A nice post I found on Tumblr which elaborates on the Madonna/whore complex the fandom has regarding Jaime and Cersei's relationship.

[Dofs]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

If someone has a goal to make a family business that goes on for generations and generations, and then they 1. Don't give any of their other family members responsibilities (except I guess their brother), 2. Ignore what the other family members want. If they tell them they don't want to work at the business, just try to force them to work at the business, 3. Someone else wants to work at the business, but you don't let them work at the business, and 4. Tell one person you hate them all the time while kind of half-assedly letting them work at the business, but also then later fire them when the opportunity presents itself.....then your goal was not actually to run a family business. Your goal was to run a "you" business. You ignored the most important part of the family business...the family part. 

Tywin doesn't try. He fails spectacularly because he doesn't actually try ...except if he is in absolute charge and control. And he quickly, and I mean quickly, gives up on others if they don't do exactly what he tells them to do. He cares about Tywin's legacy, Tywin's idea of wht the Lannisters should be, and Tywin's power/control of the Lannister name/legacy. 

It's not just that he fails to get what he wants....he doesn't do any of the necessary things to succeed if he actually wanted that. The things he does do....would lead to the result that happened. 

Definitely not due to a lack of trying, lol. No, he doesn't try at all to instill those goals. He just says them, order people to do those things, and never makes any other attempts to do anything that isn't just ordering others around. That isn't trying to do something, that is just being a jackass controlling piece of shit. Let me try to reach my goals of getting my Masters degree by just yelling at professors to teach me better, ordering them to accept me into the school without any reason for them to accept me, and then when I fail to get a degree, be like : Welp, I tried. 

Technically you are correct, that would be "trying", but...in a more real way..it wouldn't. Because that is expressly not how you would ever reach that goal. It is however how you would reach a different goal (i.e. Tywin being in control of everything). 

What I see here is you using a huge power of hindsight and essentially describing what you would do in Tywin's place in order to reach his goals, concluding that you would do it differently, and because of that are claiming that Tywin's must have had completely different goals altogether.

But you are not Tywin, if you think that Tywin did something wrong, that doesn't in any way mean that Tywin would think so himself. In fact, you are describing Tywin's main flaw pretty well, is that he sees his family as a political unit of a House, instead of collective of (mostly) related people who care about each other. And that he doesn't see people in his children behind the political roles they were born into. That's his problem and the entire reason of his downfall. But because he failed at something doesn't mean he didn't want it in the first place. Characters can have biases, be wrong and have their flaws be their biggest hindrances in achieving their goals. Tywin, while being a very good at achieving his goals on the political side, got blindsided by simple human relations within his own family. And that's his flaw.

If you can explain something by stupidity, mistakes or ignorance, don't just go and conclude that it's malice or on purpose. That's my advice for real life too.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Dofs

[Dofs]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Same applies to Jaime then.

Nah, it doesn't.

[Dofs]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I agree. I have said before that I think underneath it all, Jaime is fundamentally and instinctually a good and decent person who has learned how to be a bad one (mainly, though not exclusively, from Tywin and Cersei). The Bran incident almost highlights this. Pushing Bran out of the window may well have been the worst thing he ever did, in a period when he was at pretty much his lowest moral ebb, but even at that moment, his instinct, his first reaction, was to save him.

He doesn't need an angel on his shoulder to set him right, rather he just needs to rediscover his own nature. Brienne was a useful catalyst in bringing him back to himself, but she wasn't the only thing going on at the time, and he doesn't need her hanging around in order to improve: he just needs to be free from Cersei's and Tywin's influence, because the power to be better has been within him all along.

Agree, and him getting free from Cersei's and Tywin's influence (or more like, from him allowing them to influence him) is really the main driver of all the other changes we see in Jaime. When Jaime lost his hand and he was ready to die, Brienne called him a craven. That really hurt his pride and he suddenly realized how pathetic his life even was for him to think he was so worthless without his swordhand, he might as well just stop living. Ironically, it was also his pride the set him on a better path. He became adamant to prove that he wasn't just a swordhand, and that required for him to start thinking for himself and do what he wants, and not Tywin or Cersei. But, as you said, fundamentally Jaime is a good and decent person, so doing what he wants automatically makes him a better person overall.

Shedding influence of others is probably the core of Jaime's arc overall. That's what the last sentences of his last aSoS chapter are all about:

Quote

 

Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.

Whatever he chose . . .

 

Jaime is becoming his own man, doing what his heart chooses, not what anyone else "writes" for him. This, ironically, includes Brienne too, this line wouldn't make much sense if all he did was changing the source of people telling him what to do, from Cersei/Tywin to Brienne.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Dofs

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Nah, it doesn't.

Why you reckon Jaime is so over the heels with Cersei then?

Or do you believe Cersei is the only narcissistic twin?

[Dofs]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why you reckon Jaime is so over the heels with Cersei then?

Or do you believe Cersei is the only narcissistic twin?

Exactly. There is no proof anywhere in Jaime's POV chapters that he loves Cersei because she looks like him. There are loads of examples from Cersei's POVs that she loves him because of that, though.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Dofs

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Exactly

Ah okay, Jaime "let's show the realm we too are above gods and men" Lannister is def not a narcissist.

 

4 minutes ago, Dofs said:

There is no proof anywhere in Jaime's POV chapters that he loves Cersei because she looks like him.

Tyrion himself doubts that.

Why do you think he loves her? What's the reasoning Jaime gives according to you?

 

[Dofs]

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ah okay, Jaime "let's show the realm we too are above gods and men" Lannister is def not a narcissist.

Yeah, when he though that, it was in the context of him wondering how can he marry Cersei openly, and the most obvious way was to simply copy the Targaryens.

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tyrion himself doubts that.

Why do you think he loves her? What's the reasoning Jaime gives according to you?

And Tyrion is simply wrong.

We saw from Jaime's POV that firstly, she was hot, and secondly, he more of projected an idea of his perfect partner on to her.

My additional interpretation would be that he also viewed her as his partner from when they were experimenting as children, so he never really even imagined of not being with her in the first place. She was his partner by default.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Dofs

[Bendric Dayne]

Yeah idk, I find the OP kind of silly (not the person who reposted it, but the actual original post, the person who reposted has made some good points in the replies, some of which with I agree, and others with which I do not). I just have to ask myself what the point of it is? It seems to me like they're just trying to say that if you find Jaime's story compelling, and if you dislike Cersei, then you're sexist because actually Jaime's story is a Madonna/whore complex trope thing (which it isn't) so you have to be sexist.

It's kind of like a post a few months ago (which at least had more of an argument behind it) asking if Dany was a white savior. Like, maybe?? But what's the point they're trying to make? That you have to be racist if you like Dany's story? Or that Dany's story is racist? Or that the author is racist for writing Dany's story like that? Again, this one with Dany is at least arguable, but in the end both of these ignore a few things set up by the author in order to fit the stories in question into these particular tropes. Like how Dany ain't white because white isn't a race the author established to exist in this world, she's Valyrian. If Valyrians would have been described as having dark skin instead of white, the story would be exactly the same, yet no one would ask if Dany is a white savior. 

Or how Brienne and Jaime are both complex characters who the author placed together since they are different so that they can challenge each other's ideas, learn from each other, and grow as characters. Nah let's ignore the fact that Brienne is a character and just say that she's there to serve Jaime's arc. Which, if that was the case, would that really be so problematic? There are tons of stories with main characters surrounded by supporting characters who are only there to serve the arc of the main character. This doesn't seem to be a problem when the supporting characters are male. It's funny, if a story has too many male characters, people complain because there are not enough female characters. When stories have a more balanced number of male/female characters, they complain because some of the female characters are in a supporting role which is 'sexist'. I mean, it obviously does happen where female characters are portrayed in a sexist manner, and that is obviously wrong, but when we start pulling at straws and ignoring story elements in order to shoehorn a certain aspect of a given story into a sexist trope, we can come up with all sorts of conclusions for all sorts of stories. If Brienne was just a story element to make Jaime better, and if she was male instead, would there be any problem here? So who's discriminating based on gender then? (In other words, if the problem that the OP has with Jaime's story is that Brienne is a woman, then they're the one with a gender issue).

As for Jaime being likeable and Cersei being unlikeable, this is GRRM's intention and he's a great writer, so it's easy for him to compel us to what he wants us to. It's pretty simple, for all the terrible things Jaime has done, he's in a redemption arc fueled by something terrible happening to him, which is compelling. Cersei has done arguably worse things and is not in a redemption arc. Sure the last thing that happened to her in the books is terrible and made me feel bad for her, but there is no indication of a redemption arc for her as of yet, so I really have no reason to be rooting for her. Maybe this will change in the next book. 

Yeah her motivation to protect her children is compelling, but it only gets her so far. IMO her actions are fueled more by her pride than anything else. Which is great character work from GRRM. Like don't get me wrong I love reading Cersei chapters and analyzing her character, she's just also a terrible, spiteful, manipulating, and petty person who has few redeeming qualities. If she were only motivated by her need to protect her children she would be more compelling, but in the end her pride motivates more of her actions than protecting her children does. For example, if she wanted to protect her children, she would have ran away with them when Ned confronted her, counting herself lucky that Ned even decided to give her that mercy. Yet she's too proud and would not accept defeat to the Starks, so she has stayed in KL and it has cost her her firstborn and it will cost her her other 2 children. So her only redeeming quality which is her love of her children and cause to protect them, falls short because she constantly puts her pride above all else. It's not that her children need to be safe, but they need to be safe and in KL putting her in a position of power which she is proud of. When it comes down to choosing one or the other... well we saw what happened to Joffrey. 

It's just silly to say that it's sexist to dislike Cersei and not Tyrion or Jaime because they are all the same, when that is just not the case. I'd say Jaime and Tyrion are more like Dany. She isn't perfect and one could define her as ruthless, but she is also just and kind and caring. In his redemption, Jaime also becomes more just and kind and caring whilst also being ruthless. And it's the same with Tyrion. (Sure Tyrion and Jaime have probably done worse things than Dany so far, but my point stands). Dany and Cersei are both ruthless, but Cersei does not have the redeeming qualities that Dany has. And guess what, most of the fandom finds Dany to be a compelling character. So I don't really think the issue here is that people like Tyrion and Jaime because they are men and dislike Cersei because she is a woman. They dislike Cersei because she isn't likeable and has very little qualities that make her compelling. 

It's just such a modern day thing to pick apart stories where there is a woman and look for ways it can be construed as sexist. Or to pick apart a story with a minority race and look for ways it can be construed as racist. Yet, when stories have neither, they're sexist/racist for excluding them. And when they make sure to include women/minorities for the sake of diversity and make these characters so bland that they cannot be accused of being portrayed in a sexist/racist fashion in a story that is so boring because of it, then they are applauded for being inclusive and any critics are sexist/racist for not liking the incredibly boring story. 

I'm not denying that some people will dislike female characters who are not a certain way, or that this fandom is devoid of such people. But to say that disliking Cersei and not Jaime/Tyrion makes this fandom sexist is just silly because this fandom has so much love of so many great female characters that GRRM has written. Like idk, maybe give us the benefit of the doubt?

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Yeah, when he though that, it was in the context of him wondering how can he marry Cersei openly, and the most obvious way was to simply copy the Targaryens.

Oh I know the context, it is still the definition of narcissistic.

 

9 minutes ago, Dofs said:

And Tyrion is simply wrong.

Sure he is.

 

9 minutes ago, Dofs said:

We saw from Jaime's POV that firstly, she was hot, and secondly, he more of projected an idea of his perfect partner on to her.

That's what see from Jaime's POV? What's the projection he makes? Because she seems to like everything about Cersei, not the "idea of her" and they seemed to be quite alike, especially Kingslayer Jaime.

He likes his nearly identical twin because "she's hot"...  And he has no interest in other women, just on his very hot nearly identical twin... What are the odds? If only there was a term for that.

.

 

[Dofs]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Oh I know the context, it is still the definition of narcissistic.

I am not convinced you know the context though. Or that you want to know it.

Jaime is also a guy that thought he became so worthless when he lost his swordhand, there was no point to live anymore. What a huge narcissist, am I right, lmao?

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sure he is.

Glad you agree.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's what see from Jaime's POV? What's the projection he makes? Because she seems to like everything about Cersei, not the "idea of her" and they seemed to be quite alike, especially Kingslayer Jaime.

And yet, Jaime thinks this about her:

"I thought that I was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, but all the time she was the Stranger, hiding her true face from my gaze."

Coming back to us not reading the same books...

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

He likes his nearly identical twin because "she's hot"...  And he has no interest in other women, just on his very hot nearly identical twin... What are the odds? If only there was a term for that.

What do you mean he has no interest in other women? He does.

[frenin]

Just now, Dofs said:

I am not convinced you know the context though. Or that you want to know it.

Perhaps the Starks and Stannis had done us a kindness by spreading the tale yadda yadda yadda, now i can marry Cersei openly, yeah Joffrey will totally still keep the throne, we ought to marry him and Myrcella to show everyone who's boss.

A most deluded rant.

What's not to know exactly?

 

5 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Jaime is also a guy that thought he became so worthless when he lost his swordhand, there was no point to live anymore. What a huge narcissist, am I right, lmao?

Yeah, he lost the very thing his identity revolved around. If Cersei gets disfigured horribly, she too will think she's worthless.

Prior that tho...

 

6 minutes ago, Dofs said:

And yet, Jaime thinks this about her:

"I thought that I was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, but all the time she was the Stranger, hiding her true face from my gaze."

Coming back to us not reading the same books...

Indeed, what do you think Jaime is saying there other than him being bitter about her sleeping with other men?

 

9 minutes ago, Dofs said:

What do you mean he has no interest in other women? He does.

Certainly, he gets an erection when seeing Brienne and reflects that he has spend too much time away from his sister.

What are the other women he shows interests on? 

Don't you find quite odd that someone would find hot his nearly identical twin, to the point of infatuation? Do you truly believe it's just "because they find each other hot"

11 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Glad you agree.

Indeed, Tyrion knows his brother well enough but if you say he's wrong, he is wrong.

[Alester Florent]

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

Certainly, he gets an erection when seeing Brienne and reflects that he has spend too much time away from his sister.

What are the other women he shows interests on? 

Don't you find quite odd that someone would find hot his nearly identical twin, to the point of infatuation? Do you truly believe it's just "because they find each other hot"

It's because Jaime has a completely fucked-up relationship with sex, having been conditioned from a very early (prepubescent) age to desire Cersei to the exclusion of all other women. Remember how jealous Cersei is: the mere suggestion that Melara dreamed of marrying him was enough for Cersei to murder her. At the same time as he swears off women, Cersei is using her sexuality to manipulate him, so that it never seems to occur to him (well, not for a long time, anyway) that she isn't basically an exception to the vows he swore. He may experience arousal regarding other women but his head is such a mess he finds those feelings uncomfortable and confusing. In his mind, he's not heterosexual, he's effectively Cersei-sexual, and he's probably exactly as repressed about his heterosexuality as your average repressed gay/bi conservative.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

If you are going to argue that Cersei is evil, you have to also call Jaime and Tyrion (who has done just as bad things as Cersei) evil. I am really pissed off by the double standard that people apply. All three of the Lannister siblings have done bad things, all three have redeeming qualities, all three have excuses for their actions, but apparently only Cersei is the "evil" one while her brothers are "morally grey" or whatever. Most of Cersei's actions are motivated by a desire to protect her kids while Tyrion for instance doesn't even have that as an excuse, yet he is not "evil apparently. I am tired of people constantly excusing her brothers for similarly bad behaviour while throwing Cersei under the bus.

I am going to call out this double standard whenever i encounter it. Either all three of them are evil or none of them is evil.

No I don't. It's not a double standard. I have the same standards. Cersei just obviously acts the most selfishly of the three of them. She doesn't do anything to redeem/offset her negative actions. And finally she does worse things than them. 

1. Giving women to Qyburn to be tortured to death is honestly one of the worst actions in the book. It is ...disturbing at the very least, and she does it casually. 

2. She attempts to get a woman murdered (Margerry) who is her daughter-in-law. Margerry did absolutely jack-shit nothing to deserve this. Nothing. There is no actual motivation for doing this other than jealousy/paranoia. She just tries to get her ally killed for no reason. 

3. Cersei doesn't do anything positive/selfless for anyone in the books. If you say something about her children....name for something she does for Tommen/Myrcella that is actually actively positive/selfless and not her being motivated to stop a prophecy (which is self preservation, not selfless at all). I am not saying Cersei doesn't love her children like some people do, I think she does. However, ...she doesn't actually ever do any like heroic thing. Both Tyrion and Jaime do. 

4. Jaime has a character arc, you know? He gets better in that character arc. We are in his head and he thinks constantly about trying to be better. More honorable. I do not think Jaime is a great person...but he obviously has more motivation to help others than either Cersei or Tyrion. 

5. Tyrion does some downright evil things, however, he balances it with positive actions (hence why he is considered grey). He saves Sansa from Joffrey. He saves Aegon from the Grey Man. He saves Jorah by keeping him with him (even though Ser Jorah treated Tyrion like crap). He kept Penny with him and helped her to some extent (even if that is his own guilt, he still got her out of slavery). He helped out Bran and Jon Snow. Also, another note, but Tyrion also...feels much worse about the bad things he does. Like, he actually thinks, "Well that was horrible." He feels guilt that Cersei does not, and to an extent Jaime does not. 

See, it's not a double standard at all. In fact, I'd argue YOU have the double standard. You give Cersei every break you can find, but you don't apply the same to Jaime and Tyrion. Jaime running to save Brienne, or Tyrion's actions with Bran (giving him the saddle) or with Jon Snow on the wall (the friendship and advise)....are outright obviously much more selfless acts than anything Cersei does in the books. Not once does she act in that selfless of a way. Not once. Just like her father (you thought I would get through this without dragging Tywin! No way. Tywin is the worst!!!!!) Like father like daughter, lol. Tywin would hate this comparison, which makes me like it even more. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

What I see here is you using a huge power of hindsight and essentially describing what you would do in Tywin's place in order to reach his goals, concluding that you would do it differently, and because of that are claiming that Tywin's must have had completely different goals altogether.

But you are not Tywin, if you think that Tywin did something wrong, that doesn't in any way mean that Tywin would think so himself. In fact, you are describing Tywin's main flaw pretty well, is that he sees his family as a political unit of a House, instead of collective of (mostly) related people who care about each other. And that he doesn't see people in his children behind the political roles they were born into. That's his problem and the entire reason of his downfall. But because he failed at something doesn't mean he didn't want it in the first place. Characters can have biases, be wrong and have their flaws be their biggest hindrances in achieving their goals. Tywin, while being a very good at achieving his goals on the political side, got blindsided by simple human relations within his own family. And that's his flaw.

If you can explain something by stupidity, mistakes or ignorance, don't just go and conclude that it's malice or on purpose. That's my advice for real life too.

I like your argument actually. You convinced me. Something rarely said on this forum lol. But you convinced me.

Fair enough, BUT STILL i say Tywin has two goals then, one can your idea (family prestige) but his goal is also to be in control of everything. 

[Dofs]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Perhaps the Starks and Stannis had done us a kindness by spreading the tale yadda yadda yadda, now i can marry Cersei openly, yeah Joffrey will totally still keep the throne, we ought to marry him and Myrcella to show everyone who's boss.

A most deluded rant.

What's not to know exactly?

You are perfectly aware what's not to know, you just choose to ignore it.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Yeah, he lost the very thing his identity revolved around. If Cersei gets disfigured horribly, she too will think she's worthless.

Prior that tho...

Oh, really, are you sure, haha?

Besides, I remember Jaime was supposed to genuinely feel he was above others due to his lineage, yet his family name was still with him when he lost his sword hand and he felt worthless.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Indeed, what do you think Jaime is saying there other than him being bitter about her sleeping with other men?

 

What do you think Jaime meant when he said Kevan wasn't as blind about her as he was? That she tends to sleep with other men?

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Certainly, he gets an erection when seeing Brienne and reflects that he has spend too much time away from his sister.

What are the other women he shows interests on? 

Why the hell would Brienne somehow not count? There was also Pia a day after Brienne. He also remember how he in his teen days he found Tully sisters hot, especially Catelyn. He can get aroused and sees other women just fine. He just chooses not to act on it.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Don't you find quite odd that someone would find hot his nearly identical twin, to the point of infatuation? Do you truly believe it's just "because they find each other hot"

I think I have already elaborated on that. It's not only but including the fact that he found her hot. You can ask me how many leading questions you want, the books are pretty clear once we are inside Jaime's head that narcissism is not the reason Jaime loves Cersei. 

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Indeed, Tyrion knows his brother well enough but if you say he's wrong, he is wrong.

I know Jaime much better than Tyrion does because I can read Jaime's thoughts and Tyrion can't.

8 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

It's because Jaime has a completely fucked-up relationship with sex, having been conditioned from a very early (prepubescent) age to desire Cersei to the exclusion of all other women. Remember how jealous Cersei is: the mere suggestion that Melara dreamed of marrying him was enough for Cersei to murder her. At the same time as he swears off women, Cersei is using her sexuality to manipulate him, so that it never seems to occur to him (well, not for a long time, anyway) that she isn't basically an exception to the vows he swore. He may experience arousal regarding other women but his head is such a mess he finds those feelings uncomfortable and confusing. In his mind, he's not heterosexual, he's effectively Cersei-sexual, and he's probably exactly as repressed about his heterosexuality as your average repressed gay/bi conservative.

I wouldn't really look at this from a negative point of view. The problem was the very fact that he decided Cersei to be his partner but once he did it, he simply was choosing to be faithful to his woman. Nothing wrong with that and with repressing his desires for other women in this instance.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Dofs

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

It's because Jaime has a completely fucked-up relationship with sex, having been conditioned from a very early (prepubescent) age to desire Cersei to the exclusion of all other women. Remember how jealous Cersei is: the mere suggestion that Melara dreamed of marrying him was enough for Cersei to murder her. At the same time as he swears off women, Cersei is using her sexuality to manipulate him, so that it never seems to occur to him (well, not for a long time, anyway) that she isn't basically an exception to the vows he swore. He may experience arousal regarding other women but his head is such a mess he finds those feelings uncomfortable and confusing. In his mind, he's not heterosexual, he's effectively Cersei-sexual, and he's probably exactly as repressed about his heterosexuality as your average repressed gay/bi conservative.

Cersei murders Melara because of the Maggie the Frog incident to keep her quiet. I have no idea where you got this idea, but it is not suggested in the book at all. 

Your second part is just wild, lol. Have you ever heard of something called monogamy? My goodness man. People are monogamous all the time, and they aren’t repressing their sexuality lol. I myself am in a monogamous relationship and I am not Lady of Raventree Hall-sexual just because I either don’t want to or even feel shame about arousal for other women. My feelings are indeed natural, but I am also making a conscious decision to be monogamous and it is not a repressed sexuality.

As someone who DID repress my identity for a long time, it is just not the same at all. 

PS - Also Cersei not being loyal is shitty. I just want to say that. They obviously agreed to be monogamous. It’s far less shitty than many other things in these books, but cheating does suck. 

[frenin]

15 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

It's because Jaime has a completely fucked-up relationship with sex, having been conditioned from a very early (prepubescent) age to desire Cersei to the exclusion of all other women. Remember how jealous Cersei is: the mere suggestion that Melara dreamed of marrying him was enough for Cersei to murder her. At the same time as he swears off women, Cersei is using her sexuality to manipulate him, so that it never seems to occur to him (well, not for a long time, anyway) that she isn't basically an exception to the vows he swore. He may experience arousal regarding other women but his head is such a mess he finds those feelings uncomfortable and confusing. In his mind, he's not heterosexual, he's effectively Cersei-sexual, and he's probably exactly as repressed about his heterosexuality as your average repressed gay/bi conservative.

I find this hard to believe, especially given the fact those two spent long periods of their formative years apart from each other, infant Cersei would need to be Lord Voldemort in order to completely submit Jaime to her will.

But i do agree that Cersei did manage to condition adult Jaime, he's trouble by the fact he got an erection for a woman not named Cersei.

 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

You are perfectly aware what's not to know, you just choose to ignore it.

What it is?

I know what Jaime says and the context in which he says it, it is still narcissistic as hell to say it. What do you call the Doctrine of Exceptionalism Jaime tried to imitate that quite literally meant the Targaryen were gods among men if not that?

 

 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Oh, really, are you sure, haha?

Besides, I remember Jaime was supposed to genuinely feel he was above others due to his lineage, yet his family name was still with him when he lost his sword hand and he felt worthless.

Quite.

Nah Jaime feels above others for a combination of who he is and he's skill in combat, he lost one of them, he lost his identity.

 

 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

What do you think Jaime meant when he said Kevan wasn't as blind about her as he was? That she tends to sleep with other men?

For the most part yeah.

And wasn't that Tyrion? Anyway, same thing regardless.

 

 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Why the hell would Brienne somehow not count?

I did not say she did not count, don't get so up in arms, i said Jaime reverted his thoughts back to Cersei pretty much inmediately.

 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

There was also Pia a day after Brienne. He also remember how he in his teen days he found Tully sisters hot, especially Catelyn.

Eeeh, noting someone is attractive=/ being interested in someone.

And i don't remember Jaime ever saying he found the Tully sisters hot lol, and no Jaime was not interested in the Tully sisters either, he was far more interested in Brynden and his stories.

 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

He can get aroused and sees other women just fine.

He has only ever gotten aroused by Cersei and Brienne, who btw he was thinking about and comparing with Brienne  when he got a boner.

 

 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

I think I have already elaborated on that. It's not only but including the fact that he found her hot. You can ask me how many leading questions you want, the books are pretty clear once we are inside Jaime's head that narcissism is not the reason Jaime loves Cersei. 

He found his own reflection hot, so much he became infatuated with him.

 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

I know Jaime much better than Tyrion does because I can read Jaime's thoughts and Tyrion can't.

You sure?

Tyrion believes Jaime find attractive Cersei because he saw his own reflection, you're saying he loves Cersei because he finds her hot... as if what he finds hot isn't a person who looks just like him.

I'm sure there's a term for that...

 

[Dofs]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

What it is?

I know what Jaime says and the context in which he says it, it is still narcissistic as hell to say it. What do you call the Doctrine of Exceptionalism Jaime tried to imitate that quite literally meant the Targaryen were gods among men if not that?

I've already said that Jaime wants to marry Cersei and just thinks of the most obvious way how because it was already done by others. That's all there is. Jaime at the point of thinking this doesn't care whatsoever about politics, how anyone perceives anything and what would anyone say about it. He simply wants to realize his lifelong dream of stopping to hide his relationship with Cersei because he really doesn't like hiding it. That's all there is, you can of course see whatever you want there, will not make it true though.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Quite.

You sure you are quite sure?

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Nah Jaime feels above others for a combination of who he is and he's skill in combat, he lost one of them, he lost his identity.

So... you are saying "Lannister" is not his identity?

5 hours ago, frenin said:

For the most part yeah.

What, Kevan wasn't blind to her cheating on Jaime? 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

And wasn't that Tyrion? Anyway, same thing regardless.

Was Kevan in my edition.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

I did not say she did not count, don't get so up in arms, i said Jaime reverted his thoughts back to Cersei pretty much inmediately.

You did say she doesn't count. And are still saying it in this very post.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Eeeh, noting someone is attractive=/ being interested in someone.

And what are you trying to say to me here?

5 hours ago, frenin said:

And i don't remember Jaime ever saying he found the Tully sisters hot lol, and no Jaime was not interested in the Tully sisters either, he was far more interested in Brynden and his stories.

The entire reason Jaime even remembered his visit to the Tullys was because someone said that Jaime was very lucky not to marry Lysa, and Jaime thought that she was actually pretty nice when she was young. And also remembered that Catelyn was even more interesting to him than Lysa. So yeah, they definitely got his attention, even if Brynden, one of his heroes, was the star for him during that visit.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

He has only ever gotten aroused by Cersei and Brienne, who btw he was thinking about and comparing with Brienne  when he got a boner.

Forgetting Pia.

Also, he was only ever gotten aroused by them that we know of.

So what if he compared Brienne to Cersei? What's your problem exactly?

5 hours ago, frenin said:

He found his own reflection hot, so much he became infatuated with him.

Nah.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

You sure?

That Tyrion didn't read Jaime's thoughts? Yeah, I am pretty sure.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Tyrion believes Jaime find attractive Cersei because he saw his own reflection, you're saying he loves Cersei because he finds her hot... as if what he finds hot isn't a person who looks just like him.

I believe I gave a more elaborate answer than just Cersei being hot.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

I'm sure there's a term for that...

And what is it?

Edited November 20, 2023 by Dofs

[SaffronLady]

9 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I've already said that Jaime wants to marry Cersei and just thinks of the most obvious way how because it was already done by others.

I think you and frenin have differing opinions on Jaime's breadth and clarity of thought when fantasizing.

[Dofs]

18 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I like your argument actually. You convinced me. Something rarely said on this forum lol. But you convinced me.

Fair enough, BUT STILL i say Tywin has two goals then, one can your idea (family prestige) but his goal is also to be in control of everything. 

Oh, wow, ok, haha.

I do see his controlling nature more of a character trait of his than an actual goal though.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Dofs