War Crimes in the Series

[SeanF]

War is hell, in this world as everywhere else. Martin drives home, through the perspectives of Arya, Jaime, and Brienne, just how ghastly the impact of the fighting is on the Smallfolk of Westeros, and through the POVs of Tyrion, Quentyn, Daenerys, just what it entails in the East.

Next to the actions of slavers, the atrocities ordered by Tywin Lannister are perhaps the worst. He sends forth Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Amory Lorch, Vargo Hoat and their reavers to savage the Riverlands. Ser Kevan promises to set the Riverlands ablaze, and  he is as good as his word. In Arya's subsequent chapters, we get to see what this means in practice. Children are murdered, women are raped, civilians are tortured and enslaved. For the Brave Companions, probably the worst of the soldiers employed by Tywin, war is nothing more than an excuse to enact their most depraved fantasies. They are the Westerosi equivalent to Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger. Tywin's record includes drowning women and children, and sacking a city that admitted his army peacefully. Almost certainly, he ordered the murder of Elia and her children.

In the North, Ramsay Bolton violates terms of surrender, in order to flay his captives. He keeps Theon as his plaything to torture him into virtual insanity. In the Riverlands, Walder Frey murders wedding guests and thousands of their soldiers. In the East, the Dothraki behave in similar manner to the chivalry of Westeros. The Ghiscari slaver elite revel in their own cruelty. This is a dark and depraved world.

Yet, atrocity is not one-sided. Jaime and Brienne encounter the tavern girls hanged from trees by Ser Marq Piper, because they lay with lions. Arya is horrified to learn that the men being left to rot in crow cages for their crimes are Karstark men, not Lannisters. Subsequently, she comes to the ruins of a village that was burnt to the ground by her grandfather, during Roberts Rebellion. Roose Bolton, even before he switches sides, is as cruel as any of Tywin's commanders, as he puts women in stocks to be raped, and allows the Brave Companions free rein to terrorise the population, in return for their changing sides. Robb pays the West back in kind for Lannister work.  While I very much doubt if Robb ever gives orders that are as cruel as Tywin's, pillaging, burning, and raiding, on the part of people who have a long list of scores to pay off, is never going to be pleasant.

This is not, however, a universe that completely lacks standards in war. Ser Davos is able to persuade Stannis that sacking Crab Island, due to the defection of its lord, would be an evil and cowardly act. Stannis we learn (and even someone as brutal as Randyll Tarly), gelds rapists among his men. Taking (high-born) prisoners for ransom, rather than killing or mutilating them (although these things happen), is common; Robb Stark executes Lord Karstark and his men for murdering prisoners. Asha Greyjoy is told by the Maester of Deepwood Motte, that she has nothing to fear from surrendering to Stannis, because she has behaved decently towards her prisoners. Even a dullard and a brute like Victarion feels disgust at the sight of his brother tormenting prisoners. Everyone views the Red Wedding with horror and contempt.

It goes without saying that what constitutes a war crime in the modern Western world would not necessarily amount to one in Westeros, but I do think the concept of war crimes does exist. I would suggest these would be:-

Breach of guest-right
Murder of prisoners whose surrender has been accepted by a commander
Torture as a form of recreation
Rape
Sacking a town that has surrendered, on terms.
Violation of the terms of surrender.

What do other readers think?

[SaffronLady]

Deleted Stark Hater Joke once existed here

Does breaking the King's Peace count as a war crime, or a crime of making war?

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Deleted Stark Hater Joke once existed here

Does breaking the King's Peace count as a war crime, or a crime of making war?

I doubt if it’s considered a war crime, per se.  There seems an expectation that lords will resort to arms, on occasion, to resolve disputes with each other.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I doubt if it’s considered a war crime, per se.  There seems an expectation that lords will resort to arms, on occasion, to resolve disputes with each other.

I think there are differences between trial by combat, massed melee, and outright private warfare. Not that the Martin ever cared to specify, but if there wasn't appeals to trial by combat could be lumped as an extra crime on the convicted as breaking the KP, methinks.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

It goes without saying that what constitutes a war crime in the modern Western world would not necessarily amount to one in Westeros, but I do think the concept of war crimes does exist. I would suggest these would be:-

Breach of guest-right

Breach of guest right is something that is a huge sin in any case, independent of the question if there is a war going on or not. We could even say that guests and hosts usually are not at war, else they would not be visiting each other. In a war scenario we would more have a scenario where people breach the peace at a negotiation meeting. A most heinous crime there would have been the murder of the Young Dragon under a flag of truce. Although not breaking of guest right as a guest-host situation means you visit somebody at his home.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Murder of prisoners whose surrender has been accepted by a commander

Yes, we get that by the butchering of Peakes at the hands of the Red Lion in the wake of the fall of Starpike.

We can also assume that commoners and thugs murdering highborn knights rather than taking them prisoner and ransoming them would be breach of 'normal conduct'. I assume some liege lord, prince, Hand, or king summarily sentencing captured highborn prisoners to death because they rebelled against him is accepted (e.g. Bloodraven executing lords in the wake of Whitewalls).

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Torture as a form of recreation

Definitely.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Rape

In the eyes of some generals only, I'd assume. Definitely if we talk the spoiling of highborn maidens and wives.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Sacking a town that has surrendered, on terms.
Violation of the terms of surrender.

Yes, that, too.

I'd also say that just sacking a town or city that offered to surrender if there is really no need to sack it. That is why I think the Sacks of Bitterbridge and, especially, Tumbleton during the Dance are not exactly 'war business as usual'.

5 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Does breaking the King's Peace count as a war crime, or a crime of making war?

That means you are an enemy of the Crown, can be declared an outlaw, be attainted and destroyed, etc. But it wouldn't be a war crime as such. War crimes are things that aren't even permitted in war.

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

. Ser Davos is able to persuade Stannis that sacking Crab Island, due to the defection of its lord, would be an evil and cowardly

Perhaps but what won him over was it's uselessness. 

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

Robb Stark executes Lord Karstark and his men for murdering prisoners. Asha Greyjoy is told by the Maester of Deepwood Motte, that she has nothing to fear from surrendering to Stannis,

Which kind of implies that prisoners are in fact sometimes murdered,( although Asha is a princess) kind of like how the ironborn who surrendered to Ramsay were all hanged, now no doubt Ramsay is one tilt of the spectrum,  but Robb is as well. In fact Robbs kingdom was delt a hard blow with the execution of Karstark, where all his advisors pleaded he does something else.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Definitely.

For torture? The jail in the Vale is surely that, or we can look at Cersei or the High Sparrow,  the Mad Huntsman just one step above Edmure leaving Jaime in chains and malnourished.  

I don't think I've seen one instance where a character claims their method of torture went too far (aside from Jaime and Tyrion obvious, and I guess the BWB as well)

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In the eyes of some generals only, I'd assume. Definitely if we talk the spoiling of highborn maidens and wives.

Definitely not. Brienne was almost raped by all those knights, and they were on the same team. Cersei predicts a good raping and Sallador Saan leaves us no reason to doubt that.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

War crimes are things that aren't even permitted in war.

Right, which like is pretty ambiguous at times. I'd say honestly the only real war crime, or war no no, we have today is a nuke. After that all bets are off and the rules and fabric of society (not to mention the rest of the globe) will collapse. I mean obviously this is a little bit hyped but I'd say the only rule akin to that is the breech of guest rights which causes fear and anxiety by parties not even involved and will probably hurt their fabric of society as well. 

[The Commentator]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

War is hell, in this world as everywhere else. Martin drives home, through the perspectives of Arya, Jaime, and Brienne, just how ghastly the impact of the fighting is on the Smallfolk of Westeros, and through the POVs of Tyrion, Quentyn, Daenerys, just what it entails in the East.

Next to the actions of slavers, the atrocities ordered by Tywin Lannister are perhaps the worst. He sends forth Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Amory Lorch, Vargo Hoat and their reavers to savage the Riverlands. Ser Kevan promises to set the Riverlands ablaze, and  he is as good as his word. In Arya's subsequent chapters, we get to see what this means in practice. Children are murdered, women are raped, civilians are tortured and enslaved. For the Brave Companions, probably the worst of the soldiers employed by Tywin, war is nothing more than an excuse to enact their most depraved fantasies. They are the Westerosi equivalent to Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger. Tywin's record includes drowning women and children, and sacking a city that admitted his army peacefully. Almost certainly, he ordered the murder of Elia and her children.

In the North, Ramsay Bolton violates terms of surrender, in order to flay his captives. He keeps Theon as his plaything to torture him into virtual insanity. In the Riverlands, Walder Frey murders wedding guests and thousands of their soldiers. In the East, the Dothraki behave in similar manner to the chivalry of Westeros. The Ghiscari slaver elite revel in their own cruelty. This is a dark and depraved world.

Yet, atrocity is not one-sided. Jaime and Brienne encounter the tavern girls hanged from trees by Ser Marq Piper, because they lay with lions. Arya is horrified to learn that the men being left to rot in crow cages for their crimes are Karstark men, not Lannisters. Subsequently, she comes to the ruins of a village that was burnt to the ground by her grandfather, during Roberts Rebellion. Roose Bolton, even before he switches sides, is as cruel as any of Tywin's commanders, as he puts women in stocks to be raped, and allows the Brave Companions free rein to terrorise the population, in return for their changing sides. Robb pays the West back in kind for Lannister work.  While I very much doubt if Robb ever gives orders that are as cruel as Tywin's, pillaging, burning, and raiding, on the part of people who have a long list of scores to pay off, is never going to be pleasant.

This is not, however, a universe that completely lacks standards in war. Ser Davos is able to persuade Stannis that sacking Crab Island, due to the defection of its lord, would be an evil and cowardly act. Stannis we learn (and even someone as brutal as Randyll Tarly), gelds rapists among his men. Taking (high-born) prisoners for ransom, rather than killing or mutilating them (although these things happen), is common; Robb Stark executes Lord Karstark and his men for murdering prisoners. Asha Greyjoy is told by the Maester of Deepwood Motte, that she has nothing to fear from surrendering to Stannis, because she has behaved decently towards her prisoners. Even a dullard and a brute like Victarion feels disgust at the sight of his brother tormenting prisoners. Everyone views the Red Wedding with horror and contempt.

It goes without saying that what constitutes a war crime in the modern Western world would not necessarily amount to one in Westeros, but I do think the concept of war crimes does exist. I would suggest these would be:-

Breach of guest-right
Murder of prisoners whose surrender has been accepted by a commander
Torture as a form of recreation
Rape
Sacking a town that has surrendered, on terms.
Violation of the terms of surrender.

What do other readers think?

Oathbreaking is a war crime especially for people in military orders. Abandoning a post is desertion and punishable by death even today. 
 

Gregor and his crew are guilty of war crimes. But so are Robb Stark and his soldiers.  Those who sacked King’s Landing during the rebellion are too. The Darklins may have had grievances but taking their king prisoner and subjecting him to torture was probably the worst offense. 

[Craving Peaches]

I get the impression killing people in a Sept (especially if they have taken refuge there), or attacking a Sept would be considered a war crime, but it might be a crime against religion instead.

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Breach of guest right is something that is a huge sin in any case, independent of the question if there is a war going on or not. We could even say that guests and hosts usually are not at war, else they would not be visiting each other. In a war scenario we would more have a scenario where people breach the peace at a negotiation meeting. A most heinous crime there would have been the murder of the Young Dragon under a flag of truce. Although not breaking of guest right as a guest-host situation means you visit somebody at his home.

Yes, we get that by the butchering of Peakes at the hands of the Red Lion in the wake of the fall of Starpike.

We can also assume that commoners and thugs murdering highborn knights rather than taking them prisoner and ransoming them would be breach of 'normal conduct'. I assume some liege lord, prince, Hand, or king summarily sentencing captured highborn prisoners to death because they rebelled against him is accepted (e.g. Bloodraven executing lords in the wake of Whitewalls).

Definitely.

In the eyes of some generals only, I'd assume. Definitely if we talk the spoiling of highborn maidens and wives.

Yes, that, too.

I'd also say that just sacking a town or city that offered to surrender if there is really no need to sack it. That is why I think the Sacks of Bitterbridge and, especially, Tumbleton during the Dance are not exactly 'war business as usual'.

That means you are an enemy of the Crown, can be declared an outlaw, be attainted and destroyed, etc. But it wouldn't be a war crime as such. War crimes are things that aren't even permitted in war.

What most of these crimes have in common is perfidy.  Breach of guest-right would, in addition, be seen as crime against the gods.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Perhaps but what won him over was it's uselessness. 

Which kind of implies that prisoners are in fact sometimes murdered,( although Asha is a princess) kind of like how the ironborn who surrendered to Ramsay were all hanged, now no doubt Ramsay is one tilt of the spectrum,  but Robb is as well. In fact Robbs kingdom was delt a hard blow with the execution of Karstark, where all his advisors pleaded he does something else.

For torture? The jail in the Vale is surely that, or we can look at Cersei or the High Sparrow,  the Mad Huntsman just one step above Edmure leaving Jaime in chains and malnourished.  

I don't think I've seen one instance where a character claims their method of torture went too far (aside from Jaime and Tyrion obvious, and I guess the BWB as well)

Definitely not. Brienne was almost raped by all those knights, and they were on the same team. Cersei predicts a good raping and Sallador Saan leaves us no reason to doubt that.

Right, which like is pretty ambiguous at times. I'd say honestly the only real war crime, or war no no, we have today is a nuke. After that all bets are off and the rules and fabric of society (not to mention the rest of the globe) will collapse. I mean obviously this is a little bit hyped but I'd say the only rule akin to that is the breech of guest rights which causes fear and anxiety by parties not even involved and will probably hurt their fabric of society as well. 

Killing someone who surrenders at discretion would be no war crime in this world.  But, if you agree to spare someone’s life, in return for their surrendering, that would definitely be perfidious, especially if that prisoner is highborn.

For Robb, Karstark had gone rogue, murdered Robb’s own soldiers, and made his king a liar in the eyes of the world, by murdering highborn prisoners.

WRT torture, few dispute that it is a legitimate practice.  It’s torturing for fun that would be considered immoral.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Oathbreaking is a war crime especially for people in military orders. Abandoning a post is desertion and punishable by death even today. 
 

Gregor and his crew are guilty of war crimes. But so are Robb Stark and his soldiers.  Those who sacked King’s Landing during the rebellion are too. The Darklins may have had grievances but taking their king prisoner and subjecting him to torture was probably the worst offense. 

Laying hands on the king is like attacking God.  In-universe, it seems that the punishment inflicted on the Darklins was seen as fair.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I get the impression killing people in a Sept (especially if they have taken refuge there), or attacking a Sept would be considered a war crime, but it might be a crime against religion instead.

In medieval Europe, violating sanctuary would be seen as a very serious war crime/crime against God, so it should be seen as such, here.  Unless of course, it’s a religion you see as false or heretical.

[the trees have eyes]

On 1/10/2024 at 5:41 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Definitely not. Brienne was almost raped by all those knights, and they were on the same team.

Renly's knights compete among themselves to take her virginity but this is a case of a bunch of young hoorahs having a competition to get a woman into bed.  She's highborn so Tarly disapproves and dismisses several of his household knights over it but there's never any suggestion any of them were planning to rape her.

Rape is a crime, rather than a war crime per se, but like a lot of crimes - theft, assault, arson, murder - the line gets blurred during combat as to what will be overlooked and what will be punished.

Dany after the sack of Meereen is a good example.  Amnesty is effectively given for what happened during the sack but the rule of law is reinstated immediately afterwards and rapists are subsequently punished by gelding.  I imagine Army Commanders would apply similar standards depending on their characters / ulterior motives with Stannis being notoriously rigid and unforgiving rather than the norm.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Renly's knights compete among themselves to take her virginity but this is a case of a bunch of young hoorahs having a competition to get a woman into bed.  She's highborn so Tarly disapproves and dismisses several of his household knights over it but there's never any suggestion any of them were planning to rape her.

Rape is a crime, rather than a war crime per se, but like a lot of crimes - theft, assault, arson, murder - the line gets blurred during combat as to what will be overlooked and what will be punished.

Dany after the sack of Meereen is a good example.  Amnesty is effectively given for what happened during the sack but the rule of law is reinstated immediately afterwards and rapists are subsequently punished by gelding.  I imagine Army Commanders would apply similar standards depending on their characters / ulterior motives with Stannis being notoriously rigid and unforgiving rather than the norm.

 24 -48 hours is basically the norm for a sack (sacks that lasted days, with a view to maximising slaughter, were unusual),

Even Stannis wouldn’t stop a sack.  Stannis might choose to kill captives, but once he’s agreed to spare them, it becomes a matter of kingly honour to treat them fairly, as with Asha, or the spearwives.

[Landis]

On 1/10/2024 at 5:22 PM, SeanF said:

In medieval Europe, violating sanctuary would be seen as a very serious war crime/crime against God, so it should be seen as such, here.  Unless of course, it’s a religion you see as false or heretical.

That being said, I do get the sense that violence against a person or group on religious grounds is seen as something that is a no-no in Westeros, which is ultimately why there continues to be a measure of religious diversity, and why families like the Blackwoods and Manderlys continue to practices their respective religions despite those most popular in the regions they have been transplanted to. Damaging weirwood trees or Septs is consistently shown in a negative light, even by those of the opposite religion, and I seem to recall it being mentioned on a few occasions that the Iron Islanders refusal to recognize the religious freedoms of Westerosi as being a big motivating factor for why the Westerosi really dislike them. Similarly, when the Targaryens arrive, their efforts to impose religious sanctions against the Faith in particular are strongly rebuffed, and both Visenya and Alysanne appeared to spend a fair bit of time working to resolve religious tensions between followers of the Old and New Gods as well. 

In Essos there appear to be a lot of anxieties around religion as well, resulting in sometimes uneasy peaces between groups and cities. The Dothraki's consistent pattern of desecrating the religious sites of others and stealing of their religious artifacts is universally hated in both Westeros and Essos, and it is ultimately a big factor in Drogo's death as well.

Melisandre wins very few friends and many enemies with her Red evangelism, while Thoros, professed of the same religion, is generally left well enough alone. 

Similarly, while the Faith Militant has its populist appeals in the South, one has to imagine that its resurgence would be viewed far less positively by the peasantry in the North (and certainly, none of the nobles, regardless of religion, would be delighted by their own power being undermined). 

So, like a lot of the crimes on your list, there are varied applications of this in the societies, but as a general rule, there appears to be a cleaving towards religious tolerance in both Westeros and Essos (however uncomfortable that sometimes is), with religious intolerance frequently resulting in social and civilizational ostracism. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Renly's knights compete among themselves to take her virginity but this is a case of a bunch of young hoorahs having a competition to get a woman into bed.  She's highborn so Tarly disapproves and dismisses several of his household knights over it but there's never any suggestion any of them were planning to rape her.

There is a suggestion.  

.

"Some of these . . . challengers . . . are less honorable than others, and the stakes were growing larger every day. It was only a matter of time before one of them decided to claim the prize by force."

"They were knights," she said, stunned, "anointed knights."

"And honorable men. The blame is yours."

The accusation made her flinch. "I would never . . . my lord, I did nought to encourage them."

"Your being here encouraged them. If a woman will behave like a camp follower, she cannot object to being treated like one. A war host is no place for a maiden. If you have any regard for your virtue or the honor of your House, you will take off that mail, return home, and beg your father to find a husband for you."

.

 

Westersi are particularly disgusting, now perhaps Randylls views aren't shared by the majority of the Sunset, but surely loads of it.

Not only is he implying that she'd get raped but that if it  were to happen it wouldnt even be dishonorable. Further he blurs the line between victim, camp follower, and wife. 

It's all sorts of backwards. 

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

There is a suggestion.  

.

"Some of these . . . challengers . . . are less honorable than others, and the stakes were growing larger every day. It was only a matter of time before one of them decided to claim the prize by force."

"They were knights," she said, stunned, "anointed knights."

"And honorable men. The blame is yours."

The accusation made her flinch. "I would never . . . my lord, I did nought to encourage them."

"Your being here encouraged them. If a woman will behave like a camp follower, she cannot object to being treated like one. A war host is no place for a maiden. If you have any regard for your virtue or the honor of your House, you will take off that mail, return home, and beg your father to find a husband for you."

.

 

Westersi are particularly disgusting, now perhaps Randylls views aren't shared by the majority of the Sunset, but surely loads of it.

Not only is he implying that she'd get raped but that if it  were to happen it wouldnt even be dishonorable. Further he blurs the line between victim, camp follower, and wife. 

It's all sorts of backwards. 

Tarly is a disgusting man.  Had he been alive in WW2, he’d have ordered the summary execution of female Soviet POW’s.

[Hugorfonics]

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tarly is a disgusting man.  Had he been alive in WW2, he’d have ordered the summary execution of female Soviet POW’s.

While Renly's honorable knights would have obeyed 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Landis said:

That being said, I do get the sense that violence against a person or group on religious grounds is seen as something that is a no-no in Westeros, which is ultimately why there continues to be a measure of religious diversity, and why families like the Blackwoods and Manderlys continue to practices their respective religions despite those most popular in the regions they have been transplanted to. Damaging weirwood trees or Septs is consistently shown in a negative light, even by those of the opposite religion, and I seem to recall it being mentioned on a few occasions that the Iron Islanders refusal to recognize the religious freedoms of Westerosi as being a big motivating factor for why the Westerosi really dislike them. Similarly, when the Targaryens arrive, their efforts to impose religious sanctions against the Faith in particular are strongly rebuffed, and both Visenya and Alysanne appeared to spend a fair bit of time working to resolve religious tensions between followers of the Old and New Gods as well. 

In Essos there appear to be a lot of anxieties around religion as well, resulting in sometimes uneasy peaces between groups and cities. The Dothraki's consistent pattern of desecrating the religious sites of others and stealing of their religious artifacts is universally hated in both Westeros and Essos, and it is ultimately a big factor in Drogo's death as well.

Melisandre wins very few friends and many enemies with her Red evangelism, while Thoros, professed of the same religion, is generally left well enough alone. 

Similarly, while the Faith Militant has its populist appeals in the South, one has to imagine that its resurgence would be viewed far less positively by the peasantry in the North (and certainly, none of the nobles, regardless of religion, would be delighted by their own power being undermined). 

So, like a lot of the crimes on your list, there are varied applications of this in the societies, but as a general rule, there appears to be a cleaving towards religious tolerance in both Westeros and Essos (however uncomfortable that sometimes is), with religious intolerance frequently resulting in social and civilizational ostracism. 

That’s fair, I think.  Religious personnel/buildings should be off-limits in general, unless the religion in question is seen as disgusting.

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

That’s fair, I think.  Religious personnel/buildings should be off-limits in general, unless the religion in question is seen as disgusting.

Don't real-life religions usually see each other as disgusting though? Even among those who claim to worship the same god we have gems like "Kill them all, God will recognize his own".