Bad Worldbuilding in ASoIaF

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

- no one realised his accounting was dodgy(it still might not be)

Quote

He went back to work after she left, trying to track some golden dragons through the labyrinth of Littlefinger's ledgers. Petyr Baelish had not believed in letting gold sit about and grow dusty, that was for certain, but the more Tyrion tried to make sense of his accounts the more his head hurt. It was all very well to talk of breeding dragons instead of locking them up in the treasury, but some of these ventures smelled worse than week-old fish. 

It's not just the knife, Tyrion knows something is wrong with his accounting and calls him untrustworthy yet he does... Nothing. Also, I know Tyrion is smart, but that dodgy accounting should have been noticed by anyone else with a similar level of knowledge about mathematics or finance, like a maester. It should be fairly obvious from that information that Littlefinger is embezzling/laundering money:

• The ledger is byzantine
• It is hard to make sense of the accounts (probably because they don't actually add up)
• Money has been put into seemingly bad ventures (classic strategy)

If it was just the knife alone I wouldn't have an issue. But it is the knife combined with this combined with Tyrion admitting multiple times to himself that he doesn't trust Littlefinger...

[astarkchoice]

41 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's not just the knife, Tyrion knows something is wrong with his accounting and calls him untrustworthy yet he does... Nothing. Also, I know Tyrion is smart, but that dodgy accounting should have been noticed by anyone else with a similar level of knowledge about mathematics or finance, like a maester. It should be fairly obvious from that information that Littlefinger is embezzling/laundering money:

• The ledger is byzantine
• It is hard to make sense of the accounts (probably because they don't actually add up)
• Money has been put into seemingly bad ventures (classic strategy)

If it was just the knife alone I wouldn't have an issue. But it is the knife combined with this combined with Tyrion admitting multiple times to himself that he doesn't trust Littlefinger...

Basic accounting man he has to sit down and actualy add it all up to find whats missing, elaborate can suggest fraud not prove it, it says some ventures smell fishy but thats not proof.  He simply hasnt time to add it all.up and follow up whats fake and whats real   and.as we see from kevan...it doenst matter that much anyway as the lannisters floated the idea of covering the crowns debts with their unlimited gold!!!!!  Besides they KNOW hes embezzeling some of it as literaly every master of coin and all the people on the steps up to that are expected to be dirty anyway

 

Plus Vs the value of  him bringing them the tyrells then the vale then the rest  is too small to be high priority. Tyrion may have put dealing with of off until later when things where calmer and he had time to properly count up the books to see whats missing (or better yet pay a few iron bank types to do it for him)

[sifth]

3 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Astopor has been covered at length   , the wise masters arent dumb as her dec is not only  utterly random but its like ducking the russian mafia only to plug a member.of the italian mafia so both sides want u dead!

As for harpies no she soends al her time ina pyramid surrounded by unsullied its virtualy impossible to get a shot at her til she decides to go outside or later to the pits

 

Sorry, but I will never agree to that logic. Selling someone your entire army and expecting them to not turn it on you, might be the dumbest move in the entire series. The Yunkai didn't want Dany dead at first, they were willing to bribe her to leave. So yea, the Wise Masters street cred was worth nothing.

The only thing more dumb in this entire series, is Balon attacking the North, before trying to make an alliance with the Lannisters, lol

[astarkchoice]

12 hours ago, sifth said:

Sorry, but I will never agree to that logic. Selling someone your entire army and expecting them to not turn it on you, might be the dumbest move in the entire series. The Yunkai didn't want Dany dead at first, they were willing to bribe her to leave. So yea, the Wise Masters street cred was worth nothing.

The only thing more dumb in this entire series, is Balon attacking the North, before trying to make an alliance with the Lannisters, lol

No one else they normaly meet would turn it on them theyd have 0 reason to and probably profit from slave trade. They have even less reason is mistrust a seemingly weak little girl whos stated objective is a world away and utterly unreleated to ending slavery. 

Add in one of the most powerful rulers in all the world already wants her dead thus making her start a war vs slavers bay makes even less sense and the prospect of breaking in an actual dragon.

 

Balon was gonna attack anyway might as well see if the lannisters (who robb had beaten like a dog) wanted to coordinate their war efforts..nothing to lose by asking

 

Side note the yunkai  offered to bribe her as she wss outside their city gates bringing war , we are clearly told the slaver city masters are all interrelated and see it in mereen .... just because theyd prefer to bribe then fight at that particular time doesnt mean shes forgiven and forgotten..you dont kill the friends and family of powerful rich people and walk away neither the real world or fantasy works like that

Edited January 30 by astarkchoice

[sifth]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

No one else they normaly meet would turn it on them theyd have 0 reason to and probably profit from slave trade. They have even less reason is mistrust a seemingly weak little girl whos stated objective is a world away and utterly unreleated to ending slavery. 

Add in one of the most powerful rulers in all the world already wants her dead thus making her start a war vs slavers bay makes even less sense and the prospect of breaking in an actual dragon.

 

Balon was gonna attack anyway might as well see if the lannisters (who robb had beaten like a dog) wanted to coordinate their war efforts..nothing to lose by asking

I don't know why you enjoy defending losers like Balon and the Wise Masters so much. You're literally the only person on here willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. You're basically their biggest fan on this place, lol

I feel like we've had this chat way too many times and it gives me a headache each time we have it. So I'm going to be the bigger person and save a lot of time and just say. Agree, to disagree and move on.

[Ran]

@astarkchoice 

Have to agree with you, BTW, so let no one tell you you are alone.

The Wise Masters have had centuries of exclusively providing the best slave-soldiers in Essos, and their entire economy is structured around the obvious belief that slavery is a great economic model, and that their unique provision of Unsullied provides them safety. It's not surprising at all that they're so convinced of their essential nature that no one would actually turn on them with their own soldiers. When you read some of the crazy stuff that went on in the past (there's some fun stuff in the Flashman novels), the behavior doesn't seem so odd.

As to Balon, of course he was dumb -- he was obsessed to madness with revenge. But I don't think his talking to the Lannisters _after_ he attacked the North is so strange. If he talks to them first about an alliance, he's a beggar coming hat in hand. He wanted to pay the iron price for the North, and then assumed the Lannisters would just be happy to work with him so they could focus on their enemies in the south.

However, by the time he felt secure, things had rapidly changed in the South (Renly dead, Stannis fled) and now the Lannisters had far less pressure on them. Sucks to be him (but then, it's not like he had long to live anyways, with Euron coming.)

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

@astarkchoice 

Have to agree with you, BTW, so let no one tell you you are alone.

The Wise Masters have had centuries of exclusively providing the best slave-soldiers in Essos, and their entire economy is structured around the obvious belief that slavery is a great economic model, and that their unique provision of Unsullied provides them safety. It's not surprising at all that they're so convinced of their essential nature that no one would actually turn on them with their own soldiers. When you read some of the crazy stuff that went on in the past (there's some fun stuff in the Flashman novels), the behavior doesn't seem so odd.

As to Balon, of course he was dumb -- he was obsessed to madness with revenge. But I don't think his talking to the Lannisters _after_ he attacked the North is so strange. If he talks to them first about an alliance, he's a beggar coming hat in hand. He wanted to pay the iron price for the North, and then assumed the Lannisters would just be happy to work with him so they could focus on their enemies in the south.

However, by the time he felt secure, things had rapidly changed in the South (Renly dead, Stannis fled) and now the Lannisters had far less pressure on them. Sucks to be him (but then, it's not like he had long to live anyways, with Euron coming.)

Yeah the more you reflect on the vast resources slavers bay can bring to bear on an enemy it makes 0 sense for even someone who doesnt profit directly or indirectly esp someone who all common sense would say will be fighting for the iron throne.

Balon was a total  prick to his son, hes a dolt for glorifying the old ways when trade (or a mix of trade and subtle low key raiding) is clesrly far more profitable for the ironborn. Hes a dolt for choosing westeros for the ironborn to go back to their old ways with when essos is clearly FAR richer pickings. People hate on him as he made theon (as much as anyone can make anyone do anything) betray robb at a time when robb needed him most and of course cause hes a murdering slaving pirate and not the fun 'cap jack sparrow ' type! 

But as for balons wars the idea that the ironborn couldnt emulate what the  vikings they are based on  against lands they held before isnt that far fetched.  The ironborn rebellion doesnt seem far feteched either,  had vic won at sea westeros would have been like a year or so before the iron throne could have built enough ships to challenge them (assuming the ironborn leave ports unmolested).

Now we know the targ heirs would still have been outthere casting a shadow over roberts legitimacy , the might of the reach still  treacherous, dorne the same, outer crownlands and who knows what other minor lords. To put it simply it all came down to sea power which made it all very winnable for them ......until vic fucked it up!

Vs robb unless balon is supposed to be reading the books as we are hes got no reason to know (as 99%of even northernlords wouldnt) that moat catlin isnt the only way north. Now he does strike as a moron  going forward as   due to the plot armour/ bizzare unknown reasons  after the inital highly sucessful assaults  arent followed up with a 20k or so invasion force!

The ironborn are an afterthought for grmm when the situation on the ground keeps getting better and better for their main force (until final books) not only does theon excede all expectations ,  not only does the royal fleet destroy itself but the boltons betray and slaughter a decent % of whats left of the northd fighting men!! Balon is a baboon to let such golden oppertunites slip past!!!

 

 

Edited January 30 by astarkchoice

[Craving Peaches]

10 hours ago, Ran said:

As to Balon, of course he was dumb -- he was obsessed to madness with revenge. But I don't think his talking to the Lannisters _after_ he attacked the North is so strange. If he talks to them first about an alliance, he's a beggar coming hat in hand. He wanted to pay the iron price for the North, and then assumed the Lannisters would just be happy to work with him so they could focus on their enemies in the south.

I also don't think he attacked the North just because he was stupid. I think he attacked for revenge and because it was an easy target. He picked a lower risk, lower reward target rather than the high risk high reward target of Lannisport. He was being cautious there. Or maybe cowardly. Which is consistent with his prior character since he was sitting/hiding in his castle at the end of the Greyjoy rebellion, and he chose to surrender rather than go down fighting. So I don't see an issue with this in terms of world building.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I also don't think he attacked the North just because he was stupid. I think he attacked for revenge and because it was an easy target. He picked a lower risk, lower reward target rather than the high risk high reward target of Lannisport. He was being cautious there. Or maybe cowardly. Which is consistent with his prior character since he was sitting/hiding in his castle at the end of the Greyjoy rebellion, and he chose to surrender rather than go down fighting. So I don't see an issue with this in terms of world building.

Yeah the real worldbuilding issue with it is why in the fuck he sat back with the entire ironborn military after the sucessful inital assaults esp as things went better than he ever in his wildest dreams could have planned! 

Its clear grmm sorta just forgot about them or wanted us to forget them to add to the shock value of 'reek'

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Ran said:

@astarkchoice 

Have to agree with you, BTW, so let no one tell you you are alone.

The Wise Masters have had centuries of exclusively providing the best slave-soldiers in Essos, and their entire economy is structured around the obvious belief that slavery is a great economic model, and that their unique provision of Unsullied provides them safety. It's not surprising at all that they're so convinced of their essential nature that no one would actually turn on them with their own soldiers. When you read some of the crazy stuff that went on in the past (there's some fun stuff in the Flashman novels), the behavior doesn't seem so odd.

 

It’s much less silly than appears at first glance.

The Good Masters of Astapor are probably well aware that someone could turn the Unsullied on them.  But, that’s a one trick pony.  Kraznys & Co., assume that everyone is as profit-seeking as they are.  The one-off profit, from sacking Astapor, is nothing to the profit gained from capturing slaves, and selling them to the Good Masters.  They think that anyone who wants to profit from human-trafficking has to go through them.

And, they’re correct. “Thus do we all prosper.”  From, their POV, the transaction with Dany is win-win.  The Dothraki always bring them their captives.

But , Dany transformed the rules of the game, by deciding to end human trafficking.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah the real worldbuilding issue with it is why in the fuck he sat back with the entire ironborn military after the sucessful inital assaults esp as things went better than he ever in his wildest dreams could have planned! 

Its clear grmm sorta just forgot about them or wanted us to forget them to add to the shock value of 'reek'

The death of Balon leads all the major captains and lords to return to the Iron Islands for the Kingsmoot, and in particular Victarion brings basically 90% of the Iron Fleet (and the warriors that were under his command, which made up a major portion of the attack). Then when Euron takes over, he cares fuck all about the North and sets sail for the south.

The ironborn conquest of the North is basically abandoned, and the suckers who were left behind were abandoned too.

[Angel Eyes]

8 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah the real worldbuilding issue with it is why in the fuck he sat back with the entire ironborn military after the sucessful inital assaults esp as things went better than he ever in his wildest dreams could have planned! 

Its clear grmm sorta just forgot about them or wanted us to forget them to add to the shock value of 'reek'

Going off of that, I'm surprised that the North wouldn't have some form of defense or alert system in place since the Ironborn like to raid them (i.e. the reason why Dunk and Egg were headed northwards in The Mystery Knight because the Ironborn were threatening three coastlines).

Edited January 30 by Angel Eyes

[astarkchoice]

28 minutes ago, Ran said:

The death of Balon leads all the major captains and lords to return to the Iron Islands for the Kingsmoot, and in particular Victarion brings basically 90% of the Iron Fleet (and the warriors that were under his command, which made up a major portion of the attack). Then when Euron takes over, he cares fuck all about the North and sets sail for the south.

The ironborn conquest of the North is basically abandoned, and the suckers who were left behind were abandoned too.

Right but theres a lotta time between the inital assaults and his death where the whole west coast was  wide open.

[astarkchoice]

34 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Going off of that, I'm surprised that the North wouldn't have some form of defense or alert system in place since the Ironborn like to raid them (i.e. the reason why Dunk and Egg were headed northwards in The Mystery Knight because the Ironborn were threatening three coastlines).

True but we know its a huge coastline in the  medieval age so even with towers (and the west coast is massive itd need loads of them)  its hard to get an effective defence going without a navy just as nations  eventualy did in real life to ward of vikings.

Bear island has it worse as its got so much forrest  all around it to hide and sneak in

[Ran]

15 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Right but theres a lotta time between the inital assaults and his death where the whole west coast was  wide open.

The actual plan indicates that immediate territorial gains weren't the plan, as such -- Cleftjaw and Damphair were harrying the coast to draw attention, Asha was take Deepwood to create a foothold for additional conquest, but the main thrust and focus was to be Moat Cailin to basically cut off the North from the South.

I'm guessing that Balon figured that once Robb's efforts to get back to relieve the North was ended and some deal was worked out with the Lannisters, that the rest would fall in place. So until Robb was met and repelled, he didn't seem to intend to divide his forces further.

Edited January 30 by Ran

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

The actual plan indicates that immediate conquest wasn't the plan, as such -- Cleftjaw and Damphair were harrying the coast to draw attention, Asha was take Deepwood to create a foothold for additional conquest, but the main thrust and focus was to be Moat Cailin. I'm guessing that Balon figured that once Robb's efforts to get back to relieve the North was ended and some deal was worked out with the Lannisters, that the rest would fall in place. So until Robb was met and repelled, he didn't seem to intend to divide his forces further.

Id say once the north was cut off he assumed robb would be finished by the lannisters (later lannister-tyrells) to the rear if they tried to take moat cailin by force, even with its rep of being never taken  from the south it doesnt mean history cant be made..but that doesnt mean his whole ironborn  force has to sit there(nor could they supplywise). Id say its more.grmm.forgot about them.otherwise theyd been taking coastal forts and castles piecemeal before they can be reinforced.

Balons speech.to asha and theon seemed to suggest theyd take the western coast forts piecemeal and winterfell (the only major house/castle  far west) could defy them for a year or so.

Now that said robb has savaged the lannisters badly as did stannis (despite losing) and theres no logical way he could know the vale is never ever comming to help..therefore as far as hes concerned this could be a drawn out war where he and tywin while  maybe not agreeing.on the iron islands status as free or its right to the north (doesnt hurt to ask) could co ordinate vs robbs mini kingdom !  else despite a numeric disadvantage theres a chance the young wolf  smashes a costly path back through moat cailin, drives off the ironborn and returns to potentialy add to his unbroken string of victories over the lannisters! ...tywin we know dismisses all this as he already knows the war with robb is comming to a swift end.

[Angel Eyes]

29 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Id say once the north was cut off he assumed robb would be finished by the lannisters (later lannister-tyrells) to the rear if they tried to take moat cailin by force, even with its rep of being never taken  from the south it doesnt mean history cant be made..but that doesnt mean his whole ironborn  force has to sit there(nor could they supplywise). Id say its more.grmm.forgot about them.otherwise theyd been taking coastal forts and castles piecemeal before they can be reinforced.

 

Like how Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet?

[sifth]

I'd say the real bad world building is why the Iron Born would follow a king, who doesn't fight any of his own battles. The guy just sits in his castle while all his family members do all the real fighting, for two rebellions and the Iron Born are just alright, with this, lol

They must have really loved the guy, for some daft reason.

[Ran]

It's explained by the fact that he was a great reaver in his youth, and was only in decline now.

He had the most significant Drowned Priest and the Lord Captain of the Iron Fleet as his brothers who were extremely faithful to him, and Victarion was not a man people were willing to cross (at least not until Euron came around). 

 

[Angel Eyes]

24 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's explained by the fact that he was a great reaver in his youth, and was only in decline now.

He had the most significant Drowned Priest and the Lord Captain of the Iron Fleet as his brothers who were extremely faithful to him, and Victarion was not a man people were willing to cross (at least not until Euron came around). 

 

Balon's mentioned as having a stoop in his shoulder; could he have suffered that at the Battle of the Mander in Robert's Rebellion since he doesn't do any fighting during either time the Greyjoys rebel under his rule?