On gods

[Aldarion]

OK, so this is just a jumble of ideas, but condier:

The priests of Rhollor believe that there is a fight between light and darkness, and that the Lord of Light is the only one who can save the world.

Now, there is a chance that:

1) there is indeed such a conflict

but

2) they are wrong about saving the world.

Slavic religion for example had such dualistic conflict of light and darkness (Belobog and Crnobog, Perun and Veles):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobog_and_Belobog

https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/veles-and-perun-legendary-battle-two-slavic-gods-005585

But this conflict was not necessarily a conflict of good and evil. Perun represents order and Veles chaos; Perun is sky while Veles is underground; but neither of them was evil. Veles was a god of nature, and was as likely to help humans as he was to smite them - as was Perun, in fact.

Secondly, the conflict was merely a part of a much larger and more complex network of relationships of various gods. There were many other gods, and conflicts between them led to the day-night cycle, to the seasons and so on.

Now, if magic in ASoIaF is indeed reprepresentation of the divine, then we may have proof of the existence of the Old Gods, Rhollor, the Drowned God, Mother Rhoyne, and maybe also the Seven-Faced God. And drawing on the previously discussed, case could be made that all of the gods are necessary for existence of humanity. Or at least, most of them.

If we go to alchemy, there are four elements which give life: fire, water, air, earth. Rhollor represents fire; Drowned God and Mother Rhoyne are obviously water; and Old Gods are earth. But which god represents air? I do not remember any, and it likely isn't the Seven Faced God.

In fact, the Seven Faced God likely represents death, and may well be the same as the Great Other. As explained before, all other gods have magic - the Seven have none. Or maybe they do?

I "stole" these descriptions from the net to save time, but note how Others and wighs are in fact connected to stars:

Quote

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning. Jon knew that face. Othor, he thought, reeling back. Gods, he's dead, he's dead, I saw him dead.

• AGOT Jon VII

"What color are their eyes?" [Jon] asked [Gilly]. "Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold.”

• ACOK Jon III

He punched and pulled at the wight's wrists, to no avail. He kicked Paul between the legs, uselessly. The world shrank to two blue stars, a terrible crushing pain, and a cold so fierce that his tears froze over his eyes.

• ASOS Sam III

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

• ASOS Bran IV

Two, three, four. Bran lost count. They surged up violently amidst sudden clouds of snow. Some wore black cloaks, some ragged skins, some nothing. All of them had pale flesh and black hands. Their eyes glowed like pale blue stars.

• ADWD Bran II

This would make it nearly all of the appearances of the Others, and all of them have stars in the eyes. And what is the holy symbol of the Seven? The seven-pointed star. And God of Death - Stranger - very specifically has stars for his eyes. Stranger is also portrayed apart from other six gods, and is portrayed separately from the other six. He is also the only one of the six who explicitly can grant magical powers, being equated to the Many Faced God in Braavos.

It would also explain their followers' hatred for the Old Gods and Weirwoods, which was on display when Andals initially settled Westeros. While said hatred also has much more mundane explanations, if the Seven are connected to the Others, they would want to destroy anything preventing them from returning.

Magic is also connected to gods - and in all cases requires blood sacrifice or something else blood-related. Children of the Forest used human sacrifice to activate the Hammer of the Waters, and may have also used their magic to create the Others in the first place (according to show). They could also speak to the dead. All of this directly connects the Others to the Old Gods. In fact, it is likely that the Great Other may well be not just the Stranger, but also one of the Old Gods. Old Gods after all represent nature and its concepts, and death is a quite natural concept.

Going back to question of balance of nature however, both the Great Other and Rhollor would be necessary, and victory of either would doom humanity. Rhollor wants eternal summer; the Great Other wants eternal winter. Rhollor is a Lord of Light while the Great Other is god of Dark. Eternal light means eternal summer, leading to drought and death; eternal night means eternal winter, leading to freezing to death. Both the Great Other and Rhllor also want to extinguish all other religions.

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

As explained before, all other gods have magic - the Seven have none.

Actually several people get prayers answered and Davos has a vision of the Mother.

[Aldarion]

47 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Actually several people get prayers answered and Davos has a vision of the Mother.

Ah, OK. Thanks.

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Going back to question of balance of nature however, both the Great Other and Rhollor would be necessary, and victory of either would doom humanity. Rhollor wants eternal summer; the Great Other wants eternal winter. Rhollor is a Lord of Light while the Great Other is god of Dark. Eternal light means eternal summer, leading to drought and death; eternal night means eternal winter, leading to freezing to death. Both the Great Other and Rhllor also want to extinguish all other religions.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Which is why when people say Daenerys/Stannis winning would 'balance' stuff I don't believe it.

[Aldarion]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think this hits the nail on the head. Which is why when people say Daenerys/Stannis winning would 'balance' stuff I don't believe it.

Precisely. And I mean, Melisandre is a religious zealot who relies on her god for advice and then consistently misinterprets it. We are obviously meant to think there is something wrong there.

The only religions that have actual balance are the Old Gods (though that may depend on their actual nature) and the Faith of the Seven. Old Gods are, to my understanding, Celtic Gods - this means that they are essentially spirits of nature, of lakes, forests and mountains. So they basically cover entirety of nature as their domain. Seven by contrast cover the seven aspects of human being: social organization (Father - justice, law, etc); family life (Mother - love, mercy, birth, life); safety (Warrior - warfare, protection); creation and craft (Smith - workmanship, creation, repairs); young age (Maiden); old age (Crone - wisdom, guidance); and death (Stranger).

By contrast, all other gods are exclusive. Rhollor is fire god and nothing else; Drowned God wants to drown men and his domain is only the sea; Stallion wants a world of grass. Victory of any one of these gods would obviously be a very bad thing.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

Precisely. And I mean, Melisandre is a religious zealot who relies on her god for advice and then consistently misinterprets it. We are obviously meant to think there is something wrong there.

The only religions that have actual balance are the Old Gods (though that may depend on their actual nature) and the Faith of the Seven. Old Gods are, to my understanding, Celtic Gods - this means that they are essentially spirits of nature, of lakes, forests and mountains. So they basically cover entirety of nature as their domain. Seven by contrast cover the seven aspects of human being: social organization (Father - justice, law, etc); family life (Mother - love, mercy, birth, life); safety (Warrior - warfare, protection); creation and craft (Smith - workmanship, creation, repairs); young age (Maiden); old age (Crone - wisdom, guidance); and death (Stranger).

By contrast, all other gods are exclusive. Rhollor is fire god and nothing else; Drowned God wants to drown men and his domain is only the sea; Stallion wants a world of grass. Victory of any one of these gods would obviously be a very bad thing.

Mel we get the impression had a gift far beyond many of  her peers but refused to stay with her org and let them help her hence she can often jump to wrong conclusions more level heads at her firegod temple may take time to get right

When it comes to religions it DOES look like dany may become.a messiah to the fire priest religion and raise most of essos slaves  to her banner overthrowing the vastly outnumbered slaverd . The free cities ,quarth and slavers bay could all fall her to slaves within and hand her an incredible   finabcial and military launch pad for their jihad!!

We know things will get rough for the planet with the new winter comming so the northerners may feel.more sacrifices.to the old gods are needed or the growing power of thr faith mitant down south and of course  theres whatever the hell euron is doing!  So while there may not be gods their followers in their own way  could get more extreme as the  long winter kicks  in!

The idea of counterbalancing gods could workbut we dont know how real each one is! The drowned god seems.to be just a bunch of savages that happened to witness the deep/old ones and have  been captivated since(other similar things in leng and the baslisk isles and 1000 islands) and took it that the sea made them strong too and they also had a right to take women and men as slaves and birthing units! The horselords fear a world.where there is no grass to feed   livestoclk thus they burn citied and towns to leave grass to please theit stupid horsegod.....both these savages (ironborn and dothraki)may feel a compulsion to push harder  to please such gods as the world begins to freeze up!!!! 

 

As for the gods themselves  you may be rigjt about balance. The 5 forts enormous wall may be agaisnt the opposite of the whites walkers ie heat...an ever increasing dessert (we know vast parts of the east are becoming dessert) the former territory of  hykroon has been wrecked by it. 

it could be not enough winter and ice hurts as much as heals!  For all we know the huge winters keep the old/deeps ones at bay! Or the nightmares in sothyros or the nightmare fuel aerrea targaryan broght back that only ice water can kill! Or the dragons themselves

 

[Northern Sword]

Love this subject. A lot of these thoughts have ben bubbling in my head for years. 

The extreme gods on one end or the other may represent doom if either of these sides win a total victory. The eternal struggle of, R'hllor - Fire/Light, and Water/Dark - represented by the Drowned God(Deep Ones). Or you could look through the lens of Fire\Ice with fits more thematically as it is called ASOIAF. Which changes things a bit. R'hllor/Great Other

In the middle is the The Old Gods(Earth) and The Seven(not air, surely- But what?), these gods have representation on both sides. i.e. The Stranger and The Others. Or simply balance. Both have life and death elements.

Seems we are missing the air element. The thread of Cyvasse only has Red/Blue/Green was a good one. So, maybe Air does not factor in at all. File that under questions that still need answers.

But it also looks like each faction has an Avatar for their respective god. Daenerys/R'hllor, Euron/Drowned God or Deep Ones, Bran/Old Gods. Again, The Seven don't, What does this mean ? I sure cant puzzle it out.

Clearly, there is a magic component to R'hllor and The Old Gods. But what does that mean for The Seven and Drowned God?

On 2/26/2024 at 7:48 PM, Aldarion said:

Now, if magic in ASoIaF is indeed reprepresentation of the divine, then we may have proof of the existence of the Old Gods, Rhollor, the Drowned God, Mother Rhoyne, and maybe also the Seven-Faced God. And drawing on the previously discussed, case could be made that all of the gods are necessary for existence of humanity. Or at least, most of them.

Taking this thought a step further. When looking at the Seven. Imagine if there is another Class yet to be revealed. The Seven already have anointed Knights and Priests. Imagine if a Cleric or a Paladin entered the story. Would be real helpful to fight the undead. I'm not sayin... just sayin. Would a character who fits this mold fit into the Avatar class for the Seven if revealed ?

Unless of course, The Seven are represent by the Others as @Aldarion states, with the connection of stars. Never thought of that before. It Is plausible, as the Great Other would then slide into Avatar Status. But the fly in the ointment hear is the stranger is one of seven. The other six aspects seem contrary to the others and the walking dead. Surely the Maid and Mother don't fit into this narrative. 

On 2/27/2024 at 1:10 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Actually several people get prayers answered and Davos has a vision of the Mother

So we see the result of the Prayer, but we have yet to witness the deity itself.

Edited February 28 by Northern Sword

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

Taking this thought a step further. When looking at the Seven. Imagine if there is another Class yet to be revealed. The Seven already have anointed Knights and Priests. Imagine if a Cleric or a Paladin entered the story. Would be a real helpful to fight the undead. I'm not sayin... just sayin. Would a character who fits this mold fit into the Avatar class for the Seven if revealed ?

Unless of course, The Seven are represent by the Others as @Aldarion states, with the connection of stars. Never thought of that before. It Is plausible, as the Great Other would then slide into Avatar Status. But the fly in the ointment hear is the stranger is one of seven. The other six aspects seem contrary to the others and the walking dead. Surely the Maid and Mother don't fit into this narrative. 

Maybe the Seven actually have representation in all other religions? Or maybe the Death truly is the only god, or at least some sort of mediator, as presence of death is constant among all religions (Stranger of the Seven, and human sacrifices with the Old Gods, the Drowned God, and the Red God).

Edited February 27 by Aldarion

[Loose Bolt]

11 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

The Seven don't, What does this mean ? I sure cant puzzle it out.

Could Davos be agent of 7? After all he seems to have very strong plot armor.

[Potsk]

23 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Davos has a vision of the Mother.

Or a hallucination. He was deathly starved, dehydrated, and recovering from a battle in which his sons died and he almost drowned.

[Northern Sword]

10 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Could Davos be agent of 7? After all he seems to have very strong plot armor.

Davos is one of my favorites. Was it a vision, or was it a dehydrated hallucination. Flip a coin.

IF, he was representative of the Seven, would he be a singular aspect, i.e. The Stranger, Father, ? Can he represent all of them at once ? I have difficulty believing it. Can any one person represent 7 completely different aspects ?

I would love to have a definitive magical event, which would give clarity from the Seven on this. Same goes for Euron. 

[Craving Peaches]

On 2/27/2024 at 3:28 PM, Northern Sword said:

So we see the result of the Prayer, but we have yet to witness the deity itself.

Same goes for all religions in the series though. We see magic and those performing the magic say it's the god, but we've no proof either way and we've not seen any gods.

2 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Was it a vision, or was it a dehydrated hallucination.

Both.

2 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

IF, he was representative of the Seven, would he be a singular aspect, i.e. The Stranger, Father, ?

Well, potentially Davos could represent 3/7 aspects - warrior, father, smith; and another character could represent another 3/7 aspects - maiden, mother, crone (potentially Catelyn?) and then loads of people fit with the Stranger - Coldhands, the Gravedigger etc.

[SeanF]

Everyone except the Seven seems quite keen on human sacrifice.

And, perhaps human sacrifice was part of the Faith at some point.

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And, perhaps human sacrifice was part of the Faith at some point.

Probably.

Quote

Hukko is the name given by Pentoshi singers to a legendary Andal hero. According to legend he slew the swan maidens, who lured travelers to their deaths in the Velvet Hills; though not for their crimes but as sacrifices to the Seven. Some maesters note "Hukko" may be a rendering of the name of Hugor, the first king of the Andals.^[1]

Luckily, the Faith no longer pratices human sacrifice. In fact, it seems to be the only major religion to avoid the practice, possibly along with the Old Gods since the last human sacrifice on that front seems to have been several hundred years ago.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Probably.

Luckily, the Faith no longer pratices human sacrifice. In fact, it seems to be the only major religion to avoid the practice, possibly along with the Old Gods since the last human sacrifice on that front seems to have been several hundred years ago.

It looks as if human sacrifices were being performed at Whitetree.  I guess they take place on Skaggs, too.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

It looks as if human sacrifices were being performed at Whitetree.  I guess they take place on Skaggs, too.

We don't really know what goes on in Skagos so I reserve judgement. You might be right about the Wildlings, but there are a number of other explanations for what happened there:

• They were the remains of dead who were burned to stop them coming back as wights (I think this is the most likely option) or they were wights that were burned
• They were sacrifices to the Others a la Craster, rather than the Old Gods
• It was a form of burial (could be combined with the first option)

The human remains in Whitetree were burned, not a mode of sacrifice associated with the Old Gods, which in the past seemed to involve disembowelment and throat cutting rather than burning. So I am not certain that any form of human sacrifice has been associated with worship of the Old Gods for at least a couple of centuries.

[Northern Sword]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Same goes for all religions in the series though. We see magic and those performing the magic say it's the god, but we've no proof either way and we've not seen any gods.

Both.

Well, potentially Davos could represent 3/7 aspects - warrior, father, smith; and another character could represent another 3/7 aspects - maiden, mother, crone (potentially Catelyn?) and then loads of people fit with the Stranger - Coldhands, the Gravedigger etc.

Hmm. I see what you are saying. I did not use the right word. Rather than Deity/God, I guess I meant, tangible proof of magic.

With Mel, we have seen shadow babies, clear cut magic. Even her getting poisoned with no effect is noteworthy. 

With Bran- maybe the only god like example we have to this point, we see him reaching out through the trees and back in time. There is a no question of validity here. 

Even Varys' recollection of the voice that was summoned. While second hand information, it seems more tangible than Davos' example. The voice was summoned when his (parts) were thrown in the fire, would that indicate R'hllor ? I cant think of another example of someone hearing a R'hllor' s voice though. Now that I am thinking of it, this is a fairly significant question. Where did that magic(voice) originate? What other origins of magic are there ? Warlocks and ...?

When it comes to Davos, it is a shaky at best that this was a vision. Far more likely to be delirium or hallucination. 

7 is the holy number. Davos is 3/7 of that ... I guess. I mean, that doesn't feel right. I gotta think a better explanation awaits us at some point.

[Mourning Star]

I would suggest that the faith of the seven is a religion that has evolved from the memory of a time worshipping the Old Gods.

The Old Gods are the Weirwoods.

The faith of the seven comes from Andalos, in Essos, where we see evidence that at least once upon a time (I would suggest before the long night and the breaking of the arm of Dorne). The Ifequevron may have been the children of the forest.

The God-Kings of Ib, before their fall, did succeed in conquering and colonizing a huge swathe of northern Essos immediately south of Ib itself, a densely wooded region that had formerly been the home of a small, shy forest folk. Some say that the Ibbenese extinguished this gentle race, whilst others believe they went into hiding in the deeper woods or fled to other lands. The Dothraki still call the great forest along the northern coast the Kingdom of the Ifequevron, the name by which they knew the vanished forest-dwellers.
The fabled Sea Snake, Corlys Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was the first Westerosi to visit these woods. After his return from the Thousand Islands, he wrote of carved trees, haunted grottoes, and strange silences. A later traveler, the merchant-adventurer Bryan of Oldtown, captain of the cog Spearshaker, provided an account of his own journey across the Shivering Sea. He reported that the Dothraki name for the lost people meant "those who walk in the woods." None of the Ibbenese that Bryan of Oldtown met could say they had ever seen a woods walker, but claimed that the little people blessed a household that left offerings of leaf and stone and water overnight.

Above are mentioned the sacrificing by the Andals off the Swan Maidens, which sound to me like green seers.

I would go so far as to say the trees of the undying are corrupted Weirwoods.

I'm not the first to suggest that Naga's ribs are a grove of petrified Weirwoods.

We see the skinshifters take on aspects of their animals, and I don't think its a stretch to see a connection between this magic and all legends of half human creatures on Planetos.

Targaryens say they have the blood of the dragon, and the story of the nights king has him giving his seed to his corpse queen.

In fact wouldn't be surprised to find all the religions and all the magic rooted in the Weirwoods.

But back to Westeros.

The souls of men go down into the earth and into the trees. This makes the Old Gods not just a form of nature worship, but ancestor worship.

And this is where we can really see a reflection in the faith of the seven.

She found the High Septon waiting for her in a small seven-sided audience chamber. The room was sparse and plain, with bare stone walls, a rough-hewn table, three chairs, and a prayer bench. The faces of the Seven had been carved into the walls. Cersei thought the carvings crude and ugly, but there was a certain power to them, especially about the eyes, orbs of onyx, malachite, and yellow moonstone that somehow made the faces come alive.

Crude carved faces, reminiscent of the faces carved into the Weirwoods. 

And finally, even the song of the seven tells us... think of the children!

The Father's face is stern and strong,
he sits and judges right from wrong.
He weighs our lives, the short and long,
and loves the little children.

The Mother gives the gift of life,
and watches over every wife.
Her gentle smile ends all strife,
and she loves her little children.

The Warrior stands before the foe,
protecting us where e'er we go.
With sword and shield and spear and bow,
he guards the little children.

The Crone is very wise and old,
and sees our fates as they unfold.
She lifts her lamp of shining gold
to lead the little children.

The Smith, he labors day and night,
to put the world of men to right.
With hammer, plow, and fire bright,
he builds for little children.

The Maiden dances through the sky,
she lives in every lover's sigh.
Her smiles teach the birds to fly,
and gives dreams to little children.

The Seven Gods who made us all,
are listening if we should call.
So close your eyes, you shall not fall,
they see you, little children.
Just close your eyes, you shall not fall,
they see you, little children.

Edited February 28 by Mourning Star

[Springwatch]

On 2/27/2024 at 1:48 AM, Aldarion said:

If we go to alchemy, there are four elements which give life: fire, water, air, earth. Rhollor represents fire; Drowned God and Mother Rhoyne are obviously water; and Old Gods are earth. But which god represents air? I do not remember any, and it likely isn't the Seven Faced God.

Assuming magic and gods cover the same phenomena, we do have air: there are aeromancers in Asshai; Dany is gifted a 'magic' ointment to reveal spirits of the air; spirits of the air are mentioned multiple times, usually in connection with legend or ghosts.

On 2/27/2024 at 11:35 AM, astarkchoice said:

Mel we get the impression had a gift far beyond many of  her peers but refused to stay with her org and let them help her hence she can often jump to wrong conclusions more level heads at her firegod temple may take time to get right

Hm? Where did you get the impression that red priests are level headed? They're all ranting, human-sacrificing zealots. Except Thoros, and he knows he's more of a pink priest than a red one.

[astarkchoice]

17 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

 

Hm? Where did you get the impression that red priests are level headed? They're all ranting, human-sacrificing zealots. Except Thoros, and he knows he's more of a pink priest than a red one.

By level headed  i mean she seems to have left them to persue  her own visions of who the fire messiah is  like a maverick , the rest seem to follow the high  fire priests lead.