Malazan

[Shryke]

2 pages of young and naive. 298 pages of more or less the same level of bitterness. It's not the change from page 2 to page 3 I have a problem with, it's her staying exactly the same for the middle 96 percent of the story. Her growth, for good or bad, felt stalled. You could have switched her actions and even thoughts on page 100 with page 600 and not noticed the difference.

The "can't bring herself to reach out to others" is part of what I had a problem with. The slight softening torwards Heboric was too little, too late. You were a crackwhore for a few weeks. Get over it, and quit trying to knife the guy who keeps saving your life.

Anyhow, I felt she was a poorly presented character, in addition to not being likeable. I certainly understand differences of opinion, but attempting to dismiss differences of opinion based on gender lines (which several people did in this thread) is insipid.

So, what's your complaint exactly?

It was longer then a few weeks, it was many months at the least. She also used to be a Noblewomen, the pampered youngest daughter of a very well off family. That's a long way to fall.

Your "You were a crackwhore for a few weeks. Get over it, and quit trying to knife the guy who keeps saving your life." is just stupid too.

Characters don't have to be likable to be good characters. Your not supposed to like her, she's a complete bitch. But she is well drawn.

[Sloanzilla]

My complaint, for the 12335th time, is that she doesn't change for most of the book. Interesting characters actually change as the plot goes along. She changes on like page 6 once, and then pretty much stays the same for the rest of the book.

Look at the Brienne and Jaime plotline. Jaime's a jerk. Then he's slightly less of a jerk. Then he's almost as much of a jerk as he started. Then he's even less a jerk. The reader gets something as the plot moves forward.

An interesting character, in my opinion, would have involved her making overtures toward not being a jerk as the plot went on, regressing and then moving forward. Maybe have her warm up to mage guy, and then he dies so she retreats back to where she started, or something. An ongoing internal struggle that doesn't change isn't rewarding.

The crackwhore thing was obviously meant as a joke, but trying to stab the guy who keeps saving your life IS stupid.

[Shryke]

Characters don't have to be in a constant state of flux. Books contain all sorts of major characters who don't change all that much over the course of the book(s). Off the top of my head Ned, Robb, Sansa (who takes ages to grow out of her little girl fantasies), LittleFinger, etc. Jus because she doesn't make any staggering major changes after turning into a bitter angry young women doesn't make her a bad character.

[Sloanzilla]

Robb was a very one dimensional character, sure, but the interesting thing about Ned was the struggle of what was sort of a one dimensional character trying to survive in a far more complicated world. Ned on page 10 probably wouldn't have tried to bribe Janos Slynt, IMO. Ned on page 400 thought it might have to be the best way to get things done.

I didn't really think Cercei was an effective POV character in AFFC either because there wasn't really much of an emotional journey other than a downward spiral into insanity that already started low.

Sansa's character growth was fairly subtle, though I do feel the reader is given slight rewards of her character changing continually. The way we see Joffrey through her eyes on any given chapter, for example, is superbly done.

[Gabriele]

@Shrike: yes, as you say. Either way there is a trend.

@Gabriele: She is neither vengeful nor emo, actually

Well, lashing out at people for 400 pages is emo, in my books. But I've been accused of acting like a man more than once because I'm such a damn realist. Live sucks, get over it.

It's a question of taste. I can imagine that some readers find her reaction appropriate, or at least excusable.

Edited for spelling. Who let the typo demon in?

[Sloanzilla]

Look at Toc the Younger. Dude was a giant lizard's playtoy for months, and he still didn't take it out on everyone around him.

[beniowa]

Look at Toc the Younger. Dude was a giant lizard's playtoy for months, and he still didn't take it out on everyone around him.

Well, it probably helps that he was actually reborn while Felisin just pretended to be.

[Errant Bard]

Well, lashing out at people for 400 pages is emo, in my books. But I've been accused of acting like a man more than once because I'm such a damn realist. Live sucks, get over it.

Read the book first, I think you might revise your judgement. She not all "oh god life suck I'm gonna cut my wrist and curl up and die", but more like "Stop fucking judging me, I'll do anything to survive and forget so get out of my way, asshole, you're not helping."

I must add that like Sloanzilla, I never actually liked how she was written. I liked the character itself, for its originality, in that she is almost unique in fantasy to go from naive and good to really dislikable bitch and stay like that, willingly, but I would have wanted her to be written by someone more skilled than Erikson, who would have brought her emotions and her changes more to the front. I hold great hopes that Martin's Arya will go down the same route, because he has the skills, and literature lacks real hardened heroes, heck even Sandor cried in the end (and by hardened I mean hardened and dislikable, not cool and badass).

[pat5150]

On a totally different subject, I just posted the cover art for Toll the Hounds on the blog.

Patrick

[Jerol]

You want emo? You want Malazan EMO? Try six hundred pages of the damn Mhybe, the biggest whiner on Wu in the last 100,000 years.

[Werthead]

On a totally different subject, I just posted the cover art for Toll the Hounds on the blog.

Patrick

There is much potential for a LOLCats caption on this cover.

"I AM TEH DOG OF GREEN. FEAR MY TOLLING!"

[Gabriele]

You want emo? You want Malazan EMO? Try six hundred pages of the damn Mhybe, the biggest whiner on Wu in the last 100,000 years.

Lol, I don't want emo, that was my point about that girl. And now you tell me her 400 pages lashing out are far surpassed by 600 pages of Mhybe whining.

Do the books have any characters I'd like to read about? Not heroes, but characters like, fe. Jaime or Jon, or even Dani.

[Shryke]

The complaining about the Mhybe is always exagerated. She doesn't actually appear THAT much in MOI.

[williamjm]

There is much potential for a LOLCats caption on this cover.

"I AM TEH DOG OF GREEN. FEAR MY TOLLING!"

Or posssibly "I AM LOOKING FOR TEH OTHER HOUNDS. I NEEDS TO TOLL WITH THEM"

On another note, looking at the Altered Carbon cover in the post below, do you think the cover artist was secretly auditioning for the cover of the Blade Runner DVD release?

[VarysTheSpider]

Do the books have any characters I'd like to read about? Not heroes, but characters like, fe. Jaime or Jon, or even Dani.

I think you're best shot is a guy who goes by the name of Karsa. But you should know that if strong characters are really important to you, you may be disappointed in Malazan. It's certainly not Erikson's strong suit, but he's not as inept at it as some authors who for the mods benefit will remain nameless.

Incidentally, two weeks I picked up The Bonehunters over three years after finishing Midnight Tides. I'm going to hold off posting extended remarks about it now, but I'm half way through and can't escape the feeling that I've read all of this before. Could it be that the master of imagination has ran out of ideas?

[Gabriele]

I think you're best shot is a guy who goes by the name of Karsa. But you should know that if strong characters are really important to you, you may be disappointed in Malazan. It's certainly not Erikson's strong suit, but he's not as inept at it as some authors who for the mods benefit will remain nameless.

I can think of a few.

So maybe I'll give it a shot. It would be easier if I could browse the first 2-3 books (and by that I mean sitting down with a coffee and reading several chapters out of order) but much as I love Amazon.de that gets me tons of English books from the US and UK, it's not a bookstore, and the bookstores in Germany don't have so many English books (except King, Nora Roberts, and maybe a Tairy or two - I remember to have seen one). Thus sites like this and some review blogs help me a lot to decide whether to buy a book.

Incidentally, two weeks I picked up The Bonehunters over three years after finishing Midnight Tides. I'm going to hold off posting extended remarks about it now, but I'm half way through and can't escape the feeling that I've read all of this before. Could it be that the master of imagination has ran out of ideas?

I don't like to stop series after book 3 or 4, but it would not the first.

[Malaclypse III]

The series are pretty good, considering this is within the 'fantasy' genre. (Not as good as SoT, of course, but that's not fantasy. )

I'd probably pick this series above any other multi-volume fantasy- series any day. Erikson has a fairly complex world building and story developement, and the first book is pretty hard to get into, since you're not even getting a partial explanation of the magic-system until book 3. Which is why it pays off to re-read the first few volumes after vol. 3 or 4. (and do skip the angst sequences the second time, they're not worth the re-read.)

[Gigei]

Question, I am in the middle of MoI and I was startled when

SPOILER: Rake and Silanah

Rake said he "felt the need for Silanah's comfort." Is this some euphemism for sex? I recall that Silanah was in GotM but Rake adresses her as "dear friend." So um I thought they were just friends?

[Guy Kilmore]

I enjoyed the series and figured I would just throw that out there for what it is worth. I like the description that it is a comic book, that is what it feels like. I have enjoyed the overall series for the most part and I enjoy the fact that when I re-read the series, I hit something new each time.

I agree that Fesilin is a well fleshed out character and I found her arch, for lack of a better word, just about perfect. I will say that I have found her to be one of the most believable teenage characters in Fantasy. I worked with abused children and what they go through, how they act, is remarkably similar to how Fesilin does. Once she is traumatized she is never in a stable enviornment, never given a safe momment, from her perspective, to reach out. Children are survivors and are very reactive to their enviornments, Fesilin fits this perfectly. The end result of her arch, I felt was tragic and very symbolic.

Just my 2 cents

[Sloanzilla]

My least favorite character in book three, and I know I'm in the minority here, was the paladin guy who walked around saying "I AM SHIELD ANVIL!"

The base idea of a still loyal paladin-type of a fallen god is kind of cool, but I never really got the plotline.

Halfway through the book, he cuts that corrupt priest guys hands off. Something really strange happens for about four or five pages and, as best I can tell, he felt really sorry for a bunch of ghosts. Those ghosts then are somehow part of Mr. Shield Anvil, but we never really find out where they wind up. We kind of know that he's basically sponging up their suffering because everyone sort of feels sorry for him.

Then the final battle starts. The bad guy undead army faces off against the good guy undead army. But Mr. Shield Anvil walks up to the good guy undead army and talks to them about their feelings for a half an hour. In the meantime, the bad guy undead army slaughters thousands of nonundead good guys. Why couldn't he have waited another 35 minutes to feel their pain?