Football, Footie, Ball, FOOTBALL!

[cteresa]

I don't often like watching routs but Man U was a joy to watch. Gotta give them props. None of those four goals were a result of an ugly scramble; all were works of art with precision passing and timing.

Portuguese papers were all in love this morning with Cristiano Ronaldo´s goal. Even if I had to LOL at the novelty value of Tevez scoring a header ( louzy defense, that), I see the point, I don´t recall ever seeing a goal like that I think I am going to see it again now.

Funny thing is, everybody including Cristiano Ronaldo himself says he does not have a striker´s required competence with BACK to goal, maybe we are all underestimating him after all. Just hope he does not peak too early this season, there is football in June...

About Derby, sorry for any derby fans, but they totally spoiled my (eventual) league comparison data for this season! Plus, not their fault, but "derby" in football is a derby, not a town or club OK, unfair of me, just that talks of derby me mentally thinks a grudge match between neighbouring teams where anything goes.

PS - Milan are back to their old trick of losing consecutive league games in the San Siro. Fiorentina even did them the favour of losing, but point gap remains the same.

PPS - now we know why Kaká takes penalties, Pirlo missed one. and goodness, Paolo Maldini the goalscorer?!? their attack is in a bad way indeed!

[Paddy]

I would also definitely rate Van der Sar over what I've seen of Casillas.

Maybe it's just something I hate about his technique and his seeming complete unwillingness to ever catch a ball and his stats prove him to be good, but there it is.

I can't think of any argument you could give that Van Der Sar is worse than Casillas.

For starters, Van Der Sar has proved himself at multiple levels of professional football, i.e. behind Man United's great defence of the past two seasons, where he has to keep concentration levels up during matches where he may spend 99% of his time as a complete bystander and behind a shoddy defence of a weak team (Fulham) where he's constantly called upon to pull off great saves.

Of course, I'm just a lousy biased ManU supporter, but there are many keeper's I'd rate and I really wouldn't see him as World #1.

[koudoulis]

Just hope he does not peak too early this season, there is football in June...

....

so he hasnt peaked yet?? what else is there for him to do? i soon expect him to start flying around in a red cape ..

on the keeper thing:

casillas is indeed a good keeper and you can include him in a conversation about the worlds best keepers. but you will have to turn him down eventually.

Buffon is incredible and on some days its simply impossible to beat him . his physical gifts are the best in the world surely and he combines them with a deep understanding of his position on the pitch.

Cech is a world class keeper too but i dont think he makes such s difference. same level with casillas.

Edwin Van der Sar though is the best damn goalkeeper i ve seen in my lifetime. He may not have the same reflexes and agility like 5 years ago but he is the only one that i have ever felt lucky to watch him play. he plays his position like zinedine zidane played his.

also i am of the weird opinion that both victor valdes and ricardo are a joke. sorry but i think ve seen much better keepers playing for middle table teams around europe (sunderland?). i understand that this doesnt always correspond that there will be a good one for every ethnicity but you can seriously do better than ricardo.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Damn, Liverpool won.

[Jon AS]

I don't get the van der Sar love. He is good, but it would never occur to me to rate him as the best in the world. I mean, there is a reason why he spent four years at Fulham.

And what I have seen of him this season made me think he might be past his best; he seemed indecisive when having to deal with high balls and displayed a lack of awareness of his surroundings that often let to him stumbling into his own defenders. I think that in a lesser team he would be found out quite quickly.

While van der Sar has the best back four in the Premier League to support him, Casillas has to compensate for a defense that is apparently beaten easier than most: a statistic released a few months ago showed that he had to make more saves than any other goalkeeper in the league. The fact that he is a much better 'keeper than Valdes is probably the biggest reason why Real are still ahead of Barca (and Villarreal).

Damn, Liverpool won.

As did Newcastle, 4-1! Supporting Tottenham must be almost as much fun as being a Werder fan...

[cteresa]

so he hasnt peaked yet?? what else is there for him to do? i soon expect him to start flying around in a red cape ..

ahem good point. I guess his corners could be better ( though honestly, waste of heading ability to have him take corners). I mean, he does not have to *improve* (well, penalty taking a bit, and maybe all round finishing and maybe more practice as a striker.) just keep this up for just 3 more months, it´s march 30th, just till june 30th... It´s a lot of time, and a lot people kicking him in between... I worry

also i am of the weird opinion that both victor valdes and ricardo are a joke. sorry but i think ve seen much better keepers playing for middle table teams around europe (sunderland?). i understand that this doesnt always correspond that there will be a good one for every ethnicity but you can seriously do better than ricardo.

Gosh, not a weird opinion at all, amen to that. I pointed out Ricardo not as a good goalkeeper ( he got booed by sporting fans regularly. the polemic all around when Scolari completely ignored Vítor Baía. About which there must be secret history of which I got no real hint of) but as a counterargument that some keepers did contribute more to their national sides than Casillas in recent times. I get very worried when I see any stopped ball events close to 30 meters of our goal. Crosses, don´t ask. But I was just using Ricardo as an argument that in a way, sort of, Ricardo not being a good goalkeeper sort of contributed more for Portugal in the last 4ish years of major tournaments than Casillas. Ricardo has many flaws, but I must admit he is good at penalty kicks, he nearly always gets the side right. Even that Zidane penalty kick ( and zidane is one of the best penalty takers I have ever seen) he nearly touched it. And for tournaments, it matters - and to me it matters, defending or trying to defend penalty kicks. Casillas is in a total different league, but he is not that good at penalty kicks. Buffon strangely neither, those french penalty kicks were mostly pathetic. Cech neither. So, don´t know who is best ( but it might be an argument pro van der saar). I was impressed for what I saw of Palop earlier today, but I guess maybe it is just one of those quirks of mine - the scoreline was not flattering at all, but wow, the man had some reactions, incredible. Of what I have seen this year maybe best performance by a keeper this year was Neuer´s 120+ minutes versus Porto - any other candidates?

BTW, does anybody think any major team has a worse set of goalkeepers than Milan? Because Dida and that Kalac, Kalac has some major guilt in their CL elimination IMO. BTW Milan, now 6th on the league, Fiorentina lost to Udinese who is now 5th. Relegation at least is looking impossible, it was looking dodgy in November.

PS - I must whine, i do : I don´t care what stadium it is or how famous Real Madrid, playing a cheesy song when you score a goal is WRONG and tacky. Stop it before anybody starts copying that, PLEASE.

[Ser Sean]

As did Newcastle, 4-1! Supporting Tottenham must be almost as much fun as being a Werder fan...

Dont, sometimes I fucking hate being a Spurs fan!

They really shouldn't be paid this week, seeing as they didn't turn up to work. Pricks!!

[Paddy]

I don't get the van der Sar love. He is good, but it would never occur to me to rate him as the best in the world. I mean, there is a reason why he spent four years at Fulham.

And what I have seen of him this season made me think he might be past his best; he seemed indecisive when having to deal with high balls and displayed a lack of awareness of his surroundings that often let to him stumbling into his own defenders. I think that in a lesser team he would be found out quite quickly.

He spent 4 years at Fulham because they paid well, I believe.

I haven't seen anything of the sort about his performance this season. I can't recall a single goal that I would blame him for. His positioning has been nigh on perfect and his decision-making as good as you could want.

United have far and away the best goals-conceded record in the Premier League this season, and you are right to say that most of this is because they have the best back 4 (and central defensive partnership) in the league this season, but Van der Sar has definitely done his part in it, to my mind.

United have two quality goalkeepers in reserve, Kuszczak and Foster (though Kuszczak is without doubt prone to the odd blunder), yet the selectors obviously have their faith in Van der Sar's performances.

I dont know where you can justify the claim that Van der Sar would be found out quickly at a lesser club. At Fulham he was at a lesser club, and he shone.

I would argue that it can be tougher to be a quality goalkeeper behind a great defence, because its easy to lose your concentration level when almost the entire game is passing you by. Because of that I had great respect for Petr Cech breaking the "consecutive minutes without conceding a goal" record a few seasons ago while playing with Carvalho and Terry at their peak.

I wont claim that Van der Sar is the best in the world right now. I think there's a few keepers out there who are probably better suited to that title. But I cannot buy the claim that he is showing much indecisiveness or lack of awareness or that it's ludicrous to believe that he can be said to be as good as or better than Iker Casillas.

[Jon AS]

I dont know where you can justify the claim that Van der Sar would be found out quickly at a lesser club. At Fulham he was at a lesser club, and he shone.

I meant that he had declined since he was at Fulham and wouldn't produce these kind of results today. I'm not saying he is a terrible goalkeeper, just not the best in the world. Casillas, Buffon or Cech would be my probable candidates for that, van der Sar is the same category as many other goalkeepers all over Europe: very good, but falling short of "world's greatest". But as with many things in football that can be a terribly subjective call to make. I was mostly surprised that several people (and only two of them ManUtd fans ) thought he was so much better than I did.

Dont, sometimes I fucking hate being a Spurs fan!

They really shouldn't be paid this week, seeing as they didn't turn up to work. Pricks!!

I'm not really considering any new allegiance (I really find it difficult to develop one for a club in a foreign league), and at least with Werder I can console myself that it has only been four years (what? where does the time go?) since they won the title...

[The Iceman of the North]

So, with the minor European leagues nearing the end of the season, the football season started here this weekend. No great upsets in the opening round, and Brann is at the top of the table were they belong. (Not sure how long that will last.)

I've seen a few players upset at being substituted over the years, but watching captain Eirik Bakke being dragged off the field was amusing. Apparently he didn't think that a bleeding from a scalp wound as well as an open wound in the leg requiring 7 stitches, was ground enough for substitution.

[Jon AS]

Oh, if we're now supposed to talk about the really important matters in world football: Berti Vogts is in negotiations to take over the national team of Azerbaijan!

[The Iceman of the North]

Great news! (For Armenia...)

[Calibandar]

Loras

Is the Spanish national side doing poorly? No.

Is the Spanish side in fact on a great run under Aragones? Yes.

Do the Spaniards have a lack of strikers? No.

Do the Spaniards have better strikers than Raul? Yes, they have Torres and Villa, excellent strikers in their prime.

Has the Spanish team played with Raul in the past and did it do poorly? Yes.

In short, is there any reason, any reason at all, to have Raul in the side now? No, none at all.

He's had chance after chance and has never been able to lead Spain to anything. They are better off without him.

This is not the same as saying Raul is a worthless player who is responsible for all the failures of Spain on major tournaments in the last 15 years.

On Vd Sar: I honestly don't see what makes little Casillas a better keeper than Vd Sar. Vd Sar has a far better track record, I know he's grabbed many points for various sides, while Casillas looks a bit shaky. Not even in the same class.

Jon

I mean, there is a reason why he spent four years at Fulham.

This is a poor argument. You might as well say there is reason why he now plays at Manchester United. Does that automatically prove he is a superior keeper to the one Arsenal and Liverpool have? Or the fact that he played for Juventus in the years prior? Or that he played in the Champions League and UEFA cup winning Ajax side of the 90's?

On the other hand, as Paddy pointed out Man U has conceded relatively few goals this year and van der Sar has definilty done his part. And he has done his part in previous years as wells. Also Jon, looking at Real Madrid's goals conceded record this year would not lead one to think they must have one hell of a goalkeeper

Of course, vd Sar is Dutch so that may be an issue for you He has a great reputation abroad though, partly because of his performance for Ajax and Man U, partly for his performance in the Dutch national side which has been outstanding.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Screw you, Tottenham. Miserable fucking match.

Also watched the latest Rangers/Celtics match-up. Looked more like a scrum than football. Nobody sent off, though.

[Jon AS]

Right, last post on Dutch goalkeepers (by me at least).

Also Jon, looking at Real Madrid's goals conceded record this year would not lead one to think they must have one hell of a goalkeeper

As I said, he has to work pretty hard to keep the number of goals conceded low enough to keep Real in the title race (frontrunners even), what with their less than stellar defense.

This is a poor argument. You might as well say there is reason why he now plays at Manchester United. Does that automatically prove he is a superior keeper to the one Arsenal and Liverpool have? Or the fact that he played for Juventus in the years prior? Or that he played in the Champions League and UEFA cup winning Ajax side of the 90's?

Granted. But quite a few goalkeepers have won a lot of titles. For example I wouldn't make the claim that Kahn is the world's greatest based on past achievements, he has clearly declined since 2003/2004. Also at Juve van der Sar was displaced by Buffon (whom I'd rate higher) and apparently no big clubs were interested in him (or, as Paddy said, were willing to pay as much as Fulham. Just how much did earn there?).

Of course, vd Sar is Dutch so that may be an issue for you He has a great reputation abroad though, partly because of his performance for Ajax and Man U, partly for his performance in the Dutch national side which has been outstanding.

His nationality is of no concern to me (in fact I usually quite enjoy watching the Dutch team play), as I said, he is a good goalkeeper and has the reputation of being one of the best football players in his particular position (i.e. his passes are unlikely to turn into throw-ins for the other team), but before this thread I'd never encountered the opinion that he was the best in the world.

[The Inquisitor]

Loras

Is the Spanish national side doing poorly? No.

Is the Spanish side in fact on a great run under Aragones? Yes.

Do the Spaniards have a lack of strikers? No.

Do the Spaniards have better strikers than Raul? Yes, they have Torres and Villa, excellent strikers in their prime.

Has the Spanish team played with Raul in the past and did it do poorly? Yes.

In short, is there any reason, any reason at all, to have Raul in the side now? No, none at all.

He's had chance after chance and has never been able to lead Spain to anything. They are better off without him.

This is not the same as saying Raul is a worthless player who is responsible for all the failures of Spain on major tournaments in the last 15 years.

Then, we admit that the whole Raul yeah-nay thing is a subjective thing then, because those yes-no's are highly debatable.

On Vd Sar: I honestly don't see what makes little Casillas a better keeper than Vd Sar. Vd Sar has a far better track record, I know he's grabbed many points for various sides, while Casillas looks a bit shaky. Not even in the same class.

WTF?!?!

How many CL's has Vd Sar won? How many domestic titles? How many times has he been selected as CL/Europe's best goalie?

I respect Vd Sar a lot, and he is a great player. But come one Cali, you know your footie well... saying that VdSar>Casillas is preposterous. And claiming that he is shaky and not in the same league... please. Its like saying that Valerón>Zidane: Valerón was an excellent player, but no one could say that Zizou was better in the same position.

For mercy's sake Cali? About the goals Real Madrid allows?!?! Do you know hor far out our defense plays... and how exposed Madrid's goalie has always been. What is surprising is that Casillas allows so few goals given how exposed he is. Really, he does supernatural things every Sunday.

[cteresa]

ah, Celtic-Rangers, europe´s version of boca-river ( or vice versa), nearly forgot about that in my mental list of "superclássicos" goes straight to top.

Regarding werder and tottenham, my whines are even worse. just deleted it because it depresses me too much, but problem is referees and consistent dodgy decisions and the police evidence being waived away by the court. Everybody knows what phone taps saidbut there is always some technicality of "$%&. calciopoli please here. but as I said, it depresses me to see nothing done and same old same old always the same the penalty kicks awarded for dives outside the area at minute 96 (I am not making this up or exagerating, check last night or atlético´s cup tie against Porto last season).

on the current Mourinho soap opera, fun detail, one of those celeb magazines has pictures of Mourinho boarding a private jet last week, apparently he was flewing over to France (or Milan. and I guess Malpensa is halfway to Turin practically) to meet some inter officials. Or maybe he was just taking the dog over to england so she can visit the homeland or something But pretty consistent details about maybe some announcement soon. On the totally bonkers (IMO) rumor is the conspiracy theory of Arsene Wenger to Barcelona being agreed upon for some time which was the secret reason Wenger really left Henry go almost cheaply. I really really doubt it - Wenger has been ruthless at getting rid of players as they hit a certain age ( or injury threshold) and english football is more demanding physically and in injuries. Just mentioning it for bonkerness appreciation.

[Paddy]

saying that VdSar>Casillas is preposterous.

No, it's not.

You rate Casillas higher, fine, I dont mind.

But to claim that it is preposterous to think that Van der Sar is better is absurd.

Really, he does supernatural things every Sunday.

No, he really doesn't.

[The Man Who]

Just to add my two cents on the goalkeeper debate. Personally, I think while Casillas can work wonders behind a less than solid defence, he isn't the type of goalkeeper that I think make the best goalkeepers. I know it's a bit weird to think of different keeper types but having thought about I think there are several different types. For me Casillas is the best goalkeeper in the world for his style but not the best overall. van der Sar on the other hand is an excellent goalkeeper, not the best of his type I have ever seen, but I would rather have him than Casillas, and that is even without vd Sar's magnificent distribution. His kicks are amazing, especially those ones where it is offside and the defender puts the ball down and vd Sar runs and smacks it and it lands at Rooney's feet. I think I may rate Buffon over vd Sar at this mould. For me a goalkeeper has to dominate his box, especially aerially from crosses and to do that you have to be at least almost as tall as the tallest players out field in order to get that reach advantage. I think Casillas would not enjoy the same success he has in Spain if he played in England.

But still, the best goalkeeper I've seen play is without a doubt Peter Schmeichel, who ruined my career as a footballer by making me want to play in goal during my formative years and not learning things like proper technique and whatnot.

Also I don't think you can judge goalkeepers on what they have won. A goalkeeper can't dominate a match in the same way an outfield player can. By that kind of virtue you could say Nikopolidis is a better international goalkeeper than Casillas.

[Smudge]

I haven't seen enough of Buffon to be able to judge him, but I personally rate Casillas higher than Van Der Sar.

There may be some disagreement about who's the top dog, but Van Der Sar would be 10 years older? That gives Casillas a little bit of time to prove himself...