Arthur Dayne on the Trident

[arek]

Im just wondering If Robert came face to face with Dayne on the Trident instead of Rhaegar 1st

would Dayne have killed him or mortally wounded him so Rhaegar could finish him off?

I say Dayne would have beheaded Robert

What you think?

[Aerys]

yea i think Dayne would have been quite a warrior on the field. Even his presence would have had a positive effect. But Rhaeger obviously thought that he would have been better protecting Lyanna and baby Jon.

Of course, this raises the posibiltiy of a What if? scenario so the whole outcome before and after would be different.

[Daeric]

No I don't think it would have made that much of a difference.

Most of the major events that ment that Rhaegar lost couldn't have being pervented by a single man, espically Lyn Corbray's charge that broke the Dornish flank

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

However Dayne may have been able a raly the Donish men

[Erik of Hazelfield]

If Dayne had fought Robert in single combat instead of Rhaegar then he might have made a difference by killing him. Robert was a fearsome opponent but Dayne is described as possibly the best swordsman ever, so he would have been the favourite in such a fight.

I'm not sure however about the custom of single combat. You don't just send forth your best fighters, do you? From a stategic perspective it wouldn't make sense for Robert to fight Arthur Dayne, because even if he was the best of the kingsguard there were little to gain and much to lose. If Dayne died nothing special would happen, but if Robert died the whole rebellion would suffer greatly.

[Jaime Martell]

I've said this before- Robert was acting like he was on Crystal MEth- NOTHING was going to stop him, he would've bulldozed through Dayne, or atlease escaped to kill Rhaegar

[Defender of the Rock]

I think it wouldhave been a pretty even fight, but roberts determination plus strength and youth on his side would have seen him through against dayne, but would have songs written about it that would have been sung for a thousand years...

[Daeric]

However Dayne may have been able a raly the Donish men

I doubt it, they had just seen their prince cut down, had a disatrous charge wreak havoc on them, and were basically running for their lives, they would have being more likely to stab Dayne then rally to him to face an enemy with their blood up and who can taste the scent of victory.

[Aerys]

Even if Dayne didn't kill Robert, Dayne might have taken down some other influential people before dieing by Robert's hand. He could have injured or slowed Robert down enough for Rhaegar to then kill Robert and swing the tide of the battle.

[Mezeh]

Yes I think that the phrase “woe to Usurper if we was there†said at the Tower of Joy was true. Three even the best fighters make little difference but three missing Kingsguard were more then mere fighters they were leaders as well and Rhaegar definitely lacked leaders in his host. He lacked a personal protection as well since at least some of remaining Kingsgurd were forced to lead flanks and not to protect the prince personally. If Dayne and other two were there they could have both prevent Robert Rhaegar duel and by their leadership turn the wave of battle other way.

Yet while Rhaegar obviously sent Dayne and other two away himself there was another man who possibly could cause different outcome. I speak here about lord Jon Connington. He was able leader who caused to rebels much troubles until was defeated at the Battle of Bells. Yet unlike Rhaegar Connington already had battle experience against Robert so he could have helped to plan the battle better. So it could be that by exiling him Mad King killed his own son and ultimately himself.

[Ran]

Defender,

Just a quick note:

... strength and youth on his side ...

Arthur Dayne was almost certainly no older than his mid-20's, so age wasn't really going to make a difference here, except maybe that Dayne would have had more experience and better training than Robert (after all, he had some of the greatest knights in the Seven Kingdoms at hand to train with). Robert certainly must have been stronger than Dayne, though, but OTOH Dayne had a magic sword that could slice through steel more readily than usual.

That said, I don't expect Ser Arthur being present would make a difference. I think Rhaegar and Robert sought one another out, and I don't see the Kingsguard getting in the way of that.

[Mezeh]

I don’t think that Robert and Rhaegar sought each other. Robert most probably sought Rhaegar but not the other way. Robert hated Rhaegar very much and sought to kill him personally. It was no less or even more important for him then to win the battle. Rhaegar on the other side had no personal hate for Robert and Robert’s death wouldn’t mean the end of rebellion thought without of Robert to find some agreement would be much easier. Yet even if Rhaegar was interested in Robert’s death there was no motivation for him to do it himself. Dayne could have done the job for him and I doubt that Rhaegar would have objected.

[Ran]

Mezeh,

To quote, "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably."

Robert was, after all, the first party that was wronged in this whole thing (and Lyanna too, if one supposes she was unwilling to be abducted). And Rhaegar was the one who wronged him, whether Lyanna abetted him or not. So if one buys that Rhaegar was otherwise a noble, valiant, and honorable person, I don't think it's difficult to suppose that he purposefully sought out Robert so they could settle it between them in a way that the culture saw as appropriate, and because once he got that over with (supposing he won, of course), it'd be the end of the rebel movement, more or less, as Robert was the charismatic leader, figurehead, and claimant to the throne they were fighting for.

ETA: After thinking about it a little, it probably is too strong if I say I believe that Rhaegar sought out Robert. More accurate is that I think Rhaegar knew Robert was going to seek him out, and made sure that in the course of the battle he would be in the forefront, not in the rear, to make this easier for him; and I think he may even have gone so far as to impress upon the Kingsguard the fact that if Robert found him, they weren't to interfere (save, perhaps, to make sure no one else interfered, either).

[Mezeh]

Ran I agree that Rhaegar knew about Robert. Yet this doesn’t mean that he sought him in the battle. The reason to be in front was very simple – this was necessary to boost the moral of the troops. Medieval battles were planned (if the were) beforehand there was all but impossible to direct troops during the battle itself so there was no need for leader to be in rear. This could be seen as cowardice and Rhaegar could not afford this definitely not after royal troops were already defeated several times. Moreover in all described battles in Westeros we see leaders in the front lines yet many times leaders are surrounded by bodyguards. Rhaegar would not try to avoid Robert yet the war wasn’t their personal affair so there was no necessary for him to deal with Robert personally.

The initial question was if presence of Arthur Dayne could result with completely different outcome. IMO yes his and other people who was on Rhaegar side presence at Trident could result with opposite outcome of the battle.

[Bittersteel+]

I agree with Ran that the presence of Arthur Dayne wouldn't change the course of the battle, and I'll try to find some more reasons for that.

Firstly, I agree that Robert and Raegar kind of kept searching for each other, not only because the psychological twist Ran described above, but also because single combat of the leaders (or a killing) was a rather common thing it the world of ASOIAF. Remember the Redgrass Field: First Daemon fights Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard, then Bloodraven kills Daemon and then Bittelsteel fights Bloodraven.

The same behavour is characteristic for Victarion (against Serry) and Davos Seaworth (seeking out the captain of the galley his crew assaults). And that's exactly the reason for Arthur Dayne to stay away from the single combat of Robert and Raegar. If Raegar wasn't a capable fighter the Kingsguard would certainly not allow him to fight... But as it happens Raegar was a dangerous swordsman and also a noble man, so he surely would command Dayne to stay away...

But even if Arthur (or Raegar) would win against Robert... Would it change anything?

I ceriuosly doubt it. Robert was most certainly not the one and only leader of the army. I suppose all his deeds were revised and a bit embroidered after he became the king as it always happened in the history. At that moment Robert was certainly a charismatic figure on the battlefield, a warlord leading into the battle. But the most important thing is that he wasn't the throne pretender like Daemon and the only moving force (or mastermind) behind the rebel. It's mentioned somewhere in the books that the question "Who is the new king?" was solved after KL was taken. Staying in the middle of the battle, Robert wasn't the main battle commander either. This role had Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Blackfish and Ned Stark, all in one more than enough capable commanders to control the troops and very eager to destroy Targariens, especially Ned who lost his father, brother, sister (though at that moment he certainly hoped to take her back) and some good friends... Also the rebelling troops were more experienced and ercouraged, having won more battles. More than that, Raegar made a strategic mistake when he decided to cross the Trident...

Well, considering all that I wouldn't expect that Robert's death at Dayne's hands could change anything...

[snake]

Well, Ned suggested that the tide of battle brought them together so it doesn't seem like either actively sought out the other.

The way I see it is that they were fighting and such when Robert probably notices Rhaegar close by and then begins to yell for him and Rhaegar obliges.

As for Dayne. I don't think he would have made much difference. He was a great sword but no better than the rest of his brothers and their efforts were eventually futile. And if he had met Robert in the field he would have died. The warrior himself would have lost to Robert that day.

[Mezeh]

Dayne was not just a good sword but one of the best on the realm. We couldn’t say who of them would prevail if he and Robert would meet in the battle but even if Robert will win then the victory most probably wouldn’t be without of any cost. Robert’s battle with Rhaegar was a pretty close thing and Robert was wounded as well. So I doubt that Robert would be able to defeat both Dayne and Rhaegar in the row.

[snake]

Dayne was one of the best but not much better than his sworn brothers. Aerys Seven were all deadly men and personally I think Selmy was the most dangerous of the bunch. And don't forget that Rhaegar was a deadly fighter as well.

And I know it's all speculation when it comes to who would beat who but I still think no one could have stopped Robert on that day.

[The Great Other]

i think they describe robert as being near 6 and a half foot tall.... now remember robert was wicked in shape and wicked strong Now take into account STEEL armour..... Reahgar had some of the best armor in the world...and roberts hammer CRUSHED the hell out of it....this is how strong robert is....and thats why he used a hammer....the crushing of the armor versus a sword...which agaist Steel armor will have a much harder time.... A sowrd doesnt have the weight at ONE point that rober could bring to bear....Dayne would have had to repeatedly hit robert to break down the armor...all robert would need is one Smack and it would be over..just like reahgar....ven with dawn being two handed.....i just don see that happening......with gregor using a sword...imgin what that guy could do with a hamer..i think hammers work better for stronger men..but not so well for weaker....

[saskganesh]

I had a longer post, but I deleted it.

which commander made the decision to attack across a river in a frontal assault? Rhaegar? if that's how the battle went, its certianly brave, but its also either desperate or stupid.

maybe if Dayne could suggest a better battle plan, he would have made a difference. as to his own martial abilties, I'm sure he could have killed many rebels, some of them important, but he was also just as likely to be ganked by a bunch of northern pikemen and swamp archers. war is heck.