Arthur Dayne on the Trident

[Piper]

Hmm. I'm trying to sort out what we get of Rhaegar is of his jousting, and what of it is ability in real combat. Consider another of Barristan's recollections to Dany in ASOS:

When the old man came, she was curled up inside her hrakkar pelt, whose musty smell still reminded her of Drogo. “I cannot sleep when men are dying for me, Whitebeard, “ she said. “Tell me more of my brother Rhaegar, if you would. I liked the tale you told me on the ship, of how he decided that he must be a warrior.â€

“Your Grace is kind to say so.â€

“Viserys said that our brother won many tourneys.â€

Arstan bowed his white head respectfully. “It is not meet for me to deny His Grace’s words . . . â€

“But?†said Dany sharply. “Tell me. I command it.â€

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.â€

He goes back in forth between jousting and real combat (as when he compares Rhaegar to Robert, who was never one for jousting but was a formidable warrior in real battle).

What I'm wondering is if Rhaegar ever had any actual combat experience before the Trident. Being taught by Willem Darry is one thing, but did he ever have a chance at true battle? We hear no mention of him in Jaime's recollection of rounding up the Kingswood Brotherhood. It could be his only reputation as a warrior comes from his practice, his jousting, and his effort against Robert.

[Enguerrand]

That Robert was a fearsome opponent is clear, but my impression is it´s because of the same reasons Gregor Clegane or Great-Jon Umber are.(though the Mountain is a good jouster as well.)

And simply dismissing the joust as sport doesn’t work, The westerosi themselves judges martial skill by it, maybe because it is the most fair way to measure it.

A peasant can kill the greatest knight on the battlefield. The starting conditions are never equal. On the tourney ground, randomness and bad luck matters considerable less.

To my knowledge, no one hold Robert as a yardstick for martial excellence. In the series that honor goes to men like Barristan and foremost Arthur Dayne.

[Ran]

Ned holds Robert as a yardstick. Not the only yardstick, but a yardstick, I'd say. He slew Myles Mooton and Lord Fell in single combat, captured Silveraxe, might have killed young Lord Connington, killed Rhaegar, etc. I think, yes, that a lot of Robert's repute rested on his strength, ferocity, and courage . . . but, well, that's most of the assets any knight can bring to the table. If he can defeat other men famed for their skill in arms, he's obviously a formidable opponent.

I agree, OTOH, that the joust shouldn't be dismissed as merely sport. As Jaime notes, it says a lot about a knight's ability as a horseman -- and that's what knights are, horsemen. If you look at how Ser Loras handled his horse at the Bitterbridge melee, you can see how being a skilled horseman can be a real advantage in open battle. And the lance is the most devastating weapon a knight can use, able to punch through armor in a single blow where other weapons tend to take much more effort. In the opening charge, skill with a lance is paramount, and then in the rest of the fight, a knight's horsemanship can make the difference between living and dying really.

[Ninepenny King]

Im just wondering If Robert came face to face with Dayne on the Trident instead of Rhaegar 1st

would Dayne have killed him or mortally wounded him so Rhaegar could finish him off?

I say Dayne would have beheaded Robert

What you think?

remeber its a battle not a 1v1 remember lady forlorn did for Prince luwin

[Ninepenny King]

If you look at how Ser Loras handled his horse at the Bitterbridge melee, you can see how being a skilled horseman can be a real advantage in open battle. And the lance is the most devastating weapon a knight can use, able to punch through armor in a single blow where other weapons tend to take much more effort. In the opening charge, skill with a lance is paramount, and then in the rest of the fight, a knight's horsemanship can make the difference between living and dying really.

and we all know how well Renly enjoyed Loras' skill with um... the lance

[Whatever]

and we all know how well Renly enjoyed Loras' skill with um... the lance

I always though Renly was the one with the lance

Loras was the shield

[Corvinus85]

I think at least one other person said it: Dayne would have been a greater help in advising Rhaegar, than in fighting in his stead against Robert.

From my understanding it was Rhaegar who forced the crossing on the Trident, and the battle was lost when he died. I find this odd, knowing Robert's temper, but thinking about it, you can quickly realize that Robert had people whom he heavily trusted like Ned and Jon Arryn, people who probably urged Robert from refraining in just launching in a reckless assault. Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend, and Jon Connigton too, and either one might have done the same for Rhaegar what Ned and Jon Arryn did for Robert. And with superior numbers, Rhaegar would have had a better chance of winning had he let the rebels try to cross the Trident.

[John (Snow) Doe]

I've always gotten the feeling that Rhaegar knew he was going to die - maybe he didn't know precisely which battle, or who would slay him, but his general melancholy, reluctant embrace of battle, and conversely, his well-roundedness and love for other things in life (romance, family, music, etc) give me this feeling. We know that Rhaegar distilled from a book that he was meant to be a warrior - if the book was a prophecy, it's feasible that Rhaegar also knew he was a doomed warrior. His dragon dreams could have given him added foresight unto his fate.

The Robert-Rhaegar fight reminds me a lot of Achilles-Hector: you have a man made solely for battle beating a man who, while a notable warrior, is better-known for being centered, level-headed, and having proper values. Robert and Rhaegar were nemeses in every sense of the word - not just belligerents in combat, but opposites in life. Whereas Robert was occupied solely with war and womanizing and drinking, Rhaegar embraced and excelled at many pursuits. Like Hector, I'd say Rhaegar knew deep down that he could never live the sort of life he wanted.

So no, I don't think Dayne would've made a difference because I think Rhaegar was destined to die. As a advocate of the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon hypothesis, I'd suggest that Rhaegar, knowing his fate was doomed, left behind his best knights to guard his offspring, which he valued more than his own life.

If the question is purely "who would win in a fight - Robert or Dayne", I'd give the edge to Robert on the basis that Dayne, like Rhaegar, was a similarly well-rounded person who enjoyed pursuits besides warfare - the ideal knight gained renown in arenas outside of battle. Robert was a maelstrom of fury and emotion - an Achilles or better yet, a Pyrrus.

[Rheagar Prime]

I do feel he would have made a differnce and its for one word morale. Morale wins battles and the reason rhaegar's troops lost is because after his death the morale was shattered. If dayne was there and saw his best friend got slayed woah be to an injuried robert and i see the rest of the troops following that lead, or it could be the other way round and dayne beat robert if they meet first.

Still rhaegar lost because it just wasn't his day the battle changed when bob got that good swing in, same thing that happened with the mountain and oberyn. It just shows anything can happen in a battle and robert just won due to that.

[Artos Stark]

If Dayne had been on the Trident then Robert would have died that day

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

It could be interesting to try to piece together some kind of timeline before it's revealed. Rhaegar and Lyanna disappear. Are they at the Tower of Joy the entire time? Is Arthur Dayne with them, taking walks to think about defensive encampments while R +'s with L to = J? Brandon rides to King's Landing. Gerold Hightower is there when Rickard and Brandon are killed. Rhaegar comes back to take command of the royal army, sending Hightower and Whent (if Whent wasn't there already) to the TOJ as extra protection for Lyanna? (Why is Hightower taking orders from Rhaegar when he told Jaime that they shouldn't judge Aerys?)

It does look like protecting Lyanna (and their child) was more important to Rhaegar than having Dayne with him at the Trident, which supports a view of Rhaegar as a fatalist.

[12345]

um....Robert has a warhammer, and he is stronger than Dayne. I'm pretty sure most swords and all shields will break after a few good whacks from a strong guy with a warhammer. Even though Arthur had Dawn, it's still really hard to block a hammer with a sword, and Robert could probably smash Dayne's shield with a few blows. It is even implied that it is hard to fight a warhammer wielding guy in the books, when a young swordsman asks Jaime Lannister what is the best strategy to defend against a warhammer.

[Stormcloak]

In Rhaegar's place I think Dayne would've beaten Robert, if Dayne was at the trident he probably wouldn't have been in Rhaegar's place though so anything could've happened.

He might've been at the trident but never close enough to kill Robert like Barristan.

[Artos Stark]

um....Robert has a warhammer, and he is stronger than Dayne. I'm pretty sure most swords and all shields will break after a few good whacks from a strong guy with a warhammer. Even though Arthur had Dawn, it's still really hard to block a hammer with a sword, and Robert could probably smash Dayne's shield with a few blows. It is even implied that it is hard to fight a warhammer wielding guy in the books, when a young swordsman asks Jaime Lannister what is the best strategy to defend against a warhammer.

From what I understand Robert was wounded by Rhegar who isn't half the fighter that Dayne is. Once again if Dayne fought at the Trident than Robert would of been dead as a doornail.

Had Barristan fought Robert instead, Robert would be dead. But of course if either of those guys fought Robert we likely wouldn't have a story.

[Batman]

I dont think there was a force in the ASOIAF world that would have stopped Robert at the Trident. Everything was on the line and if Arthur Dayne stood between him and Rhaegar then he had to go. Barristan said it himself, anyone can be defeated on any given day for a number of reasons. Well Robert was motivated and he crushed those that were there and I think he would have done the same for Dayne.

[Artos Stark]

I dont think there was a force in the ASOIAF world that would have stopped Robert at the Trident. Everything was on the line and if Arthur Dayne stood between him and Rhaegar then he had to go. Barristan said it himself, anyone can be defeated on any given day for a number of reasons. Well Robert was motivated and he crushed those that were there and I think he would have done the same for Dayne.

He didn't crush anyone of that caliber, I just don't see it. From what I remember he was actually injured by Rhaegar, if he was facing a better swordsman he wuld have died that is plain and simple.

Dayne would have cut him down and Barristan as well.

[Trebuchet Penguin]

i think they describe robert as being near 6 and a half foot tall.... now remember robert was wicked in shape and wicked strong Now take into account STEEL armour..... Reahgar had some of the best armor in the world...and roberts hammer CRUSHED the hell out of it....this is how strong robert is....and thats why he used a hammer....the crushing of the armor versus a sword...which agaist Steel armor will have a much harder time.... A sowrd doesnt have the weight at ONE point that rober could bring to bear....Dayne would have had to repeatedly hit robert to break down the armor...all robert would need is one Smack and it would be over..just like reahgar....ven with dawn being two handed.....i just don see that happening......with gregor using a sword...imgin what that guy could do with a hamer..i think hammers work better for stronger men..but not so well for weaker....

OK.... donnt write like thissss..... its very annoyin.....

Robert used a hammer because he preferred to crush his enemies. Plus, a hammer requires more strength that say, a spear. It is feasible for a weak man to use the hammer, provided he has the speed and finesse to wield it effectively.

If a hammer was more effective than a sword, then why did most knights don't wield hammers?

Steel armor is quite hard to crush. Even burly blacksmiths heat steel before shaping it. However, a smack of the hammer in the head would only cause a concussion, and a chest blow would knock him off his seat and the air out of his lungs. Dayne would have turned it by using his sword or shield.

As to Dayne, he would have most likely died under the press of mad, stamping men, or gone the way of the Fireball. I mean a kingsguard does not have a cluster of men protecting his flanks. He is the flank.

In the end, Dayne would have died. If he had not, he would not bend the knee as barristan did. He was a true and loyal friend to Rhaegar. He didn't run. Instead, he honored his memory by staying at ToJ

[Batman]

He didn't crush anyone of that caliber, I just don't see it. From what I remember he was actually injured by Rhaegar, if he was facing a better swordsman he wuld have died that is plain and simple.

Dayne would have cut him down and Barristan as well.

I dont thinks its ever explicitly stated who caused Roberts injuries. Certainly Rhaegar caused some of them (wouldnt be a suspenseful fight otherwise) but it nevers says Robert started the fight fresh as a daisy.

[Lord Leyton]

OK.... donnt write like thissss..... its very annoyin.....

Robert used a hammer because he preferred to crush his enemies. Plus, a hammer requires more strength that say, a spear. It is feasible for a weak man to use the hammer, provided he has the speed and finesse to wield it effectively.

If a hammer was more effective than a sword, then why did most knights don't wield hammers?

Steel armor is quite hard to crush. Even burly blacksmiths heat steel before shaping it. However, a smack of the hammer in the head would only cause a concussion, and a chest blow would knock him off his seat and the air out of his lungs. Dayne would have turned it by using his sword or shield.

As to Dayne, he would have most likely died under the press of mad, stamping men, or gone the way of the Fireball. I mean a kingsguard does not have a cluster of men protecting his flanks. He is the flank.

In the end, Dayne would have died. If he had not, he would not bend the knee as barristan did. He was a true and loyal friend to Rhaegar. He didn't run. Instead, he honored his memory by staying at ToJ

Well actually in real life most knights did wield blunt weapons when full plate was popular since it was simply more effective against armour than swords, however for some reason swords are more popular than blunt weapons in ASOIAF.