Can't Stand Erikson

[Slick Mongoose]

I think Kruppe was joking. You're referring to when he does some research into the 5 Dragons of Moon's Spawn after Coll makes his statement? He's glancing through the info and it is long and drawn out and mentions so many individuals and he thinks that there's so many that he'll eventually see his own grandmother's name. Then when that person asks him why he's looking through the book he says something about looking for mention of his grandmother as if to avoid any suspicion or hide what he's really looking for and extends the joke he just had in his own thoughts about his grandmother's name being in that long list.

It's like the saying we have if it seems like everyone was involved in something a person might say, "Oh yeah, I remember those. Everyone and their grandmother seemed to have one."

It was just Kruppe's little joke.

Yes, that's the obvious answer. I just thought that there might be more to it. Ah well.

[Grim Shady]

I didn't read this whole thread so maybe this was discussed before but what the hell...

I'm rereading GotM and what I find puzzling is that there only seems to be a few who know Anomander Rake is on Moon's Spawn. There are a couple scenes where someone who is rather powerful or knowledgable is talking to someone about Moon's Spawn and questions who the lord could be and that he's probably a High Mage. And someone else involved in the conversation is like, "It's Anomander Rake, you ninny!"

They also seem rather clueless about Dragnipur.

And yet they keep coming across those who, even though they seem like they would probably be less knowledgable, know full well what Dragnipur can do and panic at the mere mention of it. Like the two Pale mages who surrender rather than face that sword. They knew what the deal was yet most of the Malazans seem to have no fricken clue. I guess he never left any witnesses while fighting them? Or did he refrain from ever setting foot on the battlefield before GotM?

It just seems like some of these rather intelligent characters can't seem to put two and two together. They'll know what Moon's Spawn is, they'll know the Tiste Andii reside there, they'll know who the Knight of Darkness is...and then wonder, "Hmm I wonder who is in charge up there?" Even though there are other mortals who seem to know without a doubt who it is.

Ah well.

It's also interesting that in my first read of GotM I changed my mind about Rake pretty early from, "Ah so he's the devil-type super villain of the story." to "Hey this guy isn't bad afterall!" But in this reread some of the stuff he says and does still strikes me as sinister. For some reason I'm not cheering for him as fast this time.

I still need DG but I'm 75% through MoI. I had ordered the first 3 volumes from the UK but DG never showed for whatever reason but now it's printed here so I'll have to nab it.

[Calibandar]

As someone who has posted a signifigant amount there, I would disagree with Cali's statement

Of course you would Arak

[Arakasi]

What? I'm being honest there. I agree there is more talk about it there, but that has some to do with the nature of the series. But it isn't substantially more.

[Werthead]

Actually, I forgot how good Erikson can be at humour. Just passed the part in GotM where Lorn and Tool are staking out the Jaghut barrow in the Gadrobi Hills. Lorn is taking a walk and bumps straight into Coll, Crokus, Kruppe etc and immediately attacks them. After decimating their numbers, Lorn belatedly realises she didn't need to attack them and wanders off.

(Probably had to be there)

Oh yeah MBF veterens, is the Imass ability to scramble magic around them something that disappeared in later books? I'm sure I don't remember it from MoI or elsewhere.

[Brys]

The Imass don't have the ability to scramble magic, that's due to Lorn's sword, made of otataral, a material that negates magic. If anything's surprising, it's that Tool isn't affected by being so close to otataral, because the Imass rely so heavily on magic (but then, it is elder magic which is pretty much unaffected by minor things like otataral).

[Werthead]

No, Cotillion-as-Sorry notes how Tool's presence is causing his warren to collapse the closer he gets to the Imass, so Cotillion obviously thinks that the Imass is enough to affect his warren by himself. The otataral sword isn't even mentioned. I'm guessing this is one of those things Erikson changed between GotM and the later volumes.

[Brys]

iirc, Tool opposed the ritual of Tellan. That may have resulted in some kind of negative effect on others magic. It could just be that Cotillion's wrong, but I can't remember the passage at the moment, and I'll need to re-read it to work it out.

[Arakasi]

We've been told many times that younger magic has no effect on elder magic. Or basically that its far weaker. So younger warrens not working in Imas surroundings doesn't surprise me. Although I'm not sure how it works with book 3 and what we know from there. Possibly it could be something special with being the First Sword. Interesting question though.

[Rhaco]

Oh yeah MBF veterens, is the Imass ability to scramble magic around them something that disappeared in later books? I'm sure I don't remember it from MoI or elsewhere.

The T'lan Imass dead space concept is not something that was changed for the US GOTM, so I'm guessing it's not something Erikson has changed his mind about.

I don't recall if it's used later in the series. I do recall that a) it has to be created, it's more effective against non-Elder sorcery, and c) Tool's Tellann powers have been twisted, perhaps somewhat uniquely, by his solitude. So if it hasn't been used after GOTM (yet), it's certainly possible to come up with plausible reasons to explain it.

[Attilles]

It's not necessary for anybody to alter the way that they feel about anything to accept that Tool's Elder warren, when expressed, or unvelied, as you like, might inhibit the expression of 'younger' warrens. When dealing with SE, I think it's profitable to consider that he's not going to tell you everthing...some things just happen, and he doesn't want or expect you to follow. They just happen. If you want the reasons for every 'happening' to make sense according to some predetermind set of rules, by all means read something that satisfies those needs for you. SE doesn't do that...and if you don't like surprises, then that's your business and you can focus on things that reinforce your worldview...Harry Turtledove for example, who makes money hand over fist whilst churning out ....whatever it is that he churns out. It's for you to decide what you're interested in and with SE you have to accept a large helping of uncertainty, period. That's the way he likes it

[Werthead]

So you're saying that Erikson can just do what the hell he likes, break his own rules, never explain why things are the way they are, and we should just live with that? Er, no.

There's a big difference between a writer not explaining something at a particular time to create suspense, and simply saying "I'm not telling" and running off laughing.

As it happens, later in GotM someone says something along the lines that the combination of the Jaghut's presence, Tool's Warren and Lorn's Otataral sword is creating a kind of bizarre feedback in that area which, among other things, is preventing Mammot from returning from his scrying of the region. Thus I would attrbiute Cotillion's magical problems to that as well.

[Attilles]

So you're saying that Erikson can just do what the hell he likes, break his own rules, never explain why things are the way they are, and we should just live with that? Er, no.

There's a big difference between a writer not explaining something at a particular time to create suspense, and simply saying "I'm not telling" and running off laughing.

As it happens, later in GotM someone says something along the lines that the combination of the Jaghut's presence, Tool's Warren and Lorn's Otataral sword is creating a kind of bizarre feedback in that area which, among other things, is preventing Mammot from returning from his scrying of the region. Thus I would attrbiute Cotillion's magical problems to that as well.

He said from the beginning that the MBotF is a history, warts and all, meaning (IMO) that the 'truth' you get is not omniscient truth, but perspective truth. When reading GotM or DG, I am reminded of 2nd-year core cultural anthropology where the prof refused to define new terms, demanding that we understand them through the context in which they were used...it was a difficult course, but I understood the concept of 'trope' when it was done. There is very little of the omniscient narrator perspective in the MBotF, which is one of the things that throws people. As far as breaking his own rules, he's not thinking about it the same way you are... what rules? is I believe what he would say...sure, I sometimes think that his lack of concern for internal consistency is a bit much but I'm enchanted enough with the series that I am willing to forgive it and see where he plans on taking us.

BTW, SE running off laughing is an appropriate image IMO. I can see him doing that, literally and figuratively

Also, the Jaghut was still sleeping when the major effects of Tool's 'dead zone' were in place. What 'magical problems' of Cotillion are you referring to?

[Voland]

I didn't read this whole thread so maybe this was discussed before but what the hell...

I'm rereading GotM and what I find puzzling is that there only seems to be a few who know Anomander Rake is on Moon's Spawn. There are a couple scenes where someone who is rather powerful or knowledgable is talking to someone about Moon's Spawn and questions who the lord could be and that he's probably a High Mage. And someone else involved in the conversation is like, "It's Anomander Rake, you ninny!"

They also seem rather clueless about Dragnipur.

And yet they keep coming across those who, even though they seem like they would probably be less knowledgable, know full well what Dragnipur can do and panic at the mere mention of it. Like the two Pale mages who surrender rather than face that sword. They knew what the deal was yet most of the Malazans seem to have no fricken clue. I guess he never left any witnesses while fighting them? Or did he refrain from ever setting foot on the battlefield before GotM?

It just seems like some of these rather intelligent characters can't seem to put two and two together. They'll know what Moon's Spawn is, they'll know the Tiste Andii reside there, they'll know who the Knight of Darkness is...and then wonder, "Hmm I wonder who is in charge up there?" Even though there are other mortals who seem to know without a doubt who it is.

Ah well.

It's also interesting that in my first read of GotM I changed my mind about Rake pretty early from, "Ah so he's the devil-type super villain of the story." to "Hey this guy isn't bad afterall!" But in this reread some of the stuff he says and does still strikes me as sinister. For some reason I'm not cheering for him as fast this time.

I still need DG but I'm 75% through MoI. I had ordered the first 3 volumes from the UK but DG never showed for whatever reason but now it's printed here so I'll have to nab it.

Just read that part about Rake. It does seem like people are more knowledgeable in later novels than in GotM. However, as for the sword and Pale's magicians, I do believe there is a plausible explanation. Most likely Rake met with Pale's wizards when striking the deal with them. I sure the sword would have had the same effect on them as it had on Baruk in his meeting with Rake. Baruk wasn't aware of the sword's history, but could "feel" something of what it did just by beeing in the same room. It's likely that the two Pale wizards who escaped to Darujhistan figured that suicide was preferrable to being killed by Dragnipur.

[Ran]

Folks,

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE MORE THAN YOU HAVE TO.

Seriously. I'm having to say this two, three times a day, now. The 'Reply' button quotes the message you're replying to, but you almost certainly do not need to quote _everything_, so either cut the quote to the salient bit(s) or remove it entirely.

[Werthead]

Also, the Jaghut was still sleeping when the major effects of Tool's 'dead zone' were in place. What 'magical problems' of Cotillion are you referring to?

The lack of internal consistency in the series is the major problem I have with the series. It's minor, mostly (dates not adding up etc), but it's the sort of thing a few more editorial passes could have remedied.

The problem Cotillion was having was, whilst possessing Sorry, he was about to kill Crokus and his party, but his Warren was slowly collapsing the closer he came to the area. In the end, he had to step out of the Warren, recalling how the presence of an Imass could have that effect. Actually, I forgot Cotillion thought that about the Imass (though I mentioned it in a post above go figure), indicating that Cotillion believed that the Imass could deaden magic around them without Otataral and the Jaghut's presence.

The Jaghut was sleeping but tons of Omtose Phellack wards were in place around it, which may have added to the magical weirdness in the area.

Passed the point now where Raest wakes up, emerges from his barrow, and immediately gets into a full barney with five dragons. Am I correct in thinking that these dragons are the Soletaken forms of Anomander Rake and some high-ranking Tiste Andii?

[werewolfv2]

Am I correct in thinking that these dragons are the Soletaken forms of Anomander Rake and some high-ranking Tiste Andii?

no and yes. remember Rake was at the party when the dragons went to work.

[Rhaco]

The four black-and-silver dragons are Soletaken Tiste Andii. Silanah, the red one, is a true dragon. As werewolf says, Rake was not present.

[werewolfv2]

Silanah, the red one, is a true dragon.

eh? I guess I missed that.. oh well thats what re-reads are for

[Werthead]

Nearly finished. Nice end move from Rake on taking out the demon the Adjunct releases into the city. Although I think it's a bit cheese that twice in the book the characters get into tight spots only to have a handy demon-in-a-jar they can release to wreck havoc.

Ah, a better understanding of the Azath having read Midnight Tides! The first time I read the book I was thinking when this house started growing out of the ground. But now it makes sense! Almost!