A nice post I found on Tumblr which elaborates on the Madonna/whore complex the fandom has regarding Jaime and Cersei's relationship.

[boltons are sick]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) There's nothing sexist about that law. Cersei didn't just cheat on him (which she did on the morning of the wedding). She aborted his children and got pregnant by her brother to pass them off as the rightful heirs of the throne knowing that it would cause a bloody succession crisis out of spite and because she wanted power. Ned, out of the kindness of his heart, warned her before going to Robert with the information to protect her children. She had the opportunity to run. Instead she chose to murder Ned's people and toss him in the dungeons. And yes... Cersei is more responsible for the war than Littlefinger.

8) No. Cersei isn't solely responsible for the war, but she's primarily responsible. I'm definitely not going to blame Ned for it just because he didn't stand back and let Cersei get away with her crimes.

Oh, yes, aborting the children of the man who raped you repeatedly because you are too traumatized by the experience to have his children and choosing with whom she wants to actually have children is the most serious and heinous crime someone can ever commit! Yeah, she did it "out of spite" and out of lust for power (even though she was already the Queen but whatever). Apparently, according to you, she should just accept that she would be raped for the rest of her life and shouldn't bitch about it because it's not a big deal, apparently, otherwise, if she wants revenge for it, she is "spiteful"! For the record, I really, really don't care how much Robert suffered because of Cersei's actions and I don't understand why I am supposed to feel any sympathy for a man who repeatedly raped his wife when said wife does something bad to him in return but I should vilify the raped wife.

And yes, the law is sexist because even if she was just cheating on him, she would have been executed but the same doesn't apply for Robert. This means that she had no other choice but to lie about the parentage of the children, otherwise they would be executed. So, she a woman, traumatized by years of rape, who doesn't want to bear her rapist's children because she is too traumatized, has no opportunity to escape from her abusive marriage and wants to protect her children from her husband. Yeah, let's blame her for everything bad which happens and not the actual mastermind who orchestrated all the events, so the war could break out in the first place.

And Ned's kindness was just "Go away, but remember that Robert is going to send assassins after you and your children". Considering the network of spies Varys had, Cersei and her children would have eventually been found and killed, so I really don't blame her for staying in the capital and dealing with anyone who would endanger their lives because she had no other choice and ned could have accepted her deal. Ned is really stuck-up in terms of following his culture's perceptions of morality which is demonstrated when he literally hates Jaime for killing the Mad King because it's "dishonorable" and wants him punished, so he is only doing it because Robert is his buddy and because he has adopted the sexist views of Westeros where he believest that if a woman cheats on her husband, she should be executed.

Edited November 18, 2023 by boltons are sick

[boltons are sick]

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

7) Then she shouldn't have married him. Robert did actually have a right to know the paternity of his children and lying about that was a despicable crime.

She was forced to marry him by her father. It's not like she could refuse and she couldn't just divorce him or whatever. And I don't give a single hint of damn what she did to the man who raped her over the course of 13 years, you are not going to make me feel sympathy over Robert being lied to by the woman whom he raped and ruined mentally over the course of years. And why should he know the paternity of "his" children? So, he could murder them all and commit child murder on top of the rape for the "crime" of not being sired by him?

Edited November 18, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Gilbert Green]

24 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

She was forced to marry him by her father.

Was she?  I thought she and Tywin both agreed that she would marry for wealth and power.   Rhaegar was first choice, and when that did not work out, Robert the second choice.

The idea that Tywin's children, and particularly Tyrion and Cersei, live in mortal fear of Tywin is in my mind a fan fantasy designed to justify bad behavior.  Yes, Tywin is murderous, but has demonstrated no particular tendency to be murderous towards his own children.  He was displeased when Jaime joined the Kingsguard, but Jaime is still alive and kicking.

[Gilbert Green]

I am no longer young.  I have been hearing the phrase "madonna/whore complex" for decades.  My mind always phases out when I hear it.  It just not seem to me to be a meaningful or useful concept.  But it sure sounds sophisticated, doesn't it?

[boltons are sick]

17 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Was she?  I thought she and Tywin both agreed that she would marry for wealth and power.   Rhaegar was first choice, and when that did not work out, Robert the second choice.

Yes, at first she did want to be Queen, but it's not like she could have refused him either way. And after she married, she couldn't just return to the Rock to her father because she was unhappy with her marriage. 

 

Jaime has more agency than her which is why he is able to get away with more stuff and I would argue even Tyrion has more agency than her in some regards.

Edited November 18, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Gilbert Green]

11 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Yes, at first she did want to be Queen, but it's not like she could have refused him either way.

Why not?  Who can force her to say "I do"?  She can say "I don't".  Or can threaten to say "I don't" in which case the ceremony will not even be held, because Tywin will want to avoid the embarassment.  There is this entire ceremony designed to ensure that the parties consent.  When exactly did Tywin hold a crossbow to her head?  Or was Cersei merely worried that Tywin could cut her allowance in half?

Edited November 18, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[boltons are sick]

6 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Why not?  Who can force her to say "I do"?  She can say "I don't".  Or can threaten to say "I don't" in which case the ceremony will not even be held, because Tywin will want to avoid the embarassment.  There is this entire ceremony designed to ensure that the parties consent.  When exactly did Tywin hold a crossbow to her head?  Or was Cersei merely worried that Tywin could cut her allowance in half?

If Cersei did that, she would surely get one of Tywin's "harsh lessons" like what he did to Tyrion and Tysha and was planning to do to Joffrey. And at the time she wanted to marry Robert, it's just that she couldn't divorce him once she has married him and simply return to the Rock.

Also, if you read the scene where he tries to marry her for a second time when she is an adult and the Queen Regent (which means she technically has more authority than him) she is literally incapable of making a stand against his request despite what she is saying and even Tyrion knows she has lost the battle.

[Jaenara Belarys]

13 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, if you read the scene where he tries to marry her for a second time when she is an adult and the Queen Regent (which means she technically has more authority than him) she is literally incapable of making a stand against his request despite what she is saying and even Tyrion knows she has lost the battle.

He was the Hand of the King and her dad, so I think that most people in Westeros would believe in Tywin's authority over his kids. 

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

he has adopted the sexist views of Westeros where he believest that if a woman cheats on her husband, she should be executed.

Wait that's sexist? Why get married in the first place then? If Cersei hates marriage so much she could go be a septa or something, I guess. Even Tywin would tread carefully if Cersei becomes a septa at Oldtown.

And the denying the king an heir is high treason, IIRC, though I'm not sure the Westerosi have it codified.

2 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

Yeah, let's blame her for everything bad which happens and not the actual mastermind who orchestrated all the events, so the war could break out in the first place.

Much as I loathe to use such a term on Cersei, she is also one of the masterminds of the War of the Five Kings.

[Gilbert Green]

3 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

If Cersei did that, she would surely get one of Tywin's "harsh lessons" like what he did to Tyrion and Tysha and was planning to do to Joffrey.

Are you referring to the time Tywin suggested to Tyrion that he gang-rape his own wife, and Tyrion agreed with no coercion whatsoever?  Except from Tyrion's cock?  Tyrion's cock betrayed him?  That treacherous coercive cock?  There was no crossbow to the head in that case either.  That too is a fan fantasy.

54 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, if you read the scene where he tries to marry her for a second time when she is an adult and the Queen Regent (which means she technically has more authority than him) she is literally incapable of making a stand against his request despite what she is saying and even Tyrion knows she has lost the battle.

I'm not sure what scene you have in mind, but I remember no scene at all where Tywin holds a knife to her throat.  And how does she "technically" have more authority than him?  Joffrey has no right to be king; and Cersei no right to be regent.  But Tywin has a big army to silence those who point this out.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 11/18/2023 at 5:38 AM, boltons are sick said:

 

• She is so evil and unsympathetic while Tywin is this sympathetic and understandable badass characters 

 

This is the one part I agree with you on. Tywin is just as evil as Cersei, and people who defend Tywin while bashing Cersei are being inconsistent in their morality (and I see this....A LOT). They make excuses for Tywin's actions while disregarding any of the same/similar arguments for Cersei. 

But that is the end of where I agree with you. Both Tywin and Cersei are unquestionably bad people. They both deserve to be in the "Near Pure Evil" wiki (and Cersei is only not...because of the show, not the books. If the show didn't exist, she would be there too). It does somewhat annoy me that people defend Tywin while bashing Cersei the next second...but not because of the bashing Cersei...instead because of the defending Tywin. They should be bashing Tywin, too! Not the other way around. 

Also, you did say the sex scene. AS someone else pointed out, the author himself has said it wasn't rape essentially in the books. Honestly, the scene IS gross. But I think we should attempt to read scenes the way the author wrote them. I will mention here, I think GRRM intended the scene where Tyrion has sex with a sex slave to be read as rape. I think GRRM intended us to believe that Cersei was raped by Robert (he came as close to just saying it as I think is humanly possible in a culture where there was no understanding/concept of marital rape). However, he has literally said that isn't the case with the scene with Jaime. I think the dynamic between Cersei and Jaime is important to the scene. Some people want...forceful lovers....(the popularity of "50 Shades of Grey" should show this for example)...honestly, this topic makes me uncomfortable, I just want to stop. Anyways, the author didn't intend it as rape, he has said so. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:31 AM, Alester Florent said:

And we're back to the Tywin vs Cersei debate that I think we've had a number of times, the essence of it being that Tywin is an "ends justify the means" character, and it is possible without ever being in his head to see what he's trying to accomplish, how what he does is intended to accomplish it, and why what he's trying to accomplish is apparently worthwhile. We may disagree with him and deplore his methods but it makes sense.

With Cersei, not only does it not make sense, but we do get to see inside her head and...

...the thing is, I don't think they are relatable reasons. She saw a fortune-teller when she was a girl and everything she's done, starting with the murder of her friend (not sure how that was meant to assist with the prophecy, and seems to have been pure jealousy) is built upon that. But so what? Can you imagine a world where people justified atrocities on the basis of what some fortune-teller told them? If you open a fortune cookie and it says "death is near" does that justify you going on some murder rampage?

See, I think the problem is...Tywin's means also don't justify the means. You said, can I imagine a world where everyone justified atrocities based on a fortune teller? Well, I can imagine a world where the rich/powerful justify everything they do based on wanting to be in charge of everything and exert their power over everyone...because it's this world. It's our actual world. And to be blunt, I think it is just as unjustifiable as basing things on a fortune teller. "I want to be in charge and make everyone do what I want them to do," is not....a compelling reason from my point of view for someone to excuse atrocities. 

I deplore his methods and also thinks his reasons are unjustifiable, and I honestly have trouble understanding how so many people think they are legit and understandable reasons to do something. But, actually I do understand, because our current world rewards people who lust for power/privilege/money. I guess if we lived in a world where the pursuit of avoiding prophecies/fortune tellers was considered worthwhile, Cersei's actions would get endlessly justified by fans. 

P.s. Just to compare to a character I do understand the justifications for, both Daenerys and Jon Snow constantly think about doing the best for others. Now not all their actions are motivated by this, but at least they do think about it a lot. I don't think Tywin has ever once thought about what is best for others. He could care less. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[frenin]

On 11/16/2023 at 11:55 PM, Dofs said:

He absolutely could.

Well both could.

 

On 11/16/2023 at 11:55 PM, Dofs said:

I've never seen Cersei being blamed to this level.

I have.

 

On 11/16/2023 at 11:55 PM, Dofs said:

when she clearly did.

How do we know that?? Cersei is perfectly capable of doing and saying that. Why would she lie?

 

 

On 11/17/2023 at 11:14 AM, Alester Florent said:

It seems fairly clear that the scene wasn't written as rape and I don't think it was generally viewed as such by readers before the TV show screwed it up.

I mean, we're talking about Martin here, he also doesn't believe Drogo rapes Dany.

The scene was what it was, before even Season 4.

I somewhat agree with OP but i feel like both the books, the fandom and the author has made the Jaime - Cersei dynamic terrible, it's un uphill battle.

Martin has gone out of his way of excusing every bad action Jaime has done, it'll never cease to amaze me how he gave an attachment to his children as reason to push Bran out of the window... an attachment Martin himself wrote was nonexistent till after he loses his hand, then he says Cersei doesn't really love her children... 

[Lee-Sensei]

17 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

Oh, yes, aborting the children of the man who raped you repeatedly because you are too traumatized by the experience to have his children and choosing with whom she wants to actually have children is the most serious and heinous crime someone can ever commit! Yeah, she did it "out of spite" and out of lust for power (even though she was already the Queen but whatever). Apparently, according to you, she should just accept that she would be raped for the rest of her life and shouldn't bitch about it because it's not a big deal, apparently, otherwise, if she wants revenge for it, she is "spiteful"! For the record, I really, really don't care how much Robert suffered because of Cersei's actions and I don't understand why I am supposed to feel any sympathy for a man who repeatedly raped his wife when said wife does something bad to him in return but I should vilify the raped wife.

And yes, the law is sexist because even if she was just cheating on him, she would have been executed but the same doesn't apply for Robert. This means that she had no other choice but to lie about the parentage of the children, otherwise they would be executed. So, she a woman, traumatized by years of rape, who doesn't want to bear her rapist's children because she is too traumatized, has no opportunity to escape from her abusive marriage and wants to protect her children from her husband. Yeah, let's blame her for everything bad which happens and not the actual mastermind who orchestrated all the events, so the war could break out in the first place.

And Ned's kindness was just "Go away, but remember that Robert is going to send assassins after you and your children". Considering the network of spies Varys had, Cersei and her children would have eventually been found and killed, so I really don't blame her for staying in the capital and dealing with anyone who would endanger their lives because she had no other choice and ned could have accepted her deal. Ned is really stuck-up in terms of following his culture's perceptions of morality which is demonstrated when he literally hates Jaime for killing the Mad King because it's "dishonorable" and wants him punished, so he is only doing it because Robert is his buddy and because he has adopted the sexist views of Westeros where he believest that if a woman cheats on her husband, she should be executed.

1) "Because she was traumatized." Lol. No. She did it because she's a power hungry narcissist that wanted to steal the throne and destroy his family. And yes. Lying to someone about the paternity of "his" children is evil. You don't have to feel sympathy for Robert. You can hate him. People are entitled to their own feelings about that. Cersei's kids are all going to die and Robert's bastards will carry on his legacy and inherit Storms End, so there's a bit of karma there. Unfortunately, since Tommen and Myrcella don't deserve to die because their mother was a bad person. But it's happening. Joffrey's already dead and Myrcella was maimed. That's on Cersei.

2) Because there are biological differences between men and women and no paternity tests. Yes. Different things are treated differently. Not that it matters, since Cersei deliberately denied him heirs and tried to defraud the Baratheon's knowing that she'd be starting a war. Being the queen was conditional on fulfilling her duties btw.

3) Go away with gold to hire protection and Jaime Lannister. A kinder fate than she deserved since what she did was punishable by death. And Ned's mercy got his people killed. Then Cersei tossed him in a dungeon even though he tried to protect her children. She's just a bad person. No. He's did it because it was the right thing to do and he even tried to spare her life. She was just ungrateful, selfish and power hungry.

17 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

She was forced to marry him by her father. It's not like she could refuse and she couldn't just divorce him or whatever. And I don't give a single hint of damn what she did to the man who raped her over the course of 13 years, you are not going to make me feel sympathy over Robert being lied to by the woman whom he raped and ruined mentally over the course of years. And why should he know the paternity of "his" children? So, he could murder them all and commit child murder on top of the rape for the "crime" of not being sired by him?

And yet in the chapter where Cersei and Jaime try to murder Bran to cover up their crimes, she expresses fear that Robert would set her aside for another woman. Why? Wouldn't Robert setting her aside be a good thing? That way she could get away from that drunken brute. Or maybe she wanted to marry the king, because it would give her the most power.

[Lee-Sensei]

16 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Why not?  Who can force her to say "I do"?  She can say "I don't".  Or can threaten to say "I don't" in which case the ceremony will not even be held, because Tywin will want to avoid the embarrassment.  There is this entire ceremony designed to ensure that the parties consent.  When exactly did Tywin hold a crossbow to her head?  Or was Cersei merely worried that Tywin could cut her allowance in half?

To add to what you're saying, Sansa said this about Lysa trying to force her to marry Robert Arryn.

Quote

I will tell my aunt that I don’t want to marry Robert. Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows.

 

[boltons are sick]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Both Tywin and Cersei are unquestionably bad people. They both deserve to be in the "Near Pure Evil" wiki (and Cersei is only not...because of the show, not the books. If the show didn't exist, she would be there too).

No, both book Cersei and show Cersei had separate discussions and it was decided that neither version qualifies as Near Pure Evil. Show Cersei and book Cersei even have two separate pages on the Inconsistently Heinous due to the differences between the versions but both versions are still listed as Inconsistently Heinous.

There are many cases where different versions of the same character are on different wikis. For examples of this from ASOIAF and GOT, show Littlefinger is Pure Evil but book Littlefinger is Near Pure Evil and show Walder Frey is Pure Evil but book Walder Frey is Near Pure Evil. 

Outside of this franchise, Saruman's versions from the live-action LOTR films and the old animated film are Pure Evil, but his version from the original books is Near Pure Evil.

So, no, it's not because of the show. Cersei simply belongs to the same moral scaling as Tyrion (who is the only other ASOIAF character from the books who is listed as Inconsistently Heinous) because she has too many preventions (Near Pure Evil characters can have up to 4 preventions, while Cersei has more than that) and because her tragedy is way too big and played for sympathy too much for her to be Near Pure Evil even if that was her only prevention.

Edited November 19, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Lee-Sensei]

3 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

No, both book Cersei and show Cersei had separate discussions and it was decided that neither version qualifies as Near Pure Evil. Show Cersei and book Cersei have two separate pages on the Inconsistently Heinous due to the differences between the versions but both versions were discussed separately.

There are many cases where different versions of the same character are on different wikis. For examples of this from ASOIAF and GOT, show Littlefinger is Pure Evil but book Littlefinger is Near Pure Evil and show Walder Frey is Pure Evil but book Walder Frey is Near Pure Evil. 

Outside of this franchise, Saruman's versions from the live-action LOTR films and the old animated film are Pure Evil, but his version from the original books is Near Pure Evil.

So, no, it's not because of the show. Cersei simply belongs to the same moral scaling as Tyrion (who is the only other ASOIAF character from the books who is listed as Inconsistently Heinous) because she has too many preventions (Near Pure Evil characters can have up to 4 preventions, while Cersei has more than that) and because her tragedy is way too big and played for sympathy too much for her to be Near Pure Evil.

Walder Frey is a scummy little weasel, but I don't think that he's as bad as Cersei.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[boltons are sick]

17 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Walder Frey is a scummy little weasel, but I don't think that he's as bad as Cersei.

The Red Wedding is one of the most horrific events anyone has organized in the history of Westeros where 3500 are butchered and he does this by breaking the guest right which is one of the most sacred tradition the Westerosi uphold. And in the show he throws away his wife and allows her to be killed while in the books he does this to his grandson. He also does all of this with a lot less political power compared to many other characters (yes, how much power someone has when they commit their atrocities is taken into account when deciding if their actions are bad enough and people with less power are not expected to commit the same crimes as people with more power to pass the heinous standard). His excuse is also incredibly weak and petty in both versions (feeling disrespected that Robb broke his wedding vows) unlike Cersei's excuse. So, yes, Walder passes the heinous standard in both continuities.

The only reason why he is not Pure Evil in the books is because that version seems to care about some members of his family.

So, morally speaking, he is worse than Cersei in both versions.

Edited November 19, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

See, I think the problem is...Tywin's means also don't justify the means. You said, can I imagine a world where everyone justified atrocities based on a fortune teller? Well, I can imagine a world where the rich/powerful justify everything they do based on wanting to be in charge of everything and exert their power over everyone...because it's this world. It's our actual world. And to be blunt, I think it is just as unjustifiable as basing things on a fortune teller. "I want to be in charge and make everyone do what I want them to do," is not....a compelling reason from my point of view for someone to excuse atrocities. 

I deplore his methods and also thinks his reasons are unjustifiable, and I honestly have trouble understanding how so many people think they are legit and understandable reasons to do something. But, actually I do understand, because our current world rewards people who lust for power/privilege/money. I guess if we lived in a world where the pursuit of avoiding prophecies/fortune tellers was considered worthwhile, Cersei's actions would get endlessly justified by fans. 

P.s. Just to compare to a character I do understand the justifications for, both Daenerys and Jon Snow constantly think about doing the best for others. Now not all their actions are motivated by this, but at least they do think about it a lot. I don't think Tywin has ever once thought about what is best for others. He could care less. 

The thing with Tywin is that we've seen what happens when he was allowed to run Westeros without meaningful interference, and it was almost universally recognised as a golden age of peace and prosperity with rainbows and happy bunnies and etc. In Tywin's mind, I have no doubt that creating examples of the agents who threatened his rule (the Reynes, Tarbecks, Darklyns etc.) was necessary in order to ensure that lasting peace, and so on. Was it actually necessary? Probably not. But there is a chain of reasoning there with a worthwhile goal.

We see what Cersei does when allowed to run Westeros without meaningful interference, and the first thing she does is literally set something on fire.

I don't consider Tywin to be a sympathetic character. He is a pragmatic but unnecessarily cruel man. Cersei lacks his pragmatism and retains only his cruelty. Overall, then, I consider Cersei to be worse, albeit both of them are awful.

Quote

He could care less. 

I'll defer to David Mitchell on this.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

32 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

The Red Wedding is one of the most horrific events anyone has organized in the history of Westeros where 3500 are butchered and he does this by breaking the guest right which is one of the most sacred tradition the Westerosi uphold. And in the show he throws away his wife and allows her to be killed while in the books he does this to his grandson. He also does all of this with a lot less political power compared to many other characters (yes, how much power someone has when they commit their atrocities is taken into account when deciding if their actions are bad enough and people with less power are not expected to commit the same crimes as people with more power to pass the heinous standard). His excuse is also incredibly weak and petty in both versions (feeling disrespected that Robb broke his wedding vows) unlike Cersei's excuse. So, yes, Walder passes the heinous standard in both continuities.

The only reason why he is not Pure Evil in the books is because that version seems to care about some members of his family.

So, morally speaking, he is worse than Cersei in both versions.

Bruh. If you think it's underhanded to pretend to be someone's friend and then kill them (and it is), how much more underhanded is it to lie to someone about the paternity of their children and then murder them and try to murder their entire family including their children (Barra was a baby)?

Edited November 19, 2023 by Lee-Sensei