Who is dumber? Dunk or Victarion?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, sifth said:

You don’t think Dunk is also insanely lucky?

I actially don’t. He always ends up winning by doing some Flea Bottom shit, lol, and I dont think that is necessarily lucky. Also, other situations…he was unlucky. Aerion chose to attack the woman Dunk was watching and not some other random woman. Bennis of the Brownshield had to be an asshole and not act normal. He wandered to a tournament where there happened to be a secret plot, lol. That’s all UNLUCKY. 

[Sir Tumbleweed]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:08 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Eh, nah. Not fitting into a culture is not dumb. Like, at all. Now let’s talk abiut why Dunk isn’t stupid. 

So he attacked a prince, which you call dumb. I say no. He’s just a hero. He did what was right because he has very strong beliefs about what is right. Honestly its one of the most refreshing scenes in the book. You can call it dumb, I never will. 

It would be brave and heroic if he has considered the ramifications of attacking the prince and done so anyway, but from what I recall that never even occurred to him. He just saw an evil deed and acted upon it.

It would be brave and heroic and DUMB to not consider his survival rate when attacking a prince, and 'Mr. Magoo' his way through the whole scenario.

[sifth]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I actially don’t. He always ends up winning by doing some Flea Bottom shit, lol, and I dont think that is necessarily lucky. Also, other situations…he was unlucky. Aerion chose to attack the woman Dunk was watching and not some other random woman. Bennis of the Brownshield had to be an asshole and not act normal. He wandered to a tournament where there happened to be a secret plot, lol. That’s all UNLUCKY. 

Lucky that the Hand of the king is a kind person and is willing to risk his life to help him. Lucky, that his squire ends up being a prince and one with a lot of friends to help him. Lucky to randomly show up at a wedding, that ends up being a secret rebellion. Lucky that the guy he befriended at the wedding, is probably the new hand of the king, who's also trying to help him. So on and so on. Dunk, might not be very bright, but like Forest Gump, he's insanely lucky.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

It would be brave and heroic if he has considered the ramifications of attacking the prince and done so anyway, but from what I recall that never even occurred to him. He just saw an evil deed and acted upon it.

It would be brave and heroic and DUMB to not consider his survival rate when attacking a prince, and 'Mr. Magoo' his way through the whole scenario.

That is not about intelligence. This is just old school thinking that dismisses different kinds of intelligent. Again : Impulsive does mot = dumb. 

[Northern Sword]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

That is not about intelligence. This is just old school thinking that dismisses different kinds of intelligent. Again : Impulsive does mot = dumb. 

I don't know. Not being able to get to Step 2 of a dangerous decision before acting on it, isn't exactly a sign of intelligence. 

[Alester Florent]

8 hours ago, sifth said:

Lucky that the Hand of the king is a kind person and is willing to risk his life to help him.

He was however unfortunate that Daeron was discovered right around the time of his fight with Aerion rather than say a day or two later. And unlucky that, on the back of that, Aerion decided to revive a 200-year-old precedent to have a trial of seven rather than face him in single combat, in which case he wouldn't have needed Baelor's help anyway (except to the extent that it might not have occurred to Dunk to request trial by combat if Baelor hadn't suggested it).

He also wouldn't have needed Baelor's help in the trial if Steffon Fossoway hadn't betrayed him (Steffon might have recruited one additional knight, or otherwise Raymun would surely have stepped up, as he did in the event).

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Lucky, that his squire ends up being a prince and one with a lot of friends to help him.

It was Egg who got him into that mess in the first place, by running to Dunk and asking him to help the puppeteers rather than going to Baelor.

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Lucky to randomly show up at a wedding, that ends up being a secret rebellion.

I would call that unlucky!

Like Forrest, Dunk shows a remarkable tendency to be "in the room" when important things are happening, which one could consider good luck as it makes him a factor in those things and is ultimately the reason he becomes famous. But this cuts both ways: the luck is hardly all in his favour.

The luckiest thing that happened to him was meeting Egg in the first place. If that hadn't happened, he might or might not have been permitted to enter the Ashford tourney, might or might not have jousted, and would probably have been defeated in the first tilt, then go on to do a number of jobbing roles as a minor hedge knight, with nobody remembering his name.

[Aebram]

 

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Spotted Pate the pig boy was the hero of a thousand ribald stories: a good-hearted, empty-headed lout who always managed to best the fat lordlings, haughty knights, and pompous septons who beset him. Somehow his stupidity would turn out to have been a sort of uncouth cunning; the tales always ended with Spotted Pate sitting on a lord’s high seat or bedding some knight’s daughter. (Feast Prologue)

Pate isn't even a character; he is Westerosi folklore, a fictional character in a fictional world. It seems that the George likes this trope; so it's not surprising that he puts at least one of them in the story as a "real" character (if you'll pardon the expression).

I think Dunk fits this pattern well. I'm not so sure about Victarion; honestly, I don't understand why so many people here think he's dumb. As another reader pointed out, he is clearly a competent fighter, sailor, and leader; those are things that require some wits.

We've spent many hours debating whether various characters are good or evil. Now we get to debate whether they are smart or dumb. The George certainly likes his shades of gray.

[Sir Tumbleweed]

On 12/14/2023 at 7:36 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

That is not about intelligence. This is just old school thinking that dismisses different kinds of intelligent. Again : Impulsive does mot = dumb. 

Impulsive is alot closer to dumb than intelligent. And like you said, his old school thinking dismisses kinds of intelligence. I like Dunk as much as the next guy, but that was a smart decision? Mios Dios

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, Sir Tumbleweed said:

Impulsive is alot closer to dumb than intelligent. And like you said, his old school thinking dismisses kinds of intelligence. I like Dunk as much as the next guy, but that was a smart decision? Mios Dios

I challenge you to watch any movie in which the main plot requires quick impulsive decisions and tell me how the careful indecisive thinkers do (hint : they die. impulsive thinking is actually quite valuable, our society just devalues it. Hence why people with ADHD struggle a lot. Also, I think people with ADHD would actually.do quite well as hunter gatherers, but have no data to back that up. 

I was told quite specifically by ine friend that the reason be likes traveling with me is he feels like no matter how well planned thints are they go wrong, but I roll with the punches and adjust on the fly..while less impulsive friends struggle when things go awry. 

[The Commentator]

Victarion’s frame of reference is the sea means a large body of water. His ignorance shows up but it doesn’t mean he’s slow witted. Not necessarily. 

[Sir Tumbleweed]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:00 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I challenge you to watch any movie in which the main plot requires quick impulsive decisions and tell me how the careful indecisive thinkers do (hint : they die. impulsive thinking is actually quite valuable, our society just devalues it. Hence why people with ADHD struggle a lot. Also, I think people with ADHD would actually.do quite well as hunter gatherers, but have no data to back that up. 

I take your point, but I still think in this instance doing nothing would have been the more intelligent decision. He failed upwards.

Also - Books and movies are written that way to make an exciting and appealing story. I don't think clamming up and doing nothing is ever a 'smart' move, but acting without even a moment of forethought is not going to work out as often as it does in fiction. Agree to disagree?

[Alester Florent]

There's a difference between being decisive and being impulsive. Decisiveness is a virtue; impulsiveness is a liability.

Movies may fetishise impulsiveness in certain types of character, but IRL acting on impulse all the time tends to end just as badly as never making a decision at all does.

With that said, Dunk's coming to the rescue of the puppeteers was foolish, but virtuous, and that's the point. The smart thing to do would be to do nothing, but Dunk cares more about doing the right thing than the smart thing, and that's what makes him the "true knight" who wins respect from both the reader and the smallfolk.

Compare Steffon Fossoway, who was himself outraged at Aerion's actions, and came to the scene but critically didn't step in to help, and afterwards sold out his friend (and by extension, Aerion's victims) for a lordship. He still acts decisively, but not virtuously, and though he still profits from his actions, he ends up being despised by both characters on the page and readers.

[Mad King Bolton]

Neither Dunk nor Vic probably attended a lesson of formal education in their life.  Vic was born to a boat and learned his craft from day 1.  He's as smart a sailor or commander of a ship as you're like to see.  I wouldn't say he's a tactician, but he understands his strength and how to win a fight at sea with a fleet.  He also knows how to command men, reward them for loyalty, and how to read the environment (amongst other sea skills).  He won't win any spelling contests, but taking a lesson from Star Wars, I'm pretty sure anyone better at spelling than him who find themselves in a spelling contest with him would be thinking "let the Wookie win".

Dunk is lowborn and young and learning what he can to survive as a hedge knight.  The only thing he's got on his side are good genetics.  He isn't particularly smart but he's learned some street smarts to get by and has become good at reading people and how to stand up for himself (and others).  He's got integrity over smarts, but in his game, it's enough and he allies himself with smarter people.  Good move.