Theon

[Branfangd]

[quote name='Artas' post='1351779' date='May 12 2008, 12.46']A more apt answer would have been: sorry, my mistake.[/quote]

Why Should he have to apologize ? The only spoiler he revealed was that Theon would take part in the future books which is obvious even to someone like me

[Artas]

Apparently it was a spoiler for the original complainer, however minor.

[Sleipnir]

[quote name='Artas' post='1351873' date='May 12 2008, 08.24']Apparently it was a spoiler for the original complainer, however minor.[/quote]

I don't think he was serious when he said it.

[snake]

I could never undestand why Theon was liked myself. I guess some people have soft spots for child-murdering rapists.

SPOILER: Spoiler

From the spoiler chapters I can say that there is some of ADwD that I'm really gonna enjoy.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

Theon Greyjoy reminds me a lot of [b]Black Adder[/b].

He needs some (even more) incompetent sidekicks to make him appear more like a protagonist. Maybe Dolorous Ed and Hot Pie would do.

[lordofthesox]

[quote name='micswitch' post='1350409' date='May 10 2008, 17.54']I like Theon also but I wouldnt be devastated if he were to meet his Maker. I dont feel as connected to him as I do Arya or Tyrion. I think he is a tragic character that is just trying to live up to his fathers expectations and claim a place he thinks should be his. He really is homeless-the ironmen dont accept him and neither do the Starks. I feel for him and I really cant hate him even though he took Winterfell. Ramsay is the one that fucked him over and caused all the grief that he is taking the blame for.[/quote]

Why do you say that the Starks don't accept him? Wasn't he pretty much Robb's right-hand man? Bran mentions that Robb was almost always with Theon, neglecting even his own brother to spend time with him. He took part in Robb's counsels and he accompanied him in battle, and Theon even admitted that they were close friends. That seems like acceptance to me.

Theon *claims* that he felt like the Starks never accepted him, but that's just because he needs to justify his wrongdoings in his own mind. Eddard Stark raised him among his own children, and as far as I can remember, none of them seem to think badly of Theon other than Jon, but Jon was just a bastard--not of much importance. Sansa just seems to think of him as someone who was raised among her and her siblings, and Robb thinks of him as a close friend. The other children are too young to have given much thought to it. The Starks were every bit as kind to him as they should have been, and Theon repaid it with the worst kind of betrayal.

[sToNED_CAT]

Can someone explain me what was the point of killing those 2 little boys instead of Bran and Rickon? Surely Theon did it to make people fear him (instead of laugh at him), but it was very likely he'd gain just few weeks (at most). He knew the Starks wanted to go to some loyal castle so at the end the truth would be known to everyone in few days and Theon would become widely known not just as incompetent but also cruel.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

For Theon? I'm not sure. He's just blindly taking the advice of Reek. I believe he just wants to establish his reputation as a cruel reaver and conqueror of Winterfell -- to establish himself among his people and in his father's eyes. He also needs to deliver on his promise to slay the hostages. His inability to think things through to the logical conclusion is one of Theon's weak points -- along with his inability to tell when he's being manipulated by others.

Reek, on the other hand, has an entirely different motivation for wanting the children to appear to be dead.

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='Jakob Lightbringer' post='1352137' date='May 12 2008, 18.02']Reek, on the other hand, has an entirely different motivation for wanting the children to appear to be dead.[/quote]
... you know, I hadn't thought of that at all until now! Thank you! :cheers:

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='lordofthesox' post='1352024' date='May 12 2008, 09.56']Why do you say that the Starks don't accept him?[/quote]
Robb seemed to be the only one he was really close to, he kind of makes an exception in his mind for Robb. About Ned -- can you imagine thinking of the man who took you away from your father at the age of ten as your second father? Talk about getting off on the wrong foot, then on top of that add in Ned's cool manner and the Greyjoy condescension towards greenlanders, and it was always going to be a tough sell. Ned isn't the most affectionate guy and Theon is not in a mindset to really meet him half way. And I think it also is worth mentioning that a whole lot of Ned's parenting seems to be concerned with being Stark and being a pack, that's going to start feeling pretty exclusive to Theon.

Jon was important to Theon because he felt Jon was more a part of the family than himself, even though he was a legitimate ward. It's just human nature for Jon to possibly be jealous of Theon in turn, the grass is always greener.

All that doesn't mean I think Theon should just get off with an "Oh poor baby" for his actions though.

[Sneeki2]

Theon was always full of himself, though with the Starks he had little reason to flaunt it. After returning home he just caught up in trying to impress his family.

It really got bad when he got a taste of Ahsa. She turned out to be everything he wishes he could have been (minus the over-inflated ego). I imagine if he had grown up around the Ironborn he would have likely been a lot less conceited. There are plenty folk there that would have kept him humble.

He was an ok character before he went home (a little haughty, though), but after getting there he really showed how stupid he could be.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Sneeki2' post='1352410' date='May 12 2008, 15.31']I imagine if he had grown up around the Ironborn he would have likely been a lot less conceited. There are plenty folk there that would have kept him humble.[/quote]
It seems to me though that the Ironborn value a little bit of arrogance. That's a sign of strength as far as they're concerned. If Theon was seen as one of them all along, instead of as Ned Stark's lackey, I would think that growing up Theon would get the message that he has to earn respect the Greyjoy way. As it is, the Ironborn seem to revel in humbling him because they already assume him to be a sissy. It's kind of chicken and egg IMO.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1352253' date='May 12 2008, 13.24']Robb seemed to be the only one he was really close to, he kind of makes an exception in his mind for Robb. About Ned -- can you imagine thinking of the man who took you away from your father at the age of ten as your second father? Talk about getting off on the wrong foot, then on top of that add in Ned's cool manner and the Greyjoy condescension towards greenlanders, and it was always going to be a tough sell. Ned isn't the most affectionate guy and Theon is not in a mindset to really meet him half way. And I think it also is worth mentioning that a whole lot of Ned's parenting seems to be concerned with being Stark and being a pack, that's going to start feeling pretty exclusive to Theon.

Jon was important to Theon because he felt Jon was more a part of the family than himself, even though he was a legitimate ward. It's just human nature for Jon to possibly be jealous of Theon in turn, the grass is always greener.

All that doesn't mean I think Theon should just get off with an "Oh poor baby" for his actions though.[/quote]

I agree with you about Ned's inherent disadvantage as a father-figure, but I think he could have pulled it off anyway, mostly because I disagree with you about how affectionate he is. His wife calls him "cold," but she's really, really dumb, and his children all really love him and try really hard to make him proud and go to him for advice and stuff. i think i get this from his interactions with Sansa and Arya, especially when he officially let Arya keep Needle.

But still, you're right, Theon can't love Ned.

And again, you're right, Theon shouldn't get away with being an ass just because he had a conflicting father-figure. First of all, living at Winterfell so long, I think it's crazy that he had such a rosy disposition towards the other Greyjoys. He has seen the people that they hurt. Lest we forget that Greyjoys kill and rape and terrorize Northmen as if its their birthright.

Most of the rest of his actions seem to me to be the logical conclusion of deciding to be an Ironman. He kills a bunch of people on the way in to Winterfell, he kills a bunch of people in his attempt to keep Winterfell, he fakes two important deaths to scare the hell out of the North and make himself look good for a bit. It seems to me that's all classic Greyjoy stuff.

The reason I don't like Theon is because he had such promise. He was a courageous, if careless, warrior, and he had a unique perspective on Westeros. He could have been so much more -- and perhaps he may yet be. As we saw with Jaime, a humbling experience can do a boy good.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1352563' date='May 12 2008, 17.50']I agree with you about Ned's inherent disadvantage as a father-figure, but I think he could have pulled it off anyway, mostly because I disagree with you about how affectionate he is. His wife calls him "cold," but she's really, really dumb, and his children all really love him and try really hard to make him proud and go to him for advice and stuff. i think i get this from his interactions with Sansa and Arya, especially when he officially let Arya keep Needle.[/quote]
His wife doesn't seem to view him as cold, actually.

"This is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children. His hands were clasped together over his chest, skeletal fingers curled about the hilt of some longsword, but they were not Ned's hands, so strong and full of life. They had dressed the bones in Ned's surcoat, the fine white velvet with the direwolf badge over the heart, but nothing remained of the warm flesh that had pillowed her head so many nights, the arms that had held her. The head had been rejoined to the body with fine silver wire, but one skull looks much like another, and in those empty hollows she found no trace of her lord's dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone."

"She told herself that there had been no time, but the truth was that food had lost its savor in a world without Ned. When they took his head off, they killed me too."

"And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face."

[The Marquis de Leech]

[quote name='snake' post='1351994' date='May 13 2008, 03.35']I could never undestand why Theon was liked myself. I guess some people have soft spots for child-murdering rapists.[/quote]

Theon is not a rapist. If you're talking about the time he left the poor girl black and blue, it was the violence that was non-consentual. The sex itself was almost certainly consentual.

(Yes, I know I'm splitting hairs here, but while Theon's violence was reprehensible, it was not actual rape).

[ithanos]

He was what? nine when taken as a 'ward' of the Starks. We see Bran first as a nine year old and he seemed to already display the values and ideals of honor instilled by his elders. What was Theon like when he first came to Winterfell? I'm guessing Ned would have had to curb some of his Ironborn ideals from the start.

[Daeric]

On the killing of the two boys.

The reason I think he did it comes down to fear. He was in a hostile land surronded by enemies and the only thing which was keeping Winterfell household from murdering them all in their sleep was Bran and fear.

Then Bran and Rickon escape thats going to be bad enough for his hold on the household, that he let a young boy and a cripple get away, now imagine what would happen if he came back empty handed. At least with the mock killing of Bran and Rickon he established even more fear to try and counteract the disappearence of Brans influence. Of course it didn't work but thats how I see why he did it.

Better to be a tyrant then a buffoon in the eyes of the people.

[sToNED_CAT]

[quote name='SirRots' post='1353032' date='May 13 2008, 06.55']Better to be a tyrant then a buffoon in the eyes of the people.[/quote]

Yes, but is better being tyrant for maybe one week (the time Teon thought B&R needed to reach closest Stark loyalist so the word about them being alive gets out - remember that he didn't know they are hidden in crypts) and than become both bufoon and cruel monster?

[Matarreyes]

I was rather indifferent to Theon on my first read, but I kinda enjoy his character now. His actions are so very logical considering what kind of man he is, and his previous conflicting history. Yes, he is arrogant, and cruel, and scared, and jealous, and blind to a lot of things. It´s not noble, but it is perfectly understandable. GRRM goes out of his way to show how trapped he gets little by little, until there seems no other way but to kill or survive. Be honest with yourself: many people would do what he did, in his situation. Real life people. XXI century people. Survival comes first for all, and all the things he did were trying to improve his chances at exactly that. Why on earth do you expect him to put his life before that of others? You fault him for not being a saint. Ned Stark was a saint. There are maybe 5 other left among some 500 characters of the books. Again, I think the proportion is pretty close to our true real life.

A bit off topic, I find it really strange that readers question characters like Ramsay or Roose Bolton (true cold bloodied murderers and torturers) much less than characters like Theon and Jaime (attenuating circumstances, and some level of guilt). Black is black and so should it be, it would seem, but gray must be washed to white. I don´t see many topics discusing horrible deaths for Ramsay, I see topics discussing how cunning will he get to kill his father. But... Gruesome death to Theon. Yeah, right, he [i]deserves[/i] some horrible torture. Whoever thinks this way does not realise his own thought is making him worse than Theon ever was. I can´t recall him purposelessly torturing no character.

[quote name='lordofthesox' post='1352024' date='May 12 2008, 17.56']Why do you say that the Starks don't accept him?[/quote]

Because he comes off as an unlikable character from the first pages of the book, but you never exactly know why, though. Bran thinks of him as his father´s ward, and has no ill feelings. You never see him do anything good, random see him do anything bad. And that´s the root of it. There was no hate, there was no love, there was an indifference that seemed logical to the Starks and the readers alike throughout AGOT. But once I read about Theons take on the situation in ACOK, I swear I felt shame for myself. I remembered that I sensed something was wrong about his situation in Winterfell form the beginning and wrote it out in my own heart because I thought him not important, and because I thought Starks were always right. It´s a funny feeling, guilt for fictional character, but it´s there. Another sample of GRRM writing magic.

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1352824' date='May 12 2008, 22.00']His wife doesn't seem to view him as cold, actually.

"This is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children. His hands were clasped together over his chest, skeletal fingers curled about the hilt of some longsword, but they were not Ned's hands, so strong and full of life. They had dressed the bones in Ned's surcoat, the fine white velvet with the direwolf badge over the heart, but nothing remained of the warm flesh that had pillowed her head so many nights, the arms that had held her. The head had been rejoined to the body with fine silver wire, [b]but one skull looks much like another[/b], and in those empty hollows she found no trace of her lord's dark grey eyes, eyes that could be soft as a fog or hard as stone."

"She told herself that there had been no time, but the truth was that food had lost its savor in a world without Ned. When they took his head off, they killed me too."

"And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face."[/quote]
Wonderful quotes, Lady B.! Yes, Catelyn and Ned actually grew to love each other. It's interesting to think about how this could have happened? I mean, before they even had gotten to know each other that much (I assume) Ned shows up with a bastard that he means to raise in their home. I guess there must have been something about Ned that made Catelyn love him anyway. Plus, in their culture, Lords having bastards was not really that out of the ordinary (but raisng them among their own children was). Anyway, Catelyn loved Ned anyway :)

Off topic, I added some emphasis to your post above - is that an allusion to the skull sent to Dorne as Gregor's possibly being a substitute? Nah, couldn't be! ;)

On Theon, I've always found it interesting that it was he who (presumably) saved Bran's life with his bow when the wildlings, of whom Osha was a member, attacked and, then, Osha helped to protect Bran and Rickon from Theon when he attacked Winterfell. Just a bit of interesting role reversal, I guess :dunno: