him, his family doubtless pouring poison in his ears from an early age, which is going to make his dislike of Bloodraven even more palpable and his general mien much harsher.

With Stannis, I kind of get his popularity, but I think it's a slow burner. There may have been those who genuinely liked Stannis as far back as ACoK, I don't know, but he makes a case for being the central villain of that book, or at least one of them, inasmuch as the ASoIaF novels ever have such central characters. I suspect Stannis really started to turn it around in people's minds in ASoS when he had his epiphany that he'd been going about it all wrong and rather than sulking he should be trying to set things to rights (save the kingdom to win the throne, etc). He's still a grumpy bastard but becomes more of a jerk with a heart of gold, and therefore likeable, than the jerk with a heart of jerk he seemed to be before. I don't get the impression that Bittersteel ever had that moment: instead he keeps raising his banner in increasingly futile rebellions, devastating not only the kingdom but also the family line he's nominally trying to serve, and his dying wish seems to be that people continue doing the same.

I suspect that whatever history we get in Blood and Fire will be hostile to Bittersteel, because of its in-character nature, although it may not be fond of Bloodraven either. But there is certainly quite a bit to unpack there.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

14 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

I sometimes think that Bittersteel may have gotten a very bad rep, in part because Bloodraven hated him so much in turn. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if Bloodraven not been on Daeron the Good's side in the Blackfyre Rebellion, Aegor Rivers may have been allowed to re-enter the king's peace and may have lived a halfway decent life among his Bracken cousins. Maybe Aegor would have even sided with Daeron the Good, had Bloodraven been sent away in his youth instead of Bittersteel. We could speculate until the cows come home, but here comes the point...

If all we know of Bittersteel's character is that he was "angry" all the time, how different could he really be from King Bob (Robert Baratheon), Stannis the Mannis, and Victarion Greyjoy? All those characters are beloved by fans but have insatiable "anger" as well as other emotions for that matter. I realize that the Baratheon motto is Our is the Fury, but Bittersteel had the blood of Daemon the Rogue Prince as well as the macho, hairy Brackens in his veins! From the beginning, was he stamped out by Nature to be an angry thorn in the side of the legitimate Targaryens? Or was Bittersteel an anti-hero that was wronged too many times in his youth? Hopefully the next installment of Fire and Blood...maybe called Blood and Fire will illuminate the whole of the reigns of Aegon IV and Good King Daeron, so that we as readers may come to better understand the motivations of "bastards" like Aegor Rivers (Targaryen). 

Wait a second, I was aware of Stannis-stans, but are there Robert-stans and Victorian-stans as well? I guess I always got the general vibe...that some of the fanbase generally was too forgiving of Robert, but I never saw that many like....pro-Robert topics or something. And Victorian? Really? Does he have a big following I missed? Beloved? It is just really hard to imagine the word beloved and Victorian Greyjoy being in the same sentence. 

Edit : Oh shit, I need to say something about the actual topic. Hmmm, I guess I agree with @Alester Florent, I think Bittersteel is missing a key component that would make him popular (and I can even admit I think Robert and Stannis are more likable than him...Victorian even...I guess..kind of. Yeah, I am really not getting the Victorian thing. He murdered his own wife..... Is he really beloved?) Honestly, Bittersteel...seems well, bitter. That isn't really a trait people usually like in a character if it's front and center. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Alester Florent]

32 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Wait a second, I was aware of Stannis-stans, but are there Robert-stans and Victorian-stans as well? I guess I always got the general vibe...that some of the fanbase generally was too forgiving of Robert, but I never saw that many like....pro-Robert topics or something.

Yeah, I don't think Robert is particularly popular with the fans. For my part, I think the fanbase on the whole, at least on this forum, is too harsh on him. He is certainly a deeply flawed man but the guy we see is basically a morality tale on making The Hero into a king and how there's no such thing as "happily ever after". Peak Robert seems to have been a very different story.

As for his misdeeds, he has certainly done things we might disapprove of but on the scale of ASoIaF villains he barely moves the needle. I would argue for instance that he is far less reprehensible than Tyrion, who retains a firm fan following, and I can make a case that he's a better guy than Stannis too. It's fair to hold him to account, but the way people talk about him you'd think he was the first coming of Gregor Clegane or something. I saw someone refer to him as a "mad tyrant" the other day. Come on, not even close.

As to Victarion, I think there are people who enjoy his chapters, but I can't imagine there are many who actually like the character. I would compare him to Cersei in that respect, except for the prominent example of an apparent Cersei stan on this forum.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Craving Peaches]

18 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

but I can't imagine there are many who actually like the character.

I don't know about you, but I am cheering on Vic to bash-in the skulls of the slavers and beat Euron.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[KingMaekarWasHere]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know about you, but I am cheering on Vic to bash-in the skulls of the slavers and beat Euron.

And...that's what I was getting at! Good point indeed! Also, people want Vic to kill Euron as well even though that's "kinslaying!" Didn't stop Maegor or Bloodraven though! 

[Alester Florent]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know about you, but I am cheering on Vic to bash-in the skulls of the slavers and beat Euron.

Oh, me too... but I think people still see him as the means to an end rather than having any actual affection for the character himself.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Oh, me too... but I think people still see him as the means to an end rather than having any actual affection for the character himself.

I find him funny, in a 'crosses the line twice' way. Some of the stuff he does should be awful but the way he thinks about it is just funny.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[sweetsunray]

Well, upon closer inspection Bittersteel isn't entirely dishonorable. He always followed the line of succession for the Blackfyres to a t. It seems as if he didn't back Daemon II Blackfyre, but at the time Bittersteel would have been fighting for the Second Sons (and I think it's safe to assume that Bittersteel had Blackfyre with him when he fought for the Second Sons to recruit men from Westeros amongst the Second Sons to start his own Golden Company). There are reasons to believe Bittersteel wasn't too keen on Daemon II, but ultimately Bittersteel didn't crown another Blackfyre until Daemon II (captive at the Red Keep) was dead, years later. Bittersteel was married to one of Daemon's daughters and presumably would have had children with her - grandchildren of Daemon Blackfyre, via the female line.  Once Bittersteel led the Golden Company, the sword and the de facto regent of house Blackfyre, he never used this position to crown his own children, even when the next Blackfyre in line of the male line was still a babe or toddler.

Hatred for Bloodraven and Blackwoods alone cannot explain that. Nor personal honor either, since he chose to take the black after capture, but escaped before arriving at Eastwatch. It seems he truly believed the Blackfyres were the legitimate bloodline to the throne, and followed the order of birth, sons coming before daughters, grandsons before uncles.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

19 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I find him funny, in a 'crosses the line twice' way. Some of the stuff he does should be awful but the way he thinks about it is just funny.

I do admit to liking when he like commits blasphemy in two religions during ADwD, while thinking he is honoring them both.

[Frey family reunion]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:26 PM, Alester Florent said:

As to Victarion, I think there are people who enjoy his chapters, but I can't imagine there are many who actually like the character. I would compare him to Cersei in that respect, except for the prominent example of an apparent Cersei stan on this forum.

Don't particularly get that comparison.  I think Cersei was a good character through the first three books.  But when I say good, I mean it as an interesting well written character.  Unfortunately in A Feast she became a cartoon villain.

I never found that Victarion was a particulary interesting or well written character, however.  

[KingMaekarWasHere]

On 11/8/2023 at 9:10 PM, sweetsunray said:

 Bittersteel was married to one of Daemon's daughters and presumably would have had children with her - grandchildren of Daemon Blackfyre, via the female line.  Once Bittersteel led the Golden Company, the sword and the de facto regent of house Blackfyre, he never used this position to crown his own children, even when the next Blackfyre in line of the male line was still a babe or toddler.

 

Didn't GRRM state in an interview or at a convention that Bittersteel never had children? I don't mean to say for certain that you are incorrect on this point, but George does tend to have a decent memory most of the time so it's very likely that Bittersteel was infertile or that all of his half-Blackfyre children died stillborn. (Maybe deformed at that like many Targ babies.) 

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Didn't GRRM state in an interview or at a convention that Bittersteel never had children? I don't mean to say for certain that you are incorrect on this point, but George does tend to have a decent memory most of the time so it's very likely that Bittersteel was infertile or that all of his half-Blackfyre children died stillborn. (Maybe deformed at that like many Targ babies.) 

Not sure. It's of course possible he had no children.

But even then I still observe a succession of crownings that at the very least go against the image that Peake creates about Bittersteel being absent at Whitewalls and Daemon II not having Blackfyre. On the surface we are given the impression that Bittersteel isn't a fan of Daemon II and didn't back him. And yet, he did not crown another claimant until Daemon II had died. And he crowned a grandson over one of Daemon II's surviving younger brothers.

More, I doubt that Bittersteel was upset with Bloodraven for arresting and killing one of Daemon II's younger brothers: Aenys Blackfyre was Daemon Blackfyre's 5th son, while Daemon III was a grandson via Haegon (4th son of Daemon Blackfyre). Grandsons come before uncles. 

[Alester Florent]

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But even then I still observe a succession of crownings that at the very least go against the image that Peake creates about Bittersteel being absent at Whitewalls and Daemon II not having Blackfyre. On the surface we are given the impression that Bittersteel isn't a fan of Daemon II and didn't back him. And yet, he did not crown another claimant until Daemon II had died. And he crowned a grandson over one of Daemon II's surviving younger brothers.

More, I doubt that Bittersteel was upset with Bloodraven for arresting and killing one of Daemon II's younger brothers: Aenys Blackfyre was Daemon Blackfyre's 5th son, while Daemon III was a grandson via Haegon (4th son of Daemon Blackfyre). Grandsons come before uncles. 

My impression of the Daemon II thing is that Bittersteel saw it as something of a fool's errand. Whether he had any confidence in Daemon II personally, he recognised him as the "legitimate" claimant. He may for instance have offered to crown him but Daemon insisted on being crowned in Westeros as part of some romantic enterprise, and the more pragmatic Bittersteel, sceptical of the actual support that he could raise, didn't want any part of that and refused to participate. But although the whole thing ends in tears, Daemon is still the legitimate claimant and Bittersteel respects that, indeed has to respect that if the whole Blackfyre deal is to retain any credibility.

With Aenys, I'm sure Bittersteel was furious with Bloodraven, whether Aenys was the lineal Blackfyre claimant or not. He's still a senior member of the royal family, a potential claimant to the throne, a close relative of Bittersteel and very possibly someone he had a hand in raising, even notwithstanding that it was done under safe conduct, an outrage in itself.

Theon's purported killing of Bran and Rickon wasn't shrugged off by Stark loyalists with "oh well, it's not like either of them was the king".

Edited November 13, 2023 by Alester Florent

[sweetsunray]

49 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Theon's purported killing of Bran and Rickon wasn't shrugged off by Stark loyalists with "oh well, it's not like either of them was the king".

But then Bran and Rickon would not jump in line ahead of Robb's child if he would ever had one, right?

While Aenys did it peacefully, he slily acted on his own to claim a crown, completely ignoring he had a nephew (Haegon died and fathered Daemon III before Aenys put his claim to the grand council). 

Furthermore, I believe Maelys was the last son of Daemon Blackfyre. But even if he was a grandson, like Aenys he upjumped his nephews or second cousins, but he did it by kinslaying. Bittersteel would have rolled in his golden grave if he had one.

The timing of Daemon II's effort at Whitewalls coincides with a time when Bittersteel would have been fighting for the Second Sons, and before the existence of the Golden Company. So, I'm more inclined to think that Peake managed to persuade Daemon II to come behind Bittersteel's back. In fact, this could be the reason why Peake himself is annoyed whenever someone else mentions the absence of Bittersteel. It's not as if House Peake shies away from taking initiative and act without coordinating with Bittersteel. It's with their solo rebellion that Maekar dies, while Bittersteel makes a last attempt during Aegon V's reign (after Maekar) with Daemon III.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Mourning Star]

I find it hard to judge a character we've never seen on the page nor even directly quoted. All we have are second hand accounts largely from those who defeated him.

It would suit Lord Bloodraven if their names were all forgotten, so he has forbidden us to sing of them, but I remember. Robb Reyne, Gareth the Grey, Ser Aubrey Ambrose, Lord Gormon Peake, Black Byren Flowers, Redtusk, Fireball . . . Bittersteel! I ask you, has there ever been such a noble company, such a roll of heroes?

[KingMaekarWasHere]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:33 PM, Mourning Star said:

I find it hard to judge a character we've never seen on the page nor even directly quoted. All we have are second hand accounts largely from those who defeated him.

It would suit Lord Bloodraven if their names were all forgotten, so he has forbidden us to sing of them, but I remember. Robb Reyne, Gareth the Grey, Ser Aubrey Ambrose, Lord Gormon Peake, Black Byren Flowers, Redtusk, Fireball . . . Bittersteel! I ask you, has there ever been such a noble company, such a roll of heroes?

Lord Bloodraven is a master of deception is he not? "A thousand eyes and one!" so they say. Not to mention the Westerosi version of the Master of Disguise! 

[Mourning Star]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:44 PM, KingMaekarWasHere said:

Lord Bloodraven is a master of deception is he not? "A thousand eyes and one!" so they say. Not to mention the Westerosi version of the Master of Disguise! 

I have long believed that Bloodraven is not the Three Eyed Crow from Bran's falling dream, and is responsible for the return of the Others.

[Gilbert Green]

I take the simple view that the Blackfyres are villains.   I'm not saying GRRM does not humanize them to some extent, which is simply good writing.  Villains are people too.  But they are Villains nonetheless.

[Mourning Star]

18 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I take the simple view that the Blackfyres are villains.   I'm not saying GRRM does not humanize them to some extent, which is simply good writing.  Villains are people too.  But they are Villains nonetheless.

Counterpoint, I would suggest that both Bloodraven and Bittersteel are "villains", but Daemon Blackfyre was not.

My father says that it was Fireball as much as Bittersteel who convinced Daemon Blackfyre to claim the crown, and rescued him when Daeron sent the Kingsguard to arrest him.

Yet it was a decision he made rashly, for word soon reached King Daeron that Blackfyre meant to declare himself king within the turn of the moon. (We do not know how word came to Daeron, though Merion's unfinished The Red Dragon and the Black suggests that another of the Great Bastards, Brynden Rivers, was involved.) The king sent the Kingsguard to arrest Daemon before he could take his plans for treason any further. Daemon was forewarned, and with the help of the famously hot-tempered knight Ser Quentyn Ball, called Fireball, he was able to escape the Red Keep safely. Daemon Blackfyre's allies used this attempted arrest as a cause for war, claiming that Daeron had acted against Daemon out of no more than baseless fear.

And that Daemon Blackfyre was the brother Bloodraven loved.

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."