Malazan

[HokieStone]

Errh, that's more of an over sensitivity on your part then, since I don't think the US is much like Lether at all.

To each their own I guess, but seeing Lether as simply criticism of the US is very narrowminded. I'd actually say it's closer to the UK in some aspects, since the US did not colonise and as far as I know, the UK population is at least, if not more so, in debt than the American one.

Even that is to oversimplify it. The western world as a whole share characteristics with Lether, but no country is exactly like Lether.

I viewed his description of Lether expanding their territory as analogous to the U.S. westward expansion and decimation of Native American culture. Also, I could have sworn there was a scene describing how people were held without charges, i.e. a condemnation of Gitmo. I'm not sure about that - I'd have to go back and look it up. In any case, perhaps you're right, it's more like a criticism of aspects of Western culture in general. It's not the criticism I mind, it's the blunt hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-2X4, ham-handedness of it. At least try to be a little subtle, Erickson...

[koudoulis]

i propose if someone wants to read the books to find somebody who has them and kill him with a sword

[duchess of malfi]

I viewed his description of Lether expanding their territory as analogous to the U.S. westward expansion and decimation of Native American culture. Also, I could have sworn there was a scene describing how people were held without charges, i.e. a condemnation of Gitmo. I'm not sure about that - I'd have to go back and look it up. In any case, perhaps you're right, it's more like a criticism of aspects of Western culture in general. It's not the criticism I mind, it's the blunt hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-2X4, ham-handedness of it. At least try to be a little subtle, Erickson...

The thing that I could not stand about Lether and the whole book was how bloody boring it all was. To the point where I do not know if I will continue with the series past Bonehunters, because I have heard that in the next book (RG) we're back to "humor" with Tehol and Bugg on the rickety rooftops of the most boring city in any world again (God help us all).

Does anyone else have a problem with the lame and flat out dumb sex in these books?

I mean - like the scene where the mercenary captains are meeting to make plans and one woman starts to manually stimulate another woman in the middle of the meeting? Does this strike anyone else as ridiculous and as a complete horny nerdy male teenager sex fantasy?

[Duane Dibley]

Does anyone else have a problem with the lame and flat out dumb sex in these books?

I mean - like the scene where the mercenary captains are meeting to make plans and one woman starts to manually stimulate another woman in the middle of the meeting? Does this strike anyone else as ridiculous and as a complete horny nerdy male teenager sex fantasy?

oh yes I completely forgot about that part... I got so mad when I read it. not that I have a problem with adult content in books, but when some minor character "violates" another minor character with no reason at all, just out of the blue, in the middle of a freakin' meeting. I actually read the paragraph a few times to make sure it's not some trick of my imagination. I mean, what can this piece of crap possibly add to the plot?!

Edit: by minor I meant unimportant, not young.

[Shryke]

Well, they do establish before that incident that the "violater" (one of the crime kingpins of the city they are in, which is actually ruled BY the crime kingpins) has been after Stonny for years. IT's not really out of the blue, it's just ... unexpected.

[Atreides]

Malazan is like Wheel of Time. It can drag out and suffer from repetition, but it has it's share of kickass parts that might or might not redeem the rest of it.

[Shryke]

Many people think that the Mhybe was "whiny". I say, put yourself in her shoes of a 20 year old prematurely aged to a 60 year old, sacrificing her beauty and youth for someone who *doesn't care* - then see how chipper you are.

Agreed. People bitch way too much about her. She's actually not in many scenes in that book. And her character development was spot on imo. A 20 year old in the body of a 60 year old is not gonna be a happy camper.

Also, yes, I highly agree that many of the "romance" scenes were juvenile at best (Paran and Tattersail's hooking up = neverending looove).

Funnily enough, in MOI, Paran thinks about it and comments how he never really knew Tattersail in the first place. He thinks of their relationship as a short lived infatuation.

[Duane Dibley]

Many people think that the Mhybe was "whiny". I say, put yourself in her shoes of a 20 year old prematurely aged to a 60 year old, sacrificing her beauty and youth for someone who *doesn't care* - then see how chipper you are.

Yeah, i'd probably get whiny too in this situation, but this doesn't change the fact that the Mhybe is the most annoying and boring character (at least in the first 3 books which i read). IMO, she's just terribly written. Catelyn from ASOIAF gets all whiny too when she thinks her whole family died, and she's still a wonderful character and fun to read.

the truth is, I really couldn't care less about the Mhybe and her crappy situation.

[Lyanna Stark]

I viewed his description of Lether expanding their territory as analogous to the U.S. westward expansion and decimation of Native American culture. Also, I could have sworn there was a scene describing how people were held without charges, i.e. a condemnation of Gitmo. I'm not sure about that - I'd have to go back and look it up. In any case, perhaps you're right, it's more like a criticism of aspects of Western culture in general. It's not the criticism I mind, it's the blunt hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-2X4, ham-handedness of it. At least try to be a little subtle, Erickson...

Gitmo is not the only place people are held without charges, you know.

In the end though, the Lether culture still seemed quite superior to the Tiste Edur, for all its flaws.

Re romance in MBotF: If you're reading this for good romance, you will be disappointed. Personally, I am not all that keen on romance novels, hence I don't mind. Although, the clunkiness of the romances means they could just as well have been left out. Since Korlat - Whiskeyjack is the better romance, that says something of the quality of the other ones....

Re magic system not being explained properly: I find this a LOT with especially younger male fantasy readers. If it ain't described in detail, it ain't interesting.

I think Erikson's system of magic is fascinating in a lot of ways because it is not only fireball, fireball, fireball from some Wizard in a pointy hat. It's not very glamorous. It's gritty and often bloody.

Agreed. People bitch way too much about her. She's actually not in many scenes in that book. And her character development was spot on imo. A 20 year old in the body of a 60 year old is not gonna be a happy camper.

Totally agreed. I thought the Mhybe was slow on the first read, but my view on it really changed with the second re-read.

Catelyn from ASOIAF gets all whiny too when she thinks her whole family died, and she's still a wonderful character and fun to read.

Where exactly does Cat whine? She's one of the most un-whiny characters in ASOIAF.

[Duane Dibley]

Where exactly does Cat whine? She's one of the most un-whiny characters in ASOIAF.

come on... all she thinks about in her ASOS chapters is "my childern died, my husband died, Robb is all I have left".

100% grief and whining. and still, it's a great read because Martin makes me care about her.

[L'Sana]

Re magic system not being explained properly: I find this a LOT with especially younger male fantasy readers. If it ain't described in detail, it ain't interesting.

I think Erikson's system of magic is fascinating in a lot of ways because it is not only fireball, fireball, fireball from some Wizard in a pointy hat. It's not very glamorous. It's gritty and often bloody.

I agree with the principle in general, but not in Erikson's case in particular.

In ASOIAF, the magic "system" is not described in detail. In fact, I get the feeling that there is no "system," just magic. Just strange and wondrous things happening that are as mysterious to the characters as they are to us. It's my favorite use of magic since Tolkien.

In WoT, we know exactly how channeling works. That's nice in a way, and it is a relatively good system, but on the other hand, it makes "magic" seem too pedestrian, about as exciting as doing the laundry. Rather than a sense of wonder, I get a sense of following a recipe: "Take five threads of fire, weave together with three threads of air, mix together with a thread of spirit to give it shape, and voila, you have your very own fireball! Tune in next week, when will be making those horse-shaped rapids seen in the Fellowship of the Ring."

With what I read of Erikson, the worst of both worlds seemed to be in play. I had no clue how the system was supposed to work, but I got the feeling that there was a system: mages acted like they were following recipes, making the summoning of god-like power fairly commonplace and not interesting, but on the other hand, I have no idea what those recipes are. It made the magic both boring and confusing.

Where exactly does Cat whine? She's one of the most un-whiny characters in ASOIAF.

She never whines aloud to the other characters, but she is pretty unhappy (justifiably) in her own mind. I don't think of her as whiny, but I could see how some one else might interpret her interior monologue that way.

Still, I think there are enough threads on this board bashing/defending Cat that we don't need to make this another one.

[Ran]

A much too small image of one of Michael Komark's pieces for the limited edition of Gardens of the Moon has been put online by Bill over at Subterranean Press, the publisher....

*drool*

[Gormenghast]

Hmm, I was expecting something more.

Komark is good delivering some evocative scenery and that image is a bit too focused. The characters cover the scene too much and I don't think that "staring at something off the page" works so well.

[Cold Iron]

The value of Malazan is two-fold:

1) It has surface awesomeness - big battles, powerful characters, fun magic etc.

2) It has intellectual depth. I'm not saying it's Proust, but it has a lot of great insights into human history and development.

It's not perfect, but I haven't read better fantasy.

[Cold Iron]

A much too small image of one of Michael Komark's pieces for the limited edition of Gardens of the Moon has been put online by Bill over at Subterranean Press, the publisher....

*drool*

I thought Paran was like 15 in that scene, not 8

[Ran]

He was 12, and still had to stand on tiptoes to look over the merlons at Mock's Hold.

[Cold Iron]

He was 12, and still had to stand on tiptoes to look over the merlons at Mock's Hold.

Ah, well he still looks a bit young in the face for 12. And they could have made both him and the merlons taller in comparison to whiskeyjack. I like it tho. Would love to see it bigger.

[Ser Paladin]

I'm about 100 pages into Bonehunters, and this is the first Malazan book that has hooked me from the start. The others took a while to get where they were going, then everything blew up in the last 100 pages. A bit much, but mostly enjoyable. Except Midnight Tides, which was a slog start to finish.

Anyway, I have to opine in response to a couple of the comments upthread.

First, the magic "system" is pretty straightforward, once you realize it's all pouring in from one (or more) of the warrens or holds. A mage's power is based on how much of the warren he can tap, and how many warrens he can tap. Light, Dark, Shadow. Life, Death. Elements. The warrens, to me, feel much like an overcomplicated Magic: the Gathering system, where the Warrens are the Lands.

Next, the bloodshed. I think the structure of each book is reflected in the structure of the whole series. In each book, Erikson spends 600 pages getting the pieces to the scene of the climax, then 100 pages of sorting it out. In the series, we have 8 or 9 books of the characters gettting powered up, ascending, or getting killed off. The last few standing will have to deal with the Crippled God (or his leiutenants/successors) in the finale. Or so I think.

[pat5150]

Hey there!

Just wanted to let you know that I have five copies of the reissue of Erikson's Gardens of the Moon up for grabs on the blog. It sports the new cover art, plus a new foreword by SE.

Check out the blog for the details!

Patrick

[Zap]

When I first read Gardens of the Moon I loved it. To me it was something fresh, something different from the fantasy that I'd read (Tolkien, Le Guin, Nix), mainly in that it told a story with very ambiguous characters. I've read all the books up to The Bonehunters (included), but now that I think about it, I can't say that I've become attached to any of the characters. Yeah, I think Anomander Rake is one of the most kick ass characters ever in fantasy, I like many of the Bridgeburners and Trull Sengar and Onrack and some other characters, but I don't really care what happens to them. It's very different to my experience with A Song of Ice and Fire, reading which has made me close to Eddard, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Jaime, etc. I have to say that I agree with whoever here said that Erikson's characterization is weak. Another problem of the series is that it drags on. Sometimes during The Bonehunters I wanted to just stop reading or skip to the ending. Erikson often goes into unnecessarily long descriptions (I love Tolkien's descriptions, maybe I just don't like Erikson's) or philosophical passages. And there are other problems as well. There are too many powerful characters and because of this Erikson's books are a lot like an RPG. As I was reading them I thought more and more of Baldur's Gate, the only computer RPG I've played, and I don't like this. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the Malazan Book of the Fallen is not as good as Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, for instance. By any means, if you're interested in epic fantasy, give Erikson's series a try. It has some great parts such as Coltaine's Chain of Dogs or the Ceda's duel with Hannan Mosag, but if you don't like the series even after the third book, don't read the rest.