Can't Stand Erikson

[Arakasi]

You missed that Kalbear? That was pretty explicitly laid out. He's not coming back. His soul just got put into that baby in the girls womb back in Wickan lands.

[Arakasi]

We should really block out spoilers here. Could you spoiler text that line?

SPOILER: black

Yeah he did ascend. However Erikson in interviews has said WJ will not be back. EG: They won't be like the Emperor and Dancer, with them being mostly the same person. They're more elemental than that. Anyway he said he won't be back, so I'm guessing it won't be hugely important for the story.

[Werthead]

My GotM reread is ticking along now. Up to about page 400. To say this book is 50 times better on a re-read is not an exaggeration. Stuff makes sense! Somone utters a gnomic utterance and looks significantly at another character (two of Erikson's favourite devices) and now I know what they mean! Mostly!

By the way, who was the character who mysteriously changed sex between GotM and MoI? Don't think I've come across them yet, unless they are the minorest of minor characters.

Now I know what to expect from some of Erikson's characterisation (ludicrously overpowerful ubermen with the power to destroy worlds), Anomander Rake and Quick Ben are notably less tedious this time around. Quick Ben is actually on the verge of becoming interesting. Rake is becoming humorous though ("He's so cool! He's the greatest!" Well yeah, so would you if you had a sword like his).

Still mystified why Erikson didn't put the Quon Tali map from HoC in GotM. Or at the very least didn't put the locations from GotM in the HoC map. Slightly odd.

[Slick Mongoose]

I'm also re-reading GotM, and I'm wondering who exactly is Kruppe's grandmother (just after the "5 black dragons" quote)? Surely it can't be Silanah.

[Xanrn]

There is no Tlan Imass.

Its the Imass who took part in the Ritual of Tellan(the name of their Warren), making them into T'lan Imass. Like the Ay who were included in a false sense of love and obligation by the Imass are now T'lan Ay.

Yes the Bridgeburners ascended on mass, I am not sure how many of the Bridgeburners.

Yes the Crows came for Coltaines soul, who was so powerful it required many Crows.

I would re-read all 5 books but it makes me want Bonehunters so much.

[Nathanael]

The Wickan reincarnation is nothing like Hindu reincarnation. They retain all their old memories, apparently, and all their powers (if they had any). It's basically - oh, crap, I died, but now I get a new young body to inhabit. Only real disadvantage is having to deal with a developing body for a while.

And yeah, that's one of the reasons the supposedly awesome Chain of Dogs left a dry taste in my mouth.

[Durckad]

Well its been fun debating with you. And at least you have good reasons, unlike some who dislike Erikson since he uses apostrophes.

Or Bakker, who loooooves his umlaut

[Rhaco]

Yeah, Martin's done this as well, but when they come back [...] they're not really the same person any more.

I would most definitely argue that it's the same with Erikson's characters.

By the way, who was the character who mysteriously changed sex between GotM and MoI?

Orfantal. The character doesn't appear, or at least isn't named, until very near the end of GOTM. In the UK GOTM, Orfantal is a female night-hunter; in MOI, Korlat's brother.

They retain all their old memories, apparently, and all their powers (if they had any).

'Apparently.' Such a fun word, that.

It's basically - oh, crap, I died, but now I get a new young body to inhabit. Only real disadvantage is having to deal with a developing body for a while.

Dying numerous horrific deaths and remembering them? Maybe that's nothing to someone as strong as you, Nathanael, but to me, well, that might change me, mess me up a little.

Being reborn again and again, with no reprieve, regardless of what trauma you'd already lived through (in Coltaine's case, he just witnessed the slow, tragic death of 5,000 of his own people, most of 7th Army and the Hissari Guard, and tens of thousands of people under his protection, followed by more betrayal and his own crucifixion), because your people need you (as it's only the greatest Wickans who are reborn) doesn't seem like an easy "oh well" way to spend eternity to me.

And yeah, that's one of the reasons the supposedly awesome Chain of Dogs left a dry taste in my mouth.

Oh, I couldn't agree more. That's why I never found the Trail of Tears very moving. I mean, yeah, a third or so of the Cherokee died, including the chief's wife, but Chief Ross himself survived, and if the chief survives what's the big deal? Bunch of whiners.

[Brys]

Coltaine isn't dead?

Okay, DHG officially sucks balls now.

SPOILER: whole series

Coltaine is dead. If you believe in reincarnation, then he's still alive. As I see it, the crows were purely symbolic, and the "reincarnation" of Coltaine is simply a spiritual ritual, that actually whoever is born with what is supposedly his spirit is just another person. Maybe they'll have those strange instances of having a couple of Coltaine's memory, as some people claim to have others memories in this world - it isn't as if he just got back up from the dead and went back to living his life. The same's true of every character in MBotF. Paran never died - he came close, but didn't die. Rhulad died, but revival came to be a torture for him - he hates life equally to death, as he can never be free. Erikson isn't the type of author to force anything upon his reader - he usually leaves it up to you to make up your mind what actually happened. As Coltaine doesn't come back within the series, it can safely be assumed that he died once and for all. As for a couple of others - Whiskeyjack died, didn't come back, Itkovian died, didn't come back, Brukhalian died, didn't come back, Tattersail died, Nightchill died as well as plenty of others - and if you count Silverfox as "Only real disadvantage is having to deal with a developing body for a while.", then clearly being a completely different person is not important. She possessed a few memories from the spirits that inhabited her, but that was about it. Felisin (Sha'ik Reborn) died as well. Duiker is as good as dead, as is Brys. It isn't as if they have they are the same people when they are revived - Erikson's made a point of this, particularly in Midnight Tides with the characters of Harlest and Shurq.

The only character who I think Erikson took the reincarnation too far with was Sormo Enath. But then, how many have we named who come back to life? Maybe 10, and not in a complete form. How many who have died and haven't come back to life? 10,000 at the end of Deadhouse Gates.

[Arakasi]

Ouch, good post Rhaco.

And good post as well Brys.

[Werthead]

I suppose you could argue that Paran didn't die as he didn't pass through Hood's Gate, but on the other hand he was stabbed multiple times and his body did die, only to come back to life and be healed. Also I suppose that it happened really early in his character arc (imagine if Ned Stark had died in his third chapter, that would have been seriously jarring to the reader) and set up his later big character developments.

But I'm of the school that if a character dies, that it is it. There should be a ludicrously pressing need to bring them back and a believable way of doing so. I'm with GRRM on the matter of Gandalf: bringing him back was a serious mistake in the LotR.

BoG or any other BH advance readers, does the "one more death-and-rebirth" promised by Erikson happen in BH? For those not in the know, Erikson has said that only once more will a character die and come back to life (indicating other people have quizzed him on it). Once that's out of the way, a feeling of suspense can safely return to reading the series.

Kalbear, I honest wouldn't worry too much about reading Gardens of the Moon. I never found it a more difficult read than Deadhouse Gates (much the reverse actually) and once you get past the odd opening few chapters the story takes off quite nicely. It is a slightly less-developed prose style than in the later books, but still much better than in most fantasy novels.

[AndyP]

While it's not my favorite of the Malazan books, I have never understood why so many people have trouble with Gardens of the Moon. Yeah, there some stuff the isn't explained right away but I figured that, 'Hey it's a series' and that an explaination will show up later in another book. It's not like I stopped reading ASOIAF just because we don't know what happend a Summerhall. I just started re-reading GOTM just the other day and I was suprised by how much your told outright, that I thought at the time wasn't important.

[Calibandar]

Werthead:

BoG or any other BH advance readers, does the "one more death-and-rebirth" promised by Erikson happen in BH? For those not in the know, Erikson has said that only once more will a character die and come back to life (indicating other people have quizzed him on it)

I'd just like to add that it was this that Erikson said about that "it's the one that all the others have been leading upto". We speculated on the Malazan board that it might be Tiam, or Burn. But then Burn's not dead so she wouldn't be a "resurrection". So who could this be, someone or something so incredily important.

Brys,

I've posted on the Malazan board for four years. I still do, ocassionally. If you just want to look at the Gardens of the Moon forum as it is today and conclude that I'm lying, that there really aren't that many "who's the best fighter" threads, then that's a narrow and IMO insufficiently comprehensive view to hold. I can't link to the old threads anymore because the forum's been transformed two or three times and all the old threads have been lost, but the quantity of "who's the greatest" threads was nothing less than enormous. You'll just have to take my word on it.

[Xanrn]

Uh regarding Duiker you have actually read the end of MoI?

because

Smeg forgotten how do to sodding spoiler tags again.

[Werthead]

Indeed. I didn't want to know who it was, I just wanted to know if it was in BH or later.

[werewolfv2]

Werthead:

I've posted on the Malazan board for four years. I still do, ocassionally. If you just want to look at the Gardens of the Moon forum as it is today and conclude that I'm lying, that there really aren't that many "who's the best fighter" threads,

considering I checked the forum when Brys made the statement and there was only one "vs" thread going at the time...

also, I think you were trying to make that point in regards to Erikson v GRRM...but then there are "vs" threads going on with Martins books also.

(I have enjoyed detailed talks about how to pronounce "Jaime" amongst Martin fans)

but in the end, what does it matter? not one little bit.

[Arakasi]

As someone who has posted a signifigant amount there, I would disagree with Cali's statement. Sure it is debated more there, but that is natural considering the style of his work. Still its not substantially more. From what I can recall they never had tournaments there with people voting on who the best fighter was. Polls yes, but full blown tourneys? No.

[caladanbrood]

At the very beginning of the malazan forum, back in the midst of time, there were a lot of "whos the strongest/best/cleverest" threads, and the theme seems to be re-emerging of late too, but for a number of years they were quite rare, thankfully.

[Durckad]

also, I think you were trying to make that point in regards to Erikson v GRRM

Such a silly comparison. They're both quite different.

[Grim Shady]

I'm also re-reading GotM, and I'm wondering who exactly is Kruppe's grandmother (just after the "5 black dragons" quote)? Surely it can't be Silanah.

I think Kruppe was joking. You're referring to when he does some research into the 5 Dragons of Moon's Spawn after Coll makes his statement? He's glancing through the info and it is long and drawn out and mentions so many individuals and he thinks that there's so many that he'll eventually see his own grandmother's name. Then when that person asks him why he's looking through the book he says something about looking for mention of his grandmother as if to avoid any suspicion or hide what he's really looking for and extends the joke he just had in his own thoughts about his grandmother's name being in that long list.

It's like the saying we have if it seems like everyone was involved in something a person might say, "Oh yeah, I remember those. Everyone and their grandmother seemed to have one."

It was just Kruppe's little joke.