Arthur Dayne on the Trident

[eddsmonkey]

I think that Arthur Dayne could have made a difference in the battle of the trident. I believe if he got into a fight with Robert he would have cut him down after a close fight and then when the usurper fell, his men would turn and run. Now i know experienced generals and knights like Ned and Jon Arryn wouldnt have ran, but i keep thinking back to one of Tyrion's chapters during the battle of the black water when someone mentioned that if some of the gold cloaks started running, they would all follow. I'm sure that at least a few of the inexperienced men would see this and run away from the battle thinking it was over, and then more soldiers would follow. If that happened Robert's army would have been seriously weakened and could have been easily defeaten IMO.

[Warmhands]

Remember that Dayne wasnt just a great swordsman, he was a symbol: the Sword in the Morning, renowned throughout Westeros through tale and song. This fame would have affected both armies, perhaps demoralising the rebels while boosting the moral of the loyalist forces. This in itself would have change how the battle would play out, perhaps the Dornish would have held, perhaps one of the rebel fronts would have broken...

Now if it came to Dayne vs Robert, there is no question in my mind that Robert would be left with a big Dawn shaped hole in his chest. The claims that Dayne would have been crushed by Robert certainly take into account Robert's strength and bezerk fury, but Dayne was undoutably strong, remember he notched and almost broke the Smiling Knights sword (you could claim that this was because of a "magic" Dawn, but I doubt Martin would go down the road of an Excalibur or a lightsaber), this coupled with Daynes incredible skill would leave Robert as just another corpse at the Ruby Ford (any idea what it was called before the rubies were lost in it?).

[Andhaira]

Remember that Dayne wasnt just a great swordsman, he was a symbol: the Sword in the Morning, renowned throughout Westeros through tale and song. This fame would have affected both armies, perhaps demoralising the rebels while boosting the moral of the loyalist forces. This in itself would have change how the battle would play out, perhaps the Dornish would have held, perhaps one of the rebel fronts would have broken...

Now if it came to Dayne vs Robert, there is no question in my mind that Robert would be left with a big Dawn shaped hole in his chest. The claims that Dayne would have been crushed by Robert certainly take into account Robert's strength and bezerk fury, but Dayne was undoutably strong, remember he notched and almost broke the Smiling Knights sword (you could claim that this was because of a "magic" Dawn, but I doubt Martin would go down the road of an Excalibur or a lightsaber), this coupled with Daynes incredible skill would leave Robert as just another corpse at the Ruby Ford (any idea what it was called before the rubies were lost in it?).

We have hard evidence of Roberts skill, esp on the trident. Its not that he was just strong and ferocious, the man was skilled. Lets just go by hard evidence instead of simply conjecturing/

Arthur Dynes biggest claim to fame was killing the SK and crushing the KWB.

Robert Baratheon killed Rahegar Targaryen, and crushed the near 400 yr old Targaryen dynasty.

I think Robert wins.

[Ran]

Andhaira,

Ok assuming the Targs have lost both Blackfyre and Darksister, couldn't they get another VS blade from somewhere?

They may not have been interested. In any case, GRRM is quite explicit about Rhaegar not having any Valyrian steel.

As to Ser Arthur Dayne, it's presumptuous to suppose his "main claim to fame" was the way he dealt with the Kingswood Brotherhood. It's what we've heard of, yes, but it was clear that he was already quite famous and well-reputed before this time. Further, we have Ned Stark saying that Ser Arthur was the greatest knight he ever saw, and he's a man who's seen Robert and so on. Obviously, Ned's estimation has more to do than simply skill in arms, but the fact is that there's nothing at all to say that Robert was sure to win over the Sword of the Morning. In fact, given how GRRM goes about it, in general when you have two great fighters, it's a complete toss-up as to who would win. I'd give the edge to Dayne, if it came down to it, due to Dawn -- but it's just that, an edge, not a decision.

[alguien]

Andhaira,

They may not have been interested. In any case, GRRM is quite explicit about Rhaegar not having any Valyrian steel.

As to Ser Arthur Dayne, it's presumptuous to suppose his "main claim to fame" was the way he dealt with the Kingswood Brotherhood. It's what we've heard of, yes, but it was clear that he was already quite famous and well-reputed before this time. Further, we have Ned Stark saying that Ser Arthur was the greatest knight he ever saw, and he's a man who's seen Robert and so on. Obviously, Ned's estimation has more to do than simply skill in arms, but the fact is that there's nothing at all to say that Robert was sure to win over the Sword of the Morning. In fact, given how GRRM goes about it, in general when you have two great fighters, it's a complete toss-up as to who would win. I'd give the edge to Dayne, if it came down to it, due to Dawn -- but it's just that, an edge, not a decision.

Ah Ran! You always know how to call a fight in the perfect GRRM sense. Would that you could be a Westeros bookie...

[Andhaira]

That is true, Martin has stated many factors come into play to determine a duels outcome. And yes Dawn would give Dyne an edge, though not as much so as 'normal' because Robert was not weilding a sword.

I personally would give the edge to Robert especially on the Tridenbt, because there he was on a roll. There is a reason they call him the Demon of the Trident.

Lastly, Eddard calling Dyne the greatest knight has a lot to do with Arthur Dynes values and his behavior. (as Arys Oakheart put it, he had a great heart) Robert OTOH was into drinking and whoring, and did not have a large sense of responsibility...

[Ran]

Andhaira,

Eddard calling Dyne the greatest knight has a lot to do with Arthur Dynes values and his behavior.

I believe I said that.

[Andhaira]

Andhaira,

I believe I said that.

Yes you did Ran However values do not count in a fight (sadly). Just look at the Hound, or the Mountain.

[Ran]

Ned also saw Barristan the Bold, another knight with a similar chivalrous reputation. What makes him different from Ser Arthur, that Ned would call Arthur the greatest knight he ever knew? Well, we know by the time of the war, it's Ser Arthur -- not Ser Barristan -- who's considered the deadliest knight in the Kingsguard.

Ned's taking Ser Arthur's skill into account. It's one thing to acknowledge that part of Ned's esteem is based on Arthur's chivalry and honor. It's quite another to say that that's all he's talking about, as if he's not referring to his martial skill at all (which is difficult to accept, when he immediately segues into discussing the sword he fought with and how he almost killed Ned save for Howland Reed's intervention).

[Warmhands]

Arthur Dynes biggest claim to fame was killing the SK and crushing the KWB.

Robert Baratheon killed Rahegar Targaryen, and crushed the near 400 yr old Targaryen dynasty.

I think Robert wins.

Judging from Jaime's POV Dayne was already quite renowned by the time he finished off the KWB. I think we need a look in the White Book to see the true extent of his exploits.

And Robert killing Rhaegar wasnt that big an achievement... Rhaegar was "capable" according to Barristan. Dayne was the greatest knight whoever lived.

[Andhaira]

And Robert killing Rhaegar wasnt that big an achievement... Rhaegar was "capable" according to Barristan. Dayne was the greatest knight whoever lived.

Symeon Stareyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Florian the Fool, Criston Cole the Kingmaker and Aemon the Dragonknight would disagree. (as would Sansa Stark)

Dyne was considered by many to be the greatest of his time, but certainly not all time. And by greatest knight, as mentioned above in easriler posts, also takes into account Arthurs values, compassion and loyalty. (do note though that Aerys was a madman who killed innocent people and their family. Arthur knows this but chose to do nothing because he had taken a vow. At what point does loyalty and upholding a vow become more important than the lives of innocent people?)

Also Rhaegar was not simply 'capable', he was one of the best warriors of his time.

[Warmhands]

I doubt Robert could beat the whole of the current Kingsguard with his arm tied behind his back (or whatever Jaime uses as a put down), this is probably an exaggeration but the the sheer awe that Daynes name generates is a legacy to his skill. I admit Robert would come out on top in just about any melee, regardless of the participants, but in a one on one fight i think there were probably several people who could have bested him.

BTW does it say who got the jump between Rhaegar and Robert? If it was the whole " calling eachother out" kind of thing this wouldnt matter, but the description given makes it sound like they came across eachother by chance.

[Piper]

Also Rhaegar was not simply 'capable', he was one of the best warriors of his time.

You know who thought that? Viserys. Certainly not Barristan himself:

“A wise man never makes an enemy of a king,†said Dany. “Did you know my brother Rhaegar as well?â€

“It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.â€

Ser Jorah snorted. “Along with a thousand others at some harvest feast. Next you’ll claim you squired for him.â€

“I make no such claim, ser. Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar’s squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions. Young Lord Connington was dear to the prince as well, but his oldest friend was Arthur Dayne.â€

“The Sword of the Morning!†said Dany, delighted. “Viserys used to talk about his wondrous white blade. He said Ser Arthur was the only knight in the realm who was our brother’s peer.â€

Whitebeard bowed his head. “It is not my place to question the words of Prince Viserys.â€

“King,†Dany corrected. “He was a king, though he never reigned. Viserys, the Third of His Name. But what do you mean?†His answer had not been one that she’d expected. “Ser Jorah named Rhaegar the last dragon once. He had to have been a peerless warrior to be called that, surely?â€

“Your Grace,†said Whitebeard, “the Prince of Dragonstone was a most puissant warrior, but . . . â€

“Go on,†she urged. “You may speak freely to me.â€

“As you command.†The old man leaned upon his hardwood staff, his brow furrowed. “A warrior without peer . . . those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles.â€

“Swords win battles,†Ser Jorah said bluntly. “And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one.â€

“He did, ser, but . . . I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.†He glanced at Ser Jorah. “Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm.â€

Rhaegar was good; he was not the best of his time. And even he had Robert so wounded that The Demon of the Trident couldn't continue on to King's Landing. Having Robert face Arthur Dayne, and then face Rhaegar, the aggregate wounds of the two would almost have certainly slain him. Not to mention that when he fought Rhaegar he might have had a demon's strength, but unless he had a similar hatred for Dayne, he might not have been in a beserker's rage.

[Jaak]

Ned's taking Ser Arthur's skill into account. It's one thing to acknowledge that part of Ned's esteem is based on Arthur's chivalry and honor. It's quite another to say that that's all he's talking about, as if he's not referring to his martial skill at all (which is difficult to accept, when he immediately segues into discussing the sword he fought with and how he almost killed Ned save for Howland Reed's intervention).

And Jaime claimed that Arthur could defeat 5 kingsguard with his left hand while taking a piss with his right hand.

[Enguerrand]

We have hard evidence of Roberts skill, esp on the trident. Its not that he was just strong and ferocious, the man was skilled. Lets just go by hard evidence instead of simply conjecturing/

Yeah lets go to the evidence, where have Robert’s skills at arms ever been mentioned? He is a brute that enjoys fighting, but we know he was a mediocre jouster, he uses a hammer in combat not a sword relying strength and endurance over finesse.

Margaery Tyrell gave the queen a coy smile. “But I never knew that King Robert was so accomplished at the joust. Pray tell us, Your Grace, what tourneys did he win? What great knights did he unseat? I know the king should like to hear about his father’s victories.â€

A flush crept up Cersei’s neck. The girl had caught her out. Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth.

There is a reason they call him the Demon of the Trident.

Who calls him that?

Rhaegar was good; he was not the best of his time.

Cersie's recollections:

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father’s finest jousters, the flower of the west.

Ser Loras is—â€

“I know what he is. I won’t have him near my son. You had best remind him of his duties.†Her bath was growing cool.

“He knows his duties, and there’s no better lance—â€

“You were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan, when he was young. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him.

And then of course we have Harrenhal where Rhaegar is victorious in the largest tourney in human memory. Rhaegar is clearly one of the most skilled knights of his time.

But even Cersei consider Arthur Dayne the paramount warrior.

[Mister Manticore]

Who calls him that?

Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.

[Enguerrand]

ah thanks, didn't recall that one.

[Poobah]

I agree with the posters who say that Robert was an indifferent warrior. As for Eddard... he is a biased wittiness, he remembers an idealised version of Robert, his great childhood friend, who he hasn't seen in years. He won his single combat against Rhaegar because of his anger "ours is the fury" and brute strength rather than skill.

Bobby B. had no such hatred for Dayne. He was up on adrenaline and so on, but Dayne is described as peerless multiple times, and Dawn is, in essence a magic sword. At the very least the equal of Valyrian Steel. Robert would have been toast, had he faced Dayne.

Would Dayne have made a difference by his presence on the battlefield though? Certainly if he had found himself in combat with Robert, whom I think he would have killed, he would have shattered the rebellion there and then by killing its charismatic leader. Ned would have had to pull back to the neck and hold at Moat Cailin and Jon Arryn to the Bloody Gate. The Tullys could have held Riverrun for a while too, but in essence it would have been over. I feel that following this Rhaegar would have had to preform a coup to sieze power from the obviously psychopathic Aerys and then pardoned the rebels to hold the realm together. Otherwise Aerys would have demanded their slaughter and a huge amount of slaughter would've taken place trying to assault some pretty impregnable places, with the only end in sight being through treachery (house Bolton cough cough).

Had Dayne not met Robert, I'm not so sure... he is certainly a charismatic figure and would have had an effect on the morale of the army, but it would depend where he was deployed. I think that the only other place where he may have had a dramatic effect would be by being with the Dornish. His presence in addition to Prince Lewyn may have been enough to hold them together.

However, it is ultimately Rhaegar's death which finishes the battle, and unless that could have been prevented I don't see any difference in the outcome.

-Poobs

[Ran]

GRRM's quite clear that Robert was a fierce and deadly fighter. He was an indifferent jouster, but this is almost meaningless -- it's a particular skill set quite different from swinging a sword or a hammer (the only real crossover here is the question of horsemanship; Robert was probably not the greatest horseman in Westeros). Robert was powerful, relentless, and obviously quite good -- he defeated famous knights like Silveraxe and Richard Longmouth, and obviously he killed Rhaegar.

Robert was a great warrior, no doubt about it.

[VorianGR]

GRRM's quite clear that Robert was a fierce and deadly fighter. He was an indifferent jouster, but this is almost meaningless -- it's a particular skill set quite different from swinging a sword or a hammer (the only real crossover here is the question of horsemanship; Robert was probably not the greatest horseman in Westeros). Robert was powerful, relentless, and obviously quite good -- he defeated famous knights like Silveraxe and Richard Longmouth, and obviously he killed Rhaegar.

Robert was a great warrior, no doubt about it.

Exactly jousting was in fact a sport as different from actual battle as paintball is from live ammo.

In jousting you face an enemy in a straight line and try to unhorse him or take points. In combat you won't stay on a straight line, in fact you won't be able to since your horse will be too excited/frightened, men will be everywhere etc.

In jousting you are dishonored if you kill the opponent's horse. In battle killing the opponents horse is the smartest thing to do.

Robert was said to love battle and has defeated many knights in actual battle as Ran mentions.