War Crimes in the Series

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

That's more accurate, I suppose.  Harrenhall is on the edge of the tail end of a war zone with the only River Lords yet to submit (Blackwood and Brynden in lieu of Edmure Tully) under siege.  The area is full of broken men and law and order will need time to restore, years maybe (the sack of Saltpans, the BWB as you point out).  But Harrenhall is recovered territory (if not exactly friendly) and the inhabitants are to be offered the protection of the law, rather than treated like an occupied enemy.

What I mean is Jaime would punish soldiers under his command who carried out rape (in peacetime or wartime).  He's not exactly Stannis and his track record with honour is spotty to say the least but he would punish rape.  However, men under one of his father's bannermen clearly committed atrocities at Harrenhall when it was in rebellion against the Iron Throne (or it's Lady/Lord was), including a whole lot of rape and he does not punish this. 

Maybe he doesn't see this as his business, as he was not in command of those men so although he doesn't approve he doesn't think he has the right or authority to interfere retroactively with another's orders and punish them (which authority he does have now and makes his view very clear).  Feudal right of justice belongs to the lord unless you took a grievance or complaint up the line - as the villagers who were initially pillaged by Gregor's men did by appealing directly to the King / Ned in Robert's absence.  But I find that a bit unlikely as it would prevent Jaime (or anyone) from intervening in any way when they found a crime being committed.

So I tend to think he knows the men are guilty of crimes but that the "wartime vs peacetime" distinction means he feels obliged to overlook what their own Lord / officers permitted against an enemy, albeit an enemy civilian population.  It's not quite the same as an amnesty but like Dany after the Sack of Meereen it's not going to be punished, though new offences will.

Westeros doesn't have a written penal code afaik so the penalty for rape is not set in stone - rapists seems to be offered a choice of castration or joining the NW - Daereon I think; Jon Snow has a black brother who was a serial rapist of septas and tattooed himself for every victim - but Jaime has him executed.  Why? Military discipline or making an example to restore that discipline?  Licence to pass sentence as the lord sees fit?  An attempt to be true to the vows of knighthood, given that spotty record to date?  Fondness for Pretty Pia who Bolton sent to him as a bed warmer and who he turned away, mixed with anger at the knowledge of what she must have endured?

The wartime / peacetime distinction is an attempt to understand Jaime's actions - ignoring past actions and punishing the present rape - when rape is obviously a crime.  Westeros seems to blur the line in wartime as to whether rape will be punished (Stannis obviously, Ned and others most likely, Tywin and his like will ignore it or punish it depending on the benefit to be gained) without using rape and sexual enslavement as a tactic, indeed a motive, like the Ironborn.

We know exactly why he does what he does. It’s in a POV chapter 

[the trees have eyes]

On 1/19/2024 at 2:20 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I'm not entirely sure what label to give him, but not "old way" which is extremely ambiguous and means different things to different people.

"The Old Way" is a system of perpetual warfare between the Ironborn and everyone who is not Ironborn.  The Targaryen conquest made Westeros off limits to reaving but the likes of Euron always aimed at other targets in Essos and ofc all Westeros is now back on the table.  It's not ambiguous at all.  Take a look at The Shield Islands for how it works.

On 1/19/2024 at 2:20 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Definitely in Bonifers eyes she's a hooker, Jaime is a little more woke then like fucking Bonifer yet nevertheless, despite his pleas, she is basically walking the path of a thrall.

She's a refugee, not a piece of property.  You must be able to understand the difference between someone abducting and raping her, then claiming her as a sex slave (granted the label of salt wife to distinguish her from a proper wife) and someone granting her protection on a temporary basis.  Temporary because whether she becomes a washerwoman at Casterly Rock or a Tavern Maid in Lannisport or The Riverlands, he's helping her not claiming her.  No one can genuinely be confused about this.

On 1/19/2024 at 2:20 PM, Hugorfonics said:

They all have a culture that allows it, that's what I'm saying. Roose Bolton does acknowledge that the rights of first night is illegal and does acknowledge that if he leaves the husband with a tongue he could get in trouble with the law, but what did that accomplish? 

This is a mess.  Quite obviously Westeros does not have a culture that allows this and has laws against it.  Roose Bolton knows this which is why he has the miller murdered: so he can't go to Ned and demand justice which Ned, as Jorah Mormont serves to remind us, would assuredly dispense.  A law being broken is not evidence that law is pointless, nor is it evidence that the underlying culture does not accept or recognise the morality or legality of said laws.  Jesus...  The criminal element might not but they then get punished for law-breaking.

On 1/19/2024 at 2:20 PM, Hugorfonics said:

If you just look at the awfulness of ironborn culture they're gonna come out awful, but again I say they're at least more pragmatic in a nicer way, for example if Pia were to have kids they'd be smallfolk and susceptible to the same calamity that their mom was, under ironborn culture they'd be integrated and presumably better defended by the kings peace, at the least in a better position to take care of their toothless mother.

I think if ISIS ever want to lawyer up then you're their guy.  All those Yazidi women they're being pragmatic to in a nicer way would assuredly be better looked after by their children in their toothless dotage under the Caliphate's peace than otherwise in the war-torn world.  You clearly feel the cultural integration of those children into their fathers' way of life has benefits and should be a priority, yes?....

Of course, if you take your peculiarly rose-tinted spectacles off then the Ironborn are the ones creating thousands of Pretty Pias on The Shield Islands not rescuing them.

On 1/19/2024 at 2:20 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Victarions wife cheated on him, Eddard assumed the penalty for adultery was death, and there's no reason to think that isn't the case for the rest of the Sunset. Balon certainly took a legality view on the subject which is why Euron was banished, like it's awful no doubt.

The penalty for treason is death.  That the treason takes the form of adultery (fifteen years worth of it, and fourteen years worth of passing off her brother's bastards as the King's children and heirs to the Iron Throne) shouldn't be confused with adultery being a capital crime.  And you know perfectly well that it's not.  "There's no reason to think".  Are you really trying to pretend that adultery is a capital crime in Westeros?  What an incredible ass-pull . 

Balon gave not a damn about a piece of property being dispensed with.  He didn't want Victarion and Euron coming to blows and one committing fratricide so he banished Euron as the wrongdoer.  I mean, please, just stop.  If Balon took a legalistic view he would have banished Victarion for law-breaking and murdering a salt wife, someone apparently in your fantasy offered legal protections.  But he banishes Euron.

[Hugorfonics]

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

"The Old Way" is a system of perpetual warfare between the Ironborn and everyone who is not Ironborn.  The Targaryen conquest made Westeros off limits to reaving but the likes of Euron always aimed at other targets in Essos and ofc all Westeros is now back on the table.  It's not ambiguous at all.  Take a look at The Shield Islands for how it works.

The Old Way is not war to the death,  idk where you came up with that because although Balon and Aaron share different views on the subject neither confuse it with that.

And Euron is a slaver, specifically not a follower of the old ways.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

She's a refugee, not a piece of property.  You must be able to understand the difference between someone abducting and raping her, then claiming her as a sex slave (granted the label of salt wife to distinguish her from a proper wife) and someone granting her protection on a temporary basis.  Temporary because whether she becomes a washerwoman at Casterly Rock or a Tavern Maid in Lannisport or The Riverlands, he's helping her not claiming her.  No one can genuinely be confused about this.

Obviously Jaime leaving her in the woods like Weasel is inconceivable,  what I'm saying is Bonifer punished the victim for getting raped by banishing her from her home and suggesting a job often conflated in westeros with a hooker. It's not confusing, it's fucking disgusting. 

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

This is a mess.  Quite obviously Westeros does not have a culture that allows this and has laws against it.  Roose Bolton knows this which is why he has the miller murdered: so he can't go to Ned and demand justice which Ned, as Jorah Mormont serves to remind us, would assuredly dispense.  A law being broken is not evidence that law is pointless, nor is it evidence that the underlying culture does not accept or recognise the morality or legality of said laws.  Jesus...  The criminal element might not but they then get punished for law-breaking.

You don't make laws unless it's a thing. The governor can't fathom having first night because in our culture that's not a thing.

And your specifying on Roose when I've pointed out that Walton and men like him, which in Jaimes estimate is lots, rape when their blood is up. The entirety of the free folk culture revolves around abducting women and everything about Shae is sus. 

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think if ISIS ever want to lawyer up then you're their guy.  All those Yazidi women they're being pragmatic to in a nicer way would assuredly be better looked after by their children in their toothless dotage under the Caliphate's peace than otherwise in the war-torn world.  You clearly feel the cultural integration of those children into their fathers' way of life has benefits and should be a priority, yes?....

Charming. I suppose it's better then leaving them as chattel slavery which is basically the go to in westeros. Iraq and Syria though showed signs of democratic and liberal methods growing in their culture which is a predominant reason why the Islamic states growth is so alarming. If this was back in what we think of as Caliphate times, i.e, the middle ages, it wouldn't be as alarming because all of their neighbors also fucking suck, like the Crusaders or the Lannisters.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Of course, if you take your peculiarly rose-tinted spectacles off then the Ironborn are the ones creating thousands of Pretty Pias on The Shield Islands not rescuing them.

Idk how many times I gotta say they all do that.  I don't have tinted shades for a specific kingdom, I see all of westeros very clearly.

The smallfolk in the riverlands for example didn't view the Karstark soldiers as rescuers.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The penalty for treason is death.  That the treason takes the form of adultery (fifteen years worth of it, and fourteen years worth of passing off her brother's bastards as the King's children and heirs to the Iron Throne) shouldn't be confused with adultery being a capital crime.  And you know perfectly well that it's not.  "There's no reason to think".  Are you really trying to pretend that adultery is a capital crime in Westeros?  What an incredible ass-pull . 

It's an incredibly misogynistic society where the boss lady in charge like Cat isn't allowed to say the word Ashara out loud.  

It is a bit peculiar that there's no other proven adulterer we can look at but from what we got all these situations result in presumed death and Eddard never throws around the word treason for Robert's perfumed reaction. These guys are a bunch of war hawk megalomaniacs, that beating with your love with your fist for giving you horns, well I'd say its an assumed reaction for an animalistic society. Which is backed up by text while the treason Ann boylen thing is not.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Balon gave not a damn about a piece of property being dispensed with.  He didn't want Victarion and Euron coming to blows and one committing fratricide so he banished Euron as the wrongdoer.  I mean, please, just stop.  If Balon took a legalistic view he would have banished Victarion for law-breaking and murdering a salt wife, someone apparently in your fantasy offered legal protections.  But he banishes Euron.

Which is why I think Victarion didn't break the law. Euron either or Balon would have taken a legal, lethal, approach. 

And I suppose in a way she was property because in westeros marriage for the women is basically a trap but she was his wife. He thinks of her on the same level as Dany, histories greatest eligible bachelorette. Iirc there isn't any reference for Victarions first wife being a thrall. 

[the trees have eyes]

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The Old Way is not war to the death,  idk where you came up with that because although Balon and Aaron share different views on the subject neither confuse it with that.

Strawman, I never said that it was.  Why pretend that?  It's dishonest.  Raiding obviously requires there be someone to raid.  As I told you, look at The Shield Islands.  Or look at The Stony Shore or the raiding up the Mander.  You could look at the Kingsmoot too for how Euron wins the support of The Iron Lords and what he offers them.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And Euron is a slaver, specifically not a follower of the old ways.

Euron very much is a follower of The Old Way  .  It's what he has been doing on Silence all these years and why he has a crew of mute thralls with their tongues cut out. 

A Clash of Kings - Theon II

Theon shifted his seat. "My uncle Euron has not been seen in the islands for close on two years. He may be dead." If so, it might be for the best. Lord Balon's eldest brother had never given up the Old Way, even for a day. His Silence, with its black sails and dark red hull, was infamous in every port from Ibben to Asshai, it was said.

 

Selling slaves for money rather than keeping them as thralls or salt wives is not part of The Old Way, true, and appears to be an innovation that Victarion disapproves of but Victarion would happily have killed the men rather than sell them - that's The Old Way at it's purest.

 

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Obviously Jaime leaving her in the woods like Weasel is inconceivable,  what I'm saying is Bonifer punished the victim for getting raped by banishing her from her home and suggesting a job often conflated in westeros with a hooker. It's not confusing, it's fucking disgusting. 

What you said was that Jaime took her and "she was walking the path of the thrall".  It's obvious bullshit, Jaime is protecting her not carrying out some Westerosi version of The Old Way (and you are perversely trying to represent The Old Way as a means of offering protection to women).

The rest is pure distraction as you show your general undifferentiated contempt for everything and anything in place of the holes / complete fabrications in your argument.  Bonifer, as religious zealots tend to do, does not look approvingly on those with loose sexual morals (as he / they see it) and turfs her out.  She's a refugee, Jaime protects her, end of story.  Nothing to do with thralldom (actually salt wifery) or sexual slavery; nothing to do with war crimes and The Old Way.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

You don't make laws unless it's a thing. The governor can't fathom having first night because in our culture that's not a thing.

So if a society has laws then it's because everyone is a rapist and murderer and all these things are part of the culture? 

I think you'll find the laws are against things that are generally considered unacceptable by the society or culture and that they deem deserve punishment, often quite severely, like gelding or sending to The Wall or execution, all punishments meted out for rape in Westeros.  It's the same where you live even if you have to scratch your head every morning about why there are all these laws against you carrying out the bona fide cultural practices you would otherwise engage in.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And your specifying on Roose when I've pointed out that Walton and men like him, which in Jaimes estimate is lots, rape when their blood is up.

I'm specifying Roose because he carries out rape and murder but obviously keeps it quiet because Ned would have executed him for it.  This is an umambiguous incident that occurs in peacetime.

Jaime does indeed consider that Walton and men like him would commit rape in wartime but then go home to their wives and families and be law-abiding citizens in peacetime.  It's why the attitude of military commanders to rape, the punishment to be meted out and the use of rape as a weapon of war are being debated in this topic on war crimes.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The entirety of the free folk culture revolves around abducting women

The Free Folk are very like the Ironborn in some ways, a marginal society who raid the more prosperous lands on their borders and take women as property.  Neither of these are Westerosi traditions or cultures though the attempt to change Ironborn culture by forbidding The Old Way has been a kind of project since the Targaryen conquest.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Charming. I suppose it's better then leaving them as chattel slavery which is basically the go to in westeros.

It really isn't.  You know this.  Why type such bollocks?  The women taken by the Ironborn are the equivalent of the Yazidis being stolen by ISIS. I specifically made this analogy to make you think about what you are writing such an apologia for. For reasons known only to yourself you are doubling down on this and portraying the kidnappers as emancipators.  What an astonishingly stupid, not to say vile position to take up.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

 If this was back in what we think of as Caliphate times, i.e, the middle ages, it wouldn't be as alarming because all of their neighbors also fucking suck, like the Crusaders or the Lannisters.

Except of course, not all the neighbours fucking suck and only the ironborn have this cherished tradition or raiding everyone for plunder, thralls and sex slaves, glorified and codified into a way of life.  The Wildlings raid and fight and steal women from each other and only the most daring go over The Wall for plunder(?) and women but they aren't part of Westeros at all while the Ironborn are half in / half out. 

Odd that you are quiet on condemning the slaughter and enslavement of the Yazidis even if you imagined it in the middle ages ("it wouldn't be as alarming [then]") as if you know that by saying what you really think you would have to criticise the Ironborn for doing the same thing, something you have quixotically decided to defend as benefiting the victims.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Idk how many times I gotta say they all do that.  I don't have tinted shades for a specific kingdom, I see all of westeros very clearly.

Your shades are painted black.  The Old Way is a unique practice and the thralls / salt wives taken back have no analogue in Westeros.  War crimes are committed in Westeros, it's the whole point of this thread, but no other culture legally or traditionally operates in this way against it's neighbours who have all been bound together in one kingdom for the last 300 years under the same set of laws anyway.

I don't think you see it clearly at all.  This apologia for the Ironborn is just a rather silly way of showing your contempt for Westeros in general.  It's a feudal kingdom, man, no one is unaware of it's faults, but you don't have to resort to a smug lazy dismissal of everything as equally bad that leads you to some terrible arguments and eye-popping conclusions.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

It's an incredibly misogynistic society where the boss lady in charge like Cat isn't allowed to say the word Ashara out loud.  

 Ned's marriage to Cat is a happy one and when he leaves to become Hand he leaves her in charge at Winterfell.  The worst incident in their marriage is when she questions him about Ashara, rumoured to be Jon's mother, and he tells her quite coldly never to mention her name again.

This is meant to display the extreme misogyny in Westeros that you want to include in your ass-pull argument that adultery is punishable by death. 

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

It is a bit peculiar that there's no other proven adulterer we can look at but from what we got all these situations result in presumed death

 It's not peculiar at all, you are fabricating something then acting surprised that there is no support for your fabrication in the text.   

This is one of those terrible arguments and eye-popping conclusions I mentioned.  You are simply making things up in bad faith in order to try and support an absurd position you took out of contrariness.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

and Eddard never throws around the word treason for Robert's perfumed reaction.

Um.  It's one of those water is wet moments.  He doesn't need to call it treason because it is understood that it is.  If you're very young (you're not) or have no historical background to understand treason in a feudal monarchy (you have) you might need this explained but the author doesn't think it needs it.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

These guys are a bunch of war hawk megalomaniacs, that beating with your love with your fist for giving you horns, well I'd say its an assumed reaction for an animalistic society. 

I think that could happen today (and, does, sadly).  It doesn't mean that if I hear about it on the evening news that I live in an "animalistic society", simply that someone committed murder and will be punished for it.  I don't quite agree with the picture of the Ironborn as an "animalistic society" though I do think the thralls and salt wives are second class citizens who are really slaves by a nicer name, certainly property that can be punished lethally if the owner is enraged and the property at fault.

I don't agree at all with the silly and morally smug condemnation of feudal Westeros as animalistic or the feudal nobility as war hawk megalomaniacs.  That you find it peculiar that the novels aren't full of husbands beating their wives to death is a problem with your own faulty comprehension (actually deliberate invention of alternate facts) and projection of distaste for all these smelly barbarians who don't live in an enlightened and pluralistic utopia.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Which is backed up by text while the treason Ann boylen thing is not.

If the tail end of the word salad is saying that adultery is a crime punishable by death throughout Westeros and that treason is not and you believe you have textual support for this (notwithstanding your peculiar confusion that you could not find supporting evidence for this a mere two sentences ago) your attempt to substitute your fabricated alternate facts is, um, not well founded.  This is really poor stuff.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Which is why I think Victarion didn't break the law. Euron either or Balon would have taken a legal, lethal, approach. 

Oh, Victarion didn't.  He punished his property, lethally so.  He didn't kill a citizen of The Iron Isles.  I think Euron did break the law though as he made use of his brother's property without his permission, and it's very clear that Victarion would not have given such permission.  But as adultery is not a capital crime anywhere in Westeros or The Iron Isles (despite your attempt to reverse engineer it so to justify your contrarian take on what happens between the Greyjoy brothers) and this is only a piece of property there's not much to punish him for.

The idea that Balon would have taken a "lethal approach" (or that he is some kind of legalistic paragon a la Stannis) and executed one of his own brothers over a piece of property picked up as booty is unsupported - and that is putting it charitably.  Balon kicks out Euron so it doesn't end in kinslaying between Victarion and Euron, not because of a judge's astute reading of non-existent laws.

On 1/22/2024 at 4:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

And I suppose in a way she was property because in westeros marriage for the women is basically a trap but she was his wife. He thinks of her on the same level as Dany, histories greatest eligible bachelorette. Iirc there isn't any reference for Victarions first wife being a thrall. 

 Bad troll, Hugor.  Catelyn is not Ned's property.  But Victarion's wife was:

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

When he did not answer, Asha said, "I was away when Silence sailed. I had taken Black Wind around the Arbor to the Stepstones, to steal a few trinkets from the Lyseni pirates. When I came home, Euron was gone and your new wife was dead."

"She was only a salt wife." He had not touched another woman since he gave her to the crabs. I will need to take a wife when I am king. A true wife, to be my queen and bear me sons. A king must have an heir.

 

A salt wife =/= a true wife because:

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor

The larger, heavier, slower ships made for Lys, to sell the captives taken on the Shields, the women and children of Lord Hewett's Town and other islands, along with such men who decided they would sooner yield than die. Victarion had only contempt for such weaklings. Even so, the selling left a foul taste in his mouth. Taking a man as thrall or a woman as a salt wife, that was right and proper, but men were not goats or fowl to be bought and sold for gold. 

 

a male slave = a thrall; a female (sex) slave = a salt wife

 

He makes it clear that she was a salt wife, not a true wife.  Dany will be a true wife, not property.

 

I hope that helps but I'm sure you will try and turn it all on it's head again for shit and giggles 

[SeanF]

@the trees have eyesI don't think Tywin, or Ser Kevan, or Randyll Tarly, or - a lot of Westerosi lords - are any better than the Ironborn.

But, we do also see lordly commanders who do impose standards and restraints on those in their service, like Ned, Stannis, Jon Snow, Edmure.

Edited January 23 by SeanF

[Aldarion]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

@the trees have eyesI don't think Tywin, or Ser Kevan, or Randyll Tarly, or - a lot of Westerosi lords - are any better than the Ironborn.

But, we do also see lordly commanders who do impose standards and restraints on those in their service, like Ned, Stannis, Jon Snow, Edmure.

Tarly is definitely better than the Ironborn, as are majority of Westerosi lords. As for Tywin, there is a reason why he always tries to have a designated scapegoat - such as using Gregor to murder Elia and her children or raid the Riverlands.

There are monsters everywhere. Difference is, Westeros recognizes monsters for what they are and punishes them, where possible. Hence why Tywin has to play rules lawyer and why Roose and Ramsay have to carry out their depredations in secret.

Ironborn revere such monsters and hold them up as something to be admired. Ethically, Ironborn are closer to Dothraki or Slaver's Bay than they are to rest of Westeros.

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Tarly is definitely better than the Ironborn, as are majority of Westerosi lords. As for Tywin, there is a reason why he always tries to have a designated scapegoat - such as using Gregor to murder Elia and her children or raid the Riverlands.

There are monsters everywhere. Difference is, Westeros recognizes monsters for what they are and punishes them, where possible. Hence why Tywin has to play rules lawyer and why Roose and Ramsay have to carry out their depredations in secret.

Ironborn revere such monsters and hold them up as something to be admired. Ethically, Ironborn are closer to Dothraki or Slaver's Bay than they are to rest of Westeros.

I was discussing this elsewhere, and I see Tywin as very much the Edward I/Philip the Fair of Westeros.  A man who grew up in a brutal society, but made it *far worse*.

Surprisingly perhaps, from the start of the reign of William Rufus to the final stages of the baronial wars of Henry III, executions of defeated enemies are pretty unusual in England.  The big exception is the reign of John, who is widely regarded as a shit. Imprisonment for ransom, even mutilation (nasty, but considered more merciful than death), are more common.

Prince Edward (later Edward I), changed that.  Enemies were subjected to degrading deaths (he introduced hanging, drawing, and quartering, and inflicted it on the highborn), total war was inflicted on Welsh and Scottish civilians, the Jews were expelled, and Scottish noblewomen were exhibited in cages from the walls of Berwick castle.

Tywin raised the stakes in baronial conflicts for everybody.
 

 

[TheLastWolf]

War crimes? I thought war itself was a crime

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

War crimes? I thought war itself was a crime

No, or at least, not for the defender.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

War crimes? I thought war itself was a crime

Not in our world.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Aldarion said:

No, or at least, not for the defender.

We are just monkeys with upgraded weapons. A systematic conflict where organised hordes kill each other is a fucking crime against the laws of nature in my book. When the idea of defender extends to a mob, it loses all semblance of rational purpose in no time as it sets to exacting its own brand of justice. Even when it remains within an individual, it can't last forever 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Not in our world.

Profit, might makes right huh

Edited January 24 by TheLastWolf

[Aldarion]

5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

We are just monkeys with upgraded weapons. A systematic conflict where organised hordes kill each other is a fucking crime against the laws of nature in my book. When the idea of defender extends to a mob, it loses all semblance of rational purpose in no time as it sets to exacting its own brand of justice. Even when it remains within an individual, it can't last forever 

Your book is a bloody fairy tale.

It may be crime against ethics, but it cannot be crime against the laws of nature.

Precisely because we are monkeys with upgraded weapons.

"Systematic conflict where organized hordes kill each other"?

Monkeys do that. Chimpanzees in particular will wage real wars, but they are not the only ones.

Ants wage wars as well. Dolphins too, as do lions, hyenas...

Literally every intelligent social animal wages war.

And what are humans? Intelligent social animals.

Which means that as long as humans exist, there will be wars. And yes, wars are evil. But any alternative that would prevent wars from being waged at all would be far worse.

[TheLastWolf]

Animals fight for food and to fuck. And the territory that provides it. And not by the millions, detailed like a sport.

Well you don't need me to know what we fucking fight over. The same tbh. But on an insanely blown up scale. Replace the simple food and fuck with every single commodity and service civilization has thought of. Oh yeah preserving the x y z <fill_in> way of life.

2 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

But any alternative that would prevent wars from being waged at all would be far worse.

Oh we're heading towards that, don't worry. No more bald monkey virus on Earth soon. Selfsame monke will take care of that.

[TheLastWolf]

I mean if you and I and a million others can come to the conclusion that war is evil, why can't the billions. Excluding the profiteering amorals.

That part irks the intelligent social animal aspect for me. What use is the IQ we've gained if its just to prolong this cycle of misery.

We know better, but that's worth shite

Edited January 24 by TheLastWolf

[Aldarion]

5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Animals fight for food and to fuck. And the territory that provides it. And not by the millions, detailed like a sport.

Well you don't need me to know what we fucking fight over. The same tbh. But on an insanely blown up scale. Replace the simple food and fuck with every single commodity and service civilization has thought of. Oh yeah preserving the x y z <fill_in> way of life.

Precisely.

Literally only difference between human wars and ape wars is that we are far more numerous, better organized, and have better technology.

5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Oh we're heading towards that, don't worry. No more bald monkey virus on Earth soon. Selfsame monke will take care of that.

Oh, I know.

But it will not be war that will kill us. War or no war, advanced technological civilization is inherently self-destructive. And there are many other dangers out in the universe as well.

2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

I mean if you and I and a million others can come to the conclusion that war is evil, why can't the billions. Excluding the profiteering amorals.

That part irks the intelligent social animal aspect for me. What use is the IQ we've gained if its just to prolong this cycle of misery.

We know better, but that's worth shite

Because choices in life are typically not between good and evil.

Usually, it is merely evil and even greater evil.

And as I said: war is evil. But it is far from being the greatest evil humans have come up with. Sometimes, not going to war is a worse choice than going to war.

Edited January 24 by Aldarion

[TheLastWolf]

Just now, Aldarion said:

we are far more numerous, better organized, and have better technology.

That doesn't anger me so much as the stupid reasons we intelligent fucks fight for.

So easy to raise a rabble of roused runts baying for blood. Sone reason or the other is enough.

2 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

advanced technological civilization is inherently self-destructive

I concur, we'll have no space to stand and breathe soon (forget the other vital resources), seeing as we got rid of most deaths and have babies like crazy. Ugly nasty things await us around the corner.

3 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

And there are many other dangers out in the universe as well

No time for space cowboys to get eaten if we keep up the quantum leaping self destructive pace

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

We are just monkeys with upgraded weapons. A systematic conflict where organised hordes kill each other is a fucking crime against the laws of nature in my book. When the idea of defender extends to a mob, it loses all semblance of rational purpose in no time as it sets to exacting its own brand of justice. Even when it remains within an individual, it can't last forever 

Profit, might makes right huh

There’s no point in being Yoko Ono.

War is natural to humans, as to other species.

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

There’s no point in being Yoko Ono.

lol, thanks. I needed that

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

War is natural to humans, as to other species.

Nothing my bitching and moaning can do about that huh. Smh

[Hugorfonics]

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Strawman, I never said that it was.  Why pretend that?  It's dishonest. 

It was an assumption based off generalizing what you were saying.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Raiding obviously requires there be someone to raid.  As I told you, look at The Shield Islands.  Or look at The Stony Shore or the raiding up the Mander.  You could look at the Kingsmoot too for how Euron wins the support of The Iron Lords and what he offers them.

Harren the Black ruled the Riverlands, did he raid that? And mass democracy is just one part of the old way, an ambiguous term that means different.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Euron very much is a follower of The Old Way  .  It's what he has been doing on Silence all these years and why he has a crew of mute thralls with their tongues cut out. 

Conflating tongue removal with an iron born old way of life is extremely simplistic and stereotypical based off of one person. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Theon shifted his seat. "My uncle Euron has not been seen in the islands for close on two years. He may be dead." If so, it might be for the best. Lord Balon's eldest brother had never given up the Old Way, even for a day. His Silence, with its black sails and dark red hull, was infamous in every port from Ibben to Asshai, it was said.

 

Selling slaves for money rather than keeping them as thralls or salt wives is not part of The Old Way, true, and appears to be an innovation that Victarion disapproves of but Victarion would happily have killed the men rather than sell them - that's The Old Way at it's purest.

Theon was a child raised in the green lands, while he must remember some parts of iron born culture surely most was influenced by his captors, as we see.
And the purest is thralls or salt wives, not a war to the death!

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

What you said was that Jaime took her and "she was walking the path of the thrall".  It's obvious bullshit, Jaime is protecting her not carrying out some Westerosi version of The Old Way (and you are perversely trying to represent The Old Way as a means of offering protection to women).

(Im not, for some reason your just assuming that. Im not defending ironborn culture, just pointing out its a subsect of Westerosi.)
I said basically, and I stand by it.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

The rest is pure distraction as you show your general undifferentiated contempt for everything and anything in place of the holes / complete fabrications in your argument.  Bonifer, as religious zealots tend to do, does not look approvingly on those with loose sexual morals (as he / they see it) and turfs her out.  She's a refugee, Jaime protects her, end of story.  Nothing to do with thralldom (actually salt wifery) or sexual slavery; nothing to do with war crimes and The Old Way.

"Jaime protects her, end of story." You have misread the passage. Idk how else to say it, she was in her home, raped, and exiled as a punishment, forced to be a camp follower. To not view Pia as a sex slave that Jaime created by putting Bonifer in charge is simply misreading the text.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

So if a society has laws then it's because everyone is a rapist and murderer and all these things are part of the culture? 

I think you'll find the laws are against things that are generally considered unacceptable by the society or culture and that they deem deserve punishment, often quite severely, like gelding or sending to The Wall or execution, all punishments meted out for rape in Westeros.  It's the same where you live even if you have to scratch your head every morning about why there are all these laws against you carrying out the bona fide cultural practices you would otherwise engage in.

Those crimes are animalistic. The ancients called it natural law, like incest and cannibalism. 
First night is clearly a thing rumored to be practiced today, to ignore it is willfully ignorant. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Jaime does indeed consider that Walton and men like him would commit rape in wartime but then go home to their wives and families and be law-abiding citizens in peacetime.  It's why the attitude of military commanders to rape, the punishment to be meted out and the use of rape as a weapon of war are being debated in this topic on war crimes.

Jaime considers it a thing, not criminal.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

The Free Folk are very like the Ironborn in some ways, a marginal society who raid the more prosperous lands on their borders and take women as property.  Neither of these are Westerosi traditions or cultures though the attempt to change Ironborn culture by forbidding The Old Way has been a kind of project since the Targaryen conquest.

Even past the conquest of Dorne there are raids back and forth with them and the Reach. In fact when any of the other culture is seen there its assumed its a raiding party.  The red widow was gonna sack Ser Useless' camp, all these raids and mini battles are a Westeros tradition.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

For reasons known only to yourself you are doubling down on this and portraying the kidnappers as emancipators

I didnt. I said Harrenhal may be worse. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Except of course, not all the neighbours fucking suck and only the ironborn have this cherished tradition or raiding everyone for plunder, thralls and sex slaves, glorified and codified into a way of life.  The Wildlings raid and fight and steal women from each other and only the most daring go over The Wall for plunder(?) and women but they aren't part of Westeros at all while the Ironborn are half in / half out. 

Of course they fucking suck. The story opens with a 6 year old told not to look away while his father isis's some lunatic. From Sandors ridicule of knights to Tyrions of the wall, we can obviously see that all of Westeros fucking sucks. As the story continues the story gets darker and the lords get greedier. When it comes to sexual assaults, we can simply look at Robert who supposedly took a daughter under whomever lords house he was staying at, which was a time of great peace for Westeros.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Odd that you are quiet on condemning the slaughter and enslavement of the Yazidis even if you imagined it in the middle ages ("it wouldn't be as alarming [then]") as if you know that by saying what you really think you would have to criticise the Ironborn for doing the same thing, something you have quixotically decided to defend as benefiting the victims.

I didnt mean alarming as in not bad, its obviously bad. I meant alarming as in, the whole world sucked so why expect any place to be tolerable. 

Again, im not defending, im rationalizing. Its all bad, slavery, serfdom and thralldom. To call them synonyms isnt exactly wrong, however there are slight differences and the one that sucks the least is thralldom. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Your shades are painted black.  The Old Way is a unique practice and the thralls / salt wives taken back have no analogue in Westeros

All I can say is, like with Pia, youve misread the passages.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Ned's marriage to Cat is a happy one

I wouldnt call it sad, but not happy. Ashara isnt the only ghost, Brandon as well. Not to mention the constant presence of Jon turns her into a grade a asshole. 
But, you misread passages all the time, so I guess, believe what you want. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

This is meant to display the extreme misogyny in Westeros that you want to include in your ass-pull argument that adultery is punishable by death

Are you really disputing that Westeros is extremely misogynistic? 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

t's not peculiar at all, you are fabricating something then acting surprised that there is no support for your fabrication in the text.   

This is one of those terrible arguments and eye-popping conclusions I mentioned.  You are simply making things up in bad faith in order to try and support an absurd position you took out of contrariness.

Im not making up anything. 2 wives cheated, one killed the other was thought to be. Thats text.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Um.  It's one of those water is wet moments.  He doesn't need to call it treason because it is understood that it is.  If you're very young (you're not) or have no historical background to understand treason in a feudal monarchy (you have) you might need this explained but the author doesn't think it needs it.

I have something, sure. But nothing substantial, a bit of plantagenet and romonov maybe... but its really not much. For example Ive been told that decapitation is honorable and Gared should be proud Ned got him, but all I see is carnage and doubt that Slynt was killed in a purposeful honorable way. 

Is it treason? To me treason is like selling nuclear codes to the russians, or like launching coups to subvert the essence of the constitution and the will of the peoples. I mean, I think its obvious that I view the whole medieval society as backwards and dumb and little relation to our life and politics, but if you wanna go by how the middld ages of our times acted (which has even less relation to the fictitious world GRRM invented), then my mind springs to the princes in the tower.

IIrc Woodvile was never decalred a traitor, neither alive nor posthumous and her probably murdered sons were just that. Murdered or swept under the rug, not legally killed like so many "traitors" were at the time or how you believe, without text, that Robert would have "legally" killed the wife and kids. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

though I do think the thralls and salt wives are second class citizens who are really slaves by a nicer name, certainly property that can be punished lethally if the owner is enraged and the property at fault.

And when Arya is threatened with her feet removed if she departs Harrenhal, is that not slavery by another name?

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

I don't agree at all with the silly and morally smug condemnation of feudal Westeros as animalistic or the feudal nobility as war hawk megalomaniacs.  That you find it peculiar that the novels aren't full of husbands beating their wives to death is a problem with your own faulty comprehension (actually deliberate invention of alternate facts

What I find peculiar is we don't see as many wives getting caught cheating on their husbands. But from our 2 outta 2 examples, they lead to death and probable. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

and projection of distaste for all these smelly barbarians who don't live in an enlightened and pluralistic utopia.

Then they should take a fucking bath.

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

If the tail end of the word salad is saying that adultery is a crime punishable by death throughout Westeros and that treason is not and you believe you have textual support for this (notwithstanding your peculiar confusion that you could not find supporting evidence for this a mere two sentences ago) your attempt to substitute your fabricated alternate facts is, um, not well founded.  This is really poor stuff.

Its not alternative facts, its text in the damn book. Your not even misreading the text here, your just ignoring it. If I were to guess why its because you dont want to see the middle ages as smelly barbarians being all terrible, which would of course be an alternative fact. But thats of course an assumption, so forgive me if im wrong. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

I think Euron did break the law though as he made use of his brother's property without his permission, and it's very clear that Victarion would not have given such permission. 

Your clearly making up laws. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

The idea that Balon would have taken a "lethal approach" (or that he is some kind of legalistic paragon a la Stannis) and executed one of his own brothers over a piece of property picked up as booty is unsupported - and that is putting it charitably.  Balon kicks out Euron so it doesn't end in kinslaying between Victarion and Euron, not because of a judge's astute reading of non-existent laws.

The issue is if there are more laws then like whatever the old king said, (first night? lol) we dont really know em like that. The masesters do but theyre not wanted in the Islands which just further confuses the issue. 

On 1/23/2024 at 1:49 PM, the trees have eyes said:

male slave = a thrall; a female (sex) slave = a salt wife

Every female captive taken is ceremoniously taken as a spouse? That seems excessive. That Ironborn have a rock and many salt wives is gross and polygamous therefore misogynistic and class structured in the family, all bad stuff, but it is something of a family. Like Vic was crying, its probable he loved her, its impractical to think that happens with all female captives. 

[the trees have eyes]

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

It was an assumption based off generalizing what you were saying.

You misunderstood?  Ok.  But you misunderstand The Old Way.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Harren the Black ruled the Riverlands, did he raid that? And mass democracy is just one part of the old way, an ambiguous term that means different.

Case in point.  An elected monarch (like via the Anglo-Saxon Witan) does not a mass democracy make.  Even a child could understand that.

We don't know how Harren the Black treated the riverlands after he conquered them.  We can assume he raided them  extensively beforehand and raided other neighbouring kingdoms afterwards.  I imagine some of the smallfolk were taken back to the Iron Isles and the bulk were treated as as thralls and salt wives in situ.  They're all second class citizens however and, whether they are eastern Europeans living in a form of Ostmark or akin to Indians living in British India, they aren't equal to Ironborn.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Conflating tongue removal with an iron born old way of life is extremely simplistic and stereotypical based off of one person. 

Don't be a twit.  You stated, on absolutely no textual foundation whatsoever that "Euron specifically is not a follower of the old ways" so I gave you a simple quote to counter that obvious nonsense.  As usual, you deflect, distract and attempt to deny the text as it's inconvenient for you.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Theon was a child raised in the green lands, while he must remember some parts of iron born culture surely most was influenced by his captors, as we see.
And the purest is thralls or salt wives, not a war to the death!

The war to the death I never mentioned and which I specifically denied in my last post to you?  That you said in your opening statement was a generalisation of my point when I told you, word for word "Raiding obviously requires there be someone to raid", yet you repeat it here.  That's a bad faith argument.  Of course it's thralls and salt wives (and plunder) - that's the whole point of it! - but those thralls and salt wives come from preying on their neighbours.

A Clash of Kings - Theon III

Theon returned to his Sea Bitch. The masts of his longships stood outlined against the sky along the pebbled beach. Of the fishing village, nothing remained but cold ashes that stank when it rained. The men had been put to the sword, all but a handful that Theon had allowed to flee to bring the word to Torrhen's Square. Their wives and daughters had been claimed for salt wives, those who were young enough and fair. The crones and the ugly ones had simply been raped and killed, or taken for thralls if they had useful skills and did not seem likely to cause trouble.

 

This is The Old Way.  Despite being raised in The Greenlands Theon understands it just fine.  Even if he didn't Cleftjaw and the other Ironborn know the ropes.  No one is making these women's lives better, they're property though the "ugly ones" will be spared systematic rape and just used as slave labour, as long as they're useful, otherwise they're killed.  This is pure ISIS.

 

You must understand all this, it's there in black and white on page but you pretend Theon is confused about it all, that Euron doesn't really follow The Old Way and that The Old Way isn't what it in fact is.  I'll take what's on page versus whatever you casually pluck from your curious mind.  Why not accept the books even if you don't like what the author writes?  You can criticise them without distorting them.

 

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

(Im not, for some reason your just assuming that. Im not defending ironborn culture, just pointing out its a subsect of Westerosi.)

You are misrepresenting The Old Way and quite deliberately.  Even comparisons to ISIS don't give you pause.  You've bent over backwards to say Pretty Pia would be better off with The Ironborn than otherwise, I mean just "part of the family", right?  If this isn't defending Ironborn culture I don't know what you think it is.  The reason for this seems an undifferentiated contempt for everything in story which doesn't help at all with understanding that Jaime rescued Pia rather than captured her.  It's not hard to understand unless you are weirdly invested in refusing to.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I said basically, and I stand by it.

And there we have it.  Pia "is "basically" walking the path of a thrall".  Is every refugee a thrall or property in your view?  Was Beric keeping all those smallfolk in The Hollow Hill as "basically" thralls or was he providing shelter and protection?  You are fundamentally misrepresenting Jaime's actions with Pia.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

"Jaime protects her, end of story." You have misread the passage. Idk how else to say it, she was in her home, raped, and exiled as a punishment, forced to be a camp follower. To not view Pia as a sex slave that Jaime created by putting Bonifer in charge is simply misreading the text.

This is lazy beyond belief and quite repugnant.  Lazy because your typical disdain for everything in story means you seem unable (or simply don't bother) to distinguish between what happens to Pia under The Bloody Mummers or Gregor Clegane and when Jaime and yes, even Bonifer, take over.  Repugnant because Jaime has Ilyn Payne take the head off a man who tries to use her as a sex slave, something even a witless moron couldn't fail to notice.

Pia is a refugee.  She takes up with Jaime's squire because she chooses to not because she's anyone's captive or property.  There's a principle here called consent that is missing from The Ironborn's The Old Way.

One of us is misreading the text regarding Pia and it's not me.....

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Those crimes are animalistic. The ancients called it natural law, like incest and cannibalism. 
First night is clearly a thing rumored to be practiced today, to ignore it is willfully ignorant. 

A man beating his wife to death for cheating on him is a crime.  It happens today, sadly, as well as historically / fictionally.  The individual could be described as acting in an animalistic fashion but obviously they are punished for it today (unless you live in societies that consider women property) as they were / are historically / fictionally in medieval / pseudo-medieval societies.  Same for rape.  It's simply arrogant and lazy to dismiss entire cultures as animalistic because of violent crimes.  It doesn't illuminate the text, just your own biases and the filter you read and understand the story through.

Incest and cannibalism are clearly taboo in Westeros with the Targs being the sole exception to the former and justifying their right to rule through the maintenance of the special bloodline.  This tells us nothing about The Seven Kingdoms as incest and cannibalism are not cultural practices that can be wheeled out to "not defend" Ironborn culture to show all are equally bad in your eyes. 

Prima nocte plays absolutely no part in story that I can see beyond being wheeled out by Roose as a defence for his murdering the miller and raping his wife, along with a bit of finger-pointing at the Umbers ("people are saying" as those looking to muddy the waters with false accusations say today).  Ned would have punished Roose and obviously there is nothing "wilfully ignorant" about the view that prima nocte is not a widespread cultural practice in the North due to it being (according to you) an animalistic society / culture.  That's a poorly supported contention.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Jaime considers it a thing, not criminal.

What does Jaime consider "not criminal"?  When do we see anyone under his direct command commit rape like with The Mountain's Men?  Why do you think he executes the Lannister guardsman for trying to rape Pia?

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Even past the conquest of Dorne there are raids back and forth with them and the Reach. In fact when any of the other culture is seen there its assumed its a raiding party.  The red widow was gonna sack Ser Useless' camp, all these raids and mini battles are a Westeros tradition.

What kind of raids, though?  Warfare, border skirmishing, raids =/= enslavement expeditions.  Unless there is a specific philosophy and purpose behind them that justify or require it.....

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I didnt. I said Harrenhal may be worse. 

It's true that Harrenhall is a horror show.  But it's a wartime horror show that is a temporary nightmare for the inhabitants (should they happen to survive it).  It's a nightmare that ends when peace is shakily restored and rapists start getting their heads cut off.  The Stony Shore or The shields show that the raid is the beginning of the nightmare as ugly or useless women are raped and killed with the pretty or useful shipped off for a lifetime of slavery.

I think the fundamental problem with your argument is that as you want to believe that the Ironborn are no different to anyone else and that they are improving the lot of women by offering security (the caveman with club quid pro quo) rather than being one of the main engines of destruction, murder, rape and enslavement.  They are not giving women a better alternative, they are destroying their lives, murdering their families and taking them as booty.  And rather than being a series of war crimes this is all totally fine as it's how the system is designed to work.  It's an outlier in that regard.  It's why The Old Way was banned by the Targs.  It's why it's really bad news that it's back.  The other six kingdoms do not do the same thing just without a name for it....

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Again, im not defending, im rationalizing. Its all bad, slavery, serfdom and thralldom. To call them synonyms isnt exactly wrong, however there are slight differences and the one that sucks the least is thralldom. 

I don't know what goes on in your head and I don't want to know.  Thralls are captured in war and taken as booty.  The experience of the average peasant in the medieval world or in story is very different to this traumatizing event and total uprooting from place, family and culture to be slave labour that makes a thrall.  The villagers and farmers taken as thralls really wouldn't share your complacent view that they were better off.  The Old Way and the Ironborn are not the example of a society or system you should be championing.  Is that not clear?  And is this really you "not defending" The Ironborn?

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

All I can say is, like with Pia, youve misread the passages.

You repeating a false statement doesn't make it so.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I wouldnt call it sad, but not happy. Ashara isnt the only ghost, Brandon as well. Not to mention the constant presence of Jon turns her into a grade a asshole. 
But, you misread passages all the time, so I guess, believe what you want. 

 Catelyn loves her husband and her five children and she is obviously happy.  Everyone has baggage and marriages are not Disney fairy tales so she is not skipping along singing about how everything is perfect. Happiness in real life =/= Happiness in Romances.  Accepting your partner's flaws and loving them anyway is a precondition for a happy marriage.  What a weird thing to use as a litmus test for reading comprehension.

Besides, you used Ned telling her never to mention Ashara's name as an argument for the misogyny of Westeros and it's the maladroitness of this example that amused me.  I mean you're talking about husband's beating wives to death with their fists for adultery as the done thing in Westeros and you bring up Ned and Catelyn.  I know it's all awful and they're all the same to you but I'm not the one misreading.  Really.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Are you really disputing that Westeros is extremely misogynistic? 

I'm very clearly saying that adultery is not a crime punishable by death.  You are shifty shifting the argument as you tend to do.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Im not making up anything. 2 wives cheated, one killed the other was thought to be. Thats text.

You clearly are making things up.  Your words: "Eddard assumed the penalty for adultery was death, and there's no reason to think that isn't the case for the rest of the Sunset. Balon certainly took a legality view on the subject which is why Euron was banished."  That's not text.  You can't find support for your contention, much to your strange confusion, because it isn't a thing.  It's not text.

I don't want to be constantly distracted by this sort of nonsense but you are persistent.  The King often sleeps around with noblewomen (Aerys, Robert) - absolutely a feature of early modern courts - but not so often married ones so, e.g., Tywin wanted to question Joanna about Tyrion's paternity but it's silly to imagine he intended to beat her to death with his fists - and even more so that he could do so perfectly legally.  Black Walder Frey is known to sleep with a lot of his extended Frey relatives, even some of the married ones.  Lord Merryweather doesn't give a shit that Lady Tanda is sharing Cersei's bed (in fact it works to his advantage that she does).  These women aren't dicing with death but they are risking reputational damage.  And then there's Amerei Frey, "Gatehouse Ami":

A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

"Gatehouse Ami, gods be good. I couldn't believe that Lancel picked that one. What's wrong with that boy?"

"He's grown pious," said Jaime, "but it wasn't him who did the picking. Lady Amerei's mother is a Darry. Our uncle thought she'd help Lancel win the Darry smallfolk."

"How, by fucking them? You know why they call her Gatehouse Ami? She raises her portcullis for every knight who happens by. Lancel had best find an armorer to make him a horned helm."

 

A horned helm, not some knuckledusters.  Can we drop this shit now that adultery is legally punishable by death?

 

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I have something, sure. But nothing substantial, a bit of plantagenet and romonov maybe... but its really not much. For example Ive been told that decapitation is honorable and Gared should be proud Ned got him, but all I see is carnage and doubt that Slynt was killed in a purposeful honorable way. 

The story is full of carnage but in a thread about war crimes you could try to be on topic and try harder, not just issue a blanket condemnation because it all "fucking sucks".  I feel sorry for whoever marked your history essays.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Is it treason? To me treason is like selling nuclear codes to the russians, or like launching coups to subvert the essence of the constitution and the will of the peoples.

Yes, it's treason.  This can't be unclear.  What is clear is that you don't think it should be but that doesn't inform the reader about the world, it just leads you to be (or act) confused and posit alternative explanations or make misleading arguments and faulty "compare and contrast" digressions.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I mean, I think its obvious that I view the whole medieval society as backwards and dumb

Yes, you can be sure that everyone clearly understands that statement as an honestly held opinion for whatever good it does you or the forum.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

and little relation to our life and politics, but if you wanna go by how the middld ages of our times acted (which has even less relation to the fictitious world GRRM invented), then my mind springs to the princes in the tower.

IIrc Woodvile was never decalred a traitor, neither alive nor posthumous and her probably murdered sons were just that. Murdered or swept under the rug, not legally killed like so many "traitors" were at the time or how you believe, without text, that Robert would have "legally" killed the wife and kids. 

What is the incoherent point behind this word salad?  Richard of Gloucester was named Lord Protector in Edward IV's will and emerged the winner in the power struggle with the Woodville family, hence the two boys being removed from Elizabeth Woodville's custody, one of them from the Westminster Abbey where she had sought sanctuary.  Richard had her marriage to Edward declared illegitimate thereby making all her children illegitimate, himself his brother's heir and the rightful King, and the princes in the tower were never seen again.  He's one of the most reviled kings in English History thanks in part to Shakespeare (although when his body was discovered a few years ago it did have a very distinct curvature of the spine) but mostly because of this.

If you're trying to prove something about adultery, Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was declared invalid (out of pure convenience one imagines) because of Edward's prior marriage to Eleanor Butler so if one believes the charges then Edward was the one guilty of adultery not Elizabeth.  There is nothing to accuse her of.  Clearly Edward as King cannot commit treason against himself by committing adultery.  I don't know if I needed to say that but I thought I should.  To prevent misunderstandings.

If you're trying to prove something about treason, then, yes, in all probability her sons were murdered as realpolitik (and the fact they were widely considered the legitimate heirs) would necessitate but this is obviously murder, however convenient for Richard, hence the plausible deniability of their disappearance (no body, no crime).  Quite obviously children are not guilty of treason by virtue of their birth and there is no legal basis to consider them as traitors.  Again this shouldn't need to be said but we are inhabiting your head canon so who knows.

Finally, and most obviously, there is no legal basis for Robert to kill Cersei's children.  The crime is Cersei's and as, unlike the princes in the tower, they are not the king's children (even illegitimate ones) but Jaime's children there is no basis for them to dispute the succession.  They could be declared illegitimate, their paternity denied and be exiled to Casterly Rock or wherever.  It's precisely because Ned knows Robert will kill them out of fury and vengeance, not a fine legalistic sense (as you imagine for Balon) that he warns Cersei to take them and be gone before Robert returns.  Not his smartest move but that's Ned.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

And when Arya is threatened with her feet removed if she departs Harrenhal, is that not slavery by another name?

Yes.  But it is wartime slavery that has an end.  Bonifer, who you revile as no different to Hoat or Gregor won't be cutting off anyone's feet or scouring the Riverlands for smallfolk to be herded up to Harrenhall as slave labour.  Law and order is restored and no one is a slave except those abducted as a thrall or salt wife by The Ironborn.  No one is herded back to Lannisport or anywhere else.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

What I find peculiar is we don't see as many wives getting caught cheating on their husbands. But from our 2 outta 2 examples, they lead to death and probable. 

It's because you are looking for what you want to find rather than looking at what is there.  You've reached a conclusion before examining the evidence.  Look at Jaime and Daven joking about Lancel being given a wife they consider highly likely to be unfaithful: it's about her giving him horns repeatedly not how quickly he bludgeons her to death.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Then they should take a fucking bath.

I think maybe you should consider how you come across.  Without the benefit of the enlightenment or ideas about liberal democracy or human rights they do think and act differently to us.  It's mind-numbing that you despise them for it.  They can't "take a bath" and suddenly exemplify and deliver on those ideals (realistically how well do we do, even armed with them).

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Its not alternative facts, its text in the damn book.

It's not.  The only thing in the books you have created this fantastical shape in the clouds out of is Victarion beating his salt wife to death.  Do I really need to tell you there is no such thing as a salt wife outside The Iron Isles?  She's property not a citizen-wife.  You appear confused that you can't find support for your assertion about adultery punishable by death being a thing throughout "Sunset" but claim it's in the book?  Wanting something to be true or textually supported doesn't make it so and nor does loudly repeating that it is.  Not for Kayleigh McEnany, not for you.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Your not even misreading the text here, your just ignoring it. If I were to guess why its because you dont want to see the middle ages as smelly barbarians being all terrible, which would of course be an alternative fact. But thats of course an assumption, so forgive me if im wrong. 

This is just false.  No one is pretending Victarion does not beat his salt wife to death.  But if you think people could legally beat their wives to death in the middle ages, smelly barbarians or not, you're wrong.  There is zero evidence for it in story either outside the Ironborn, and then only as a subset of second-class captives, zero otherwise.  Yet you try to extrapolate this one data point into a 7K-wide legal principle and claim the text backs you up (though you can't find that back up).  Sorry, but that's clearly not true.

As for my view of the middle ages:  well I don't want to get too off topic but no, I don't consider the renaissance was a product of smelly barbarians and no I don't consider that view to be an alternative fact.  I think someone would have to be a colossally ignorant and self-righteous moron to think it was, but there it is.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Your clearly making up laws. 

I'm not the one doing that.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

The issue is if there are more laws then like whatever the old king said, (first night? lol) we dont really know em like that. The masesters do but theyre not wanted in the Islands which just further confuses the issue. 

Thanks for the obfuscation.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Every female captive taken is ceremoniously taken as a spouse? That seems excessive. That Ironborn have a rock and many salt wives is gross and polygamous therefore misogynistic and class structured in the family, all bad stuff, but it is something of a family. Like Vic was crying, its probable he loved her, its impractical to think that happens with all female captives. 

No, the Theon chapter on The Stony Shore raid I've already quoted is clearer. 

A Clash of Kings - Theon III

The men had been put to the sword, all but a handful that Theon had allowed to flee to bring the word to Torrhen's Square. Their wives and daughters had been claimed for salt wives, those who were young enough and fair. The crones and the ugly ones had simply been raped and killed, or taken for thralls if they had useful skills and did not seem likely to cause trouble.

A salt wife can expect to see her about to be "Rock husband" kill her actual husband in front of her eyes, rape and murder her ugly aunt and useless mother and take her as a captive.  Pure ISIS to me.  "Something of a family" to you.  What an appalling argument from someone who keeps saying without irony that he isn't defending or writing an apologia for them.  Your arguments are often lazy, unsubstantiated or really unpleasant.