The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[wakiki]

[quote name='howland_reed' post='1727406' date='Mar 20 2009, 15.13']I don't have a copy of ACOK with me, but doesn't Rhaeger break the 4th wall and directly look at Dany after that vision and make some remark along the lines of, "There is another, the dragon has three heads," as if he were speaking to her?[/quote]
[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1727477' date='Mar 20 2009, 15.53']He's looking at the camera.[/quote]
BAHAHAHA. You rock man!

[seasoup]

You know, with the scene in ACOK, I always assumed that Rhaegar was talking to Elia, but it only says

"Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

...

Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist,...

Why is there sadness just after the birth of Aegon? Two things occur to me as possibilities, 1) He's not speaking with his wife, Dany just thought he was, but with Wylla who is a nursemaid and the baby is Jon. 2) He's speaking with his wife Lyanna and the babe is Jon, who's real name is also Aegon, and has to leave her to go to the Trident. But then why would she be found dying in a bed of blood at the TOJ a month or so later? So much for that theory. The third reason for the sadness would be that he believes there must be a third and that Elia is not strong enough to provide a third baby so there are some tough decisions to make.

[Szar]

Timeline doesn't match either, seasoup. The timeline goes,
-Rhaegar dies
-Aegon, Elia, Rhaenys dies
-Lyanna dies

Jon could be born before the sack happens, but that is not likely at all. He is born "eight or nine" months prior to Daenerys' birth, which suggests around the sack or after.
There definitely isn't time for Rhaegar to be around when Jon is born, though.

[Shewoman]

Martin has said that the woman in Dany's vision is Elia. I think it's in the Thus Spake Martin collection.

[dragomort]

Just as another add-on to the 'proves nothing, but is interesting' side of things: I found it interesting that the whole first book is Ned's quest finding out about Robert's not-children with all of his actual children looking different and the 'fair yielding to the dark' (or whatever the wording was) in each case. There's just something perfectly symmetrical and humorous, imo, in having a 'mystery' paralleling it right in front of the reader's nose without them realizing it if that's the case.

[Lady Nymeria]

[quote name='dragomort' post='1749063' date='Apr 7 2009, 23.14']Just as another add-on to the 'proves nothing, but is interesting' side of things: I found it interesting that the whole first book is Ned's quest finding out about Robert's not-children with all of his actual children looking different and the 'fair yielding to the dark' (or whatever the wording was) in each case. There's just something perfectly symmetrical and humorous, imo, in having a 'mystery' paralleling it right in front of the reader's nose without them realizing it if that's the case.[/quote]

I agree, but I imagine a lot of people miss the mystery of Jon's parentage. I put together L+R=J on my own, but I know that there's a thread about "Things you missed on your first read" where several people say they never considered Jon's parentage. It's interesting, because it is a mystery, but one that is only passingly mentioned and often shrugged off. Only Jon and Catelyn seem to care about who Jon's mum is, and both of them are more or less resigned to never knowing the truth.

[dragomort]

[quote name='Lady Nymeria' post='1749107' date='Apr 7 2009, 23.17']I agree, but I imagine a lot of people miss the mystery of Jon's parentage. I put together L+R=J on my own, but I know that there's a thread about "Things you missed on your first read" where several people say they never considered Jon's parentage. It's interesting, because it is a mystery, but one that is only passingly mentioned and often shrugged off. Only Jon and Catelyn seem to care about who Jon's mum is, and both of them are more or less resigned to never knowing the truth.[/quote]
Oh, very much so. I didn't really consider it until my 2nd read either after all, but there is a certain beauty in putting a second mystery (albeit one that doesn't really matter at the time, but may come to be important in the near future) underneath the first one in that way so that it comes off as almost poetic if the solution is so similar is all, [b]especially[/b] if it goes unnoticed.

As long as it clears up Ashara in the solution as well (I've somehow became attached to her :unsure: ) and is logistically whole (which I'm certain it will be) while not being overly-cheesy I will be more than happy. :wideeyed:

[robs hand]

Ok i think that it is certanly possible but i think that GRRM is much trickier than that and i think he knows we have all seen Star Wars so it is probably somthing else....... who knows maybe Jon really is Neds son, and Lyannas

[dancer]

[size=1]Haha yeah, Ned and Lyanna's son, that would really be something.[/size]

[Shewoman]

I don't think Jon can be the child of Lyanna and Ned. According to the article "Who Are Jon Snow's Parents" at the Citadel, "We know from this e-mail (which is clickable at the Citadel) that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months. Given this, his conception seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war."

Interestingly, Ned and Catelyn's marriage and the conception of Robb on their wedding night seem to be around 1-3 months into the war as well. If the 1-3 month figure for the date of Jon's conception is correct, Ned couldn't be the father unless he and Lyanna were together between Harrenhal and Lyanna's disappearance (before Harrenhal is too early for Jon to be born when he was) or if Ned was involved in her disappearance. We are not aware that they were together during that time; it would be helpful to know where and when they had the conversation in which she said she knew Robert would never be faithful to her. Was that before Harrenhal? After? Were they at Winterfell or the Eyrie? (I'm never sure if I'm spelling that correctly).

I also find it hard to believe that Ned and Lyanna had a sexual relationship. If they did, I think Benjen, Brandon, and some of the Winterfell servants would have been aware of it, but as far as I know there's no mention of anything of the sort in the books.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='robs hand' post='1755945' date='Apr 15 2009, 11.50']Ok i think that it is certanly possible but i think that GRRM is much trickier than that and i think he knows we have all seen Star Wars so it is probably somthing else....... who knows maybe Jon really is Neds son, and Lyannas[/quote]

As someone who has indeed seen Star Wars, I don't get how L+R=J is at all like that plot line? I've seen posts that compare other scenarios to Star Wars, some with some validity and others with only a very superficial likeness, but you're the first to compare L+R=J to it. If you mean L+R=J follows a long line of hidden heirs in fantasy/mythology then I'd suggest Arthur or many other comparisons, not Star Wars (Luke is not an heir to any throne.) Nor does L+R=J presume that Jon is Azor Ahai or TPWWP, that is a separate discussion and might be a bit closer to what you suggest.

As far as Jon being Ned and Lyanna's child, I think Shewoman deals with that very unlikely possibility in her last post.

[howland_reed]

Regarding Ashara:

I feel she's just a red herring to lead readers into believing that she's Jon's mother, but at the same time, I feel she has/had a more significant role to play than just being Arthur Dayne's sister and Ned's childhood lover.

Her alleged suicide is, in my eyes, another big mystery of the series as I can't really accept the fact that she took her life because she was overwrought with grief from her brother's death. It's simply too neatly ribboned to swallow as truth. Either a) she's not dead, or b) her death has more ties to the story than is currently revealed. Whether it's tied with Jon's past, who knows?

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='howland_reed' post='1757206' date='Apr 16 2009, 10.49']Her alleged suicide is, in my eyes, another big mystery of the series as I can't really accept the fact that she took her life because she was overwrought with grief from her brother's death. It's simply too neatly ribboned to swallow as truth. Either a) she's not dead, or b) her death has more ties to the story than is currently revealed. Whether it's tied with Jon's past, who knows?[/quote]
Agreed. As it is her story sounds so much like one of Sansa's songs, wrought with romance and tragedy and melodrama, and as we're told, life is not a song. I'm willing to admit that the idea that she's alive is just as soap operatic, but I'd take that over what there is now, which sounds suspiciously perfect gossip fodder.

[Lady Nymeria]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1757469' date='Apr 16 2009, 14.53']Agreed. As it is her story sounds so much like one of Sansa's songs, wrought with romance and tragedy and melodrama, and as we're told, life is not a song. I'm willing to admit that the idea that she's alive is just as soap operatic, but I'd take that over what there is now, which sounds suspiciously perfect gossip fodder.[/quote]

This is very true, but it is often said that the songs have some basis in reality. It seems to me to be equally tragic and song-worthy if Jon were Ned and Ashara's son, with her killing herself after she realizes that her and Ned can never be together. One thing that irks me about that is that it would really lower my opinion of Ashara if she killed herself after having a child by the man she supposedly loved. I could see her being upset, but suicide when you've got a small child that needs his mother? Wouldn't or couldn't she find Jon to be her reason for living? If the excuse is something like post-partum, then okay, but that doesn't quite fit into the world of Westeros.

I agree there must be more to Ashara's death, but it seems to me to be much more likely that she'd want to kill herself if Ned came back with news of her brother's death as well as an illegitimate child. If the man you love, who claimed to love you, shows up with a kid and says the mother is one of your [i]servants[/i], then that would be a bit upsetting, IMHO. Of course, I don't know enough about Ashara or Wylla to say for sure.

[Lady Blackfish]

Well we actually know nothing about Ashara except that she was Elia's lady in waiting, a Dayne, and had purple eyes, we're given no actual personality. Nevertheless, in a series where the author shows people bearing much greater atrocities and still not feeling suicidal, I find it odd that he'd have had her kill herself because Ned couldn't be with her. More concretely, she knew for a year that he was married and then she supposedly killed herself (this is the biggest reason why "She had a broken heart" doesn't fly with me). I guess I also can't buy your scenario of Ashara being upset about Ned having an illegitimate child because men do that often and it wouldn't have come as a surprise to her (unless she was particularly sheltered?) and she had no claim over him. Suicide's a Big Deal, and I think GRRM shows us how far psyches can stretch and warp under duress before they hit rock bottom; she had to either be a rather melodramatic person herself or I think there's more to it.

A somewhat better scenario is that she killed herself because Ned wanted to take their baby from her, but owing to social customs this would be very unlikely unless the reason is really compelling -- like Lyanna's "Promise me," in which case N+A=J is untrue anyway. Another idea is that some information or other Ashara gave to Ned helped him find the Tower of Joy and kill her brother, and she feels responsible. Something like that, I might buy, something where she would believably feel tormented. I don't think it would've been simply her brother's death, plenty of women have lost their brothers in this (and every) war. I don't think it was the fact that her lover killed her brother either, she might be furious or crushed but I don't get why she would be suicidal.

Basically when Ned Dayne tells the story and Arya's response is something along the lines of "Sounds like one of Sansa's stupid songs," I'm inclined to go with that. Again this may just be because I'm not much of a romantic, but pitching herself out of a tower by the sea because the guy she met at a dance got married -- though neither pursued an engagement for the entire year between Harrenhal and the start of the war despite both being wholly unattached -- is just too much for me. Right now she's such a nexus of unadulterated romanticism, the spotted-across-the-room introduction, the celestial undertones of her family, her otherworldly eyes, her star-crossed story, that I just don't buy any of the tragically romantic reasons behind her suicide, I need something meatier, maybe something about her active involvement in Rhaegar's schemes, or to believe she didn't kill herself at all. I'm not trying to be a cynic, but I don't read GRRM's narrative intentions in such a way where I can see this story as anything other than the Westerosi equivalent of good tabloid gossip (of course, authorial intent is always a tricky thing).

[Lady Nymeria]

Well we actually know nothing about Ashara except that she was Elia's lady in waiting, a Dayne, and had purple eyes, we're given no actual personality. Nevertheless, in a series where the author shows people bearing much greater atrocities and still not feeling suicidal, I find it odd that he'd have had her kill herself because Ned couldn't be with her. More concretely, she knew for a year that he was married and then she supposedly killed herself (this is the biggest reason why "She had a broken heart" doesn't fly with me). I guess I also can't buy your scenario of Ashara being upset about Ned having an illegitimate child because men do that often and it wouldn't have come as a surprise to her (unless she was particularly sheltered?) and she had no claim over him. Suicide's a Big Deal, and I think GRRM shows us how far psyches can stretch and warp under duress before they hit rock bottom; she had to either be a rather melodramatic person herself or I think there's more to it.

A somewhat better scenario is that she killed herself because Ned wanted to take their baby from her, but owing to social customs this would be very unlikely unless the reason is really compelling -- like Lyanna's "Promise me," in which case N+A=J is untrue anyway. Another idea is that some information or other Ashara gave to Ned helped him find the Tower of Joy and kill her brother, and she feels responsible. Something like that, I might buy, something where she would believably feel tormented. I don't think it would've been simply her brother's death, plenty of women have lost their brothers in this (and every) war. I don't think it was the fact that her lover killed her brother either, she might be furious or crushed but I don't get why she would be suicidal.

Basically when Ned Dayne tells the story and Arya's response is something along the lines of "Sounds like one of Sansa's stupid songs," I'm inclined to go with that. Again this may just be because I'm not much of a romantic, but pitching herself out of a tower by the sea because the guy she met at a dance got married -- though neither pursued an engagement for the entire year between Harrenhal and the start of the war despite both being wholly unattached -- is just too much for me. Right now she's such a nexus of unadulterated romanticism, the chance-met introduction, the celestial undertones of her family, her otherworldly eyes, her star-crossed story, that I just don't buy any of the tragically romantic reasons behind her suicide, I need something meatier, or to believe she didn't kill herself at all. I'm not trying to be a cynic, but I don't read GRRM's narrative intentions in such a way where I can see this story as anything other than the Westerosi equivalent of good tabloid gossip (of course, authorial intent is always a tricky thing).

The events at Starfall are certainly intriguing. Meera's description makes Ashara seemed like a lively girl. I agree that the death of a brother, even if he was dear to her, should not be enough reason to motivate someone to suicide. Likewise, I doubt that Ned's marriage would be the cause. More like as not, there's some completely different reason behind it. I wonder, if she was Elia's lady in waiting, she would likely have been in KL during the sack, in which case you're probably on to something about her aiding Ned in finding Lyanna. I'd completely forgotten that she was close to Elia.

[The white rabbit]

Well we actually know nothing about Ashara except that she was Elia's lady in waiting, a Dayne, and had purple eyes, we're given no actual personality.

And this is the main problem, for now, in that "mess".

It is interesting that we know at least some traits of the personality of others "particpants" (Rheager, Lyanna, Arthur Dayne, Elia, Aerys), execpt Ashara.

And somehow I believe that she (or her personality) is the clue for the enigma.

[wakiki]

Well we actually know nothing about Ashara except that she was Elia's lady in waiting, a Dayne, and had purple eyes, we're given no actual personality. Nevertheless, in a series where the author shows people bearing much greater atrocities and still not feeling suicidal, I find it odd that he'd have had her kill herself because Ned couldn't be with her. More concretely, she knew for a year that he was married and then she supposedly killed herself (this is the biggest reason why "She had a broken heart" doesn't fly with me). I guess I also can't buy your scenario of Ashara being upset about Ned having an illegitimate child because men do that often and it wouldn't have come as a surprise to her (unless she was particularly sheltered?) and she had blah blah blah blah blah blah llamas are cool.

Hmmm, I think, with this post, you may have nearly convinced me that she's alive. Either she's alive, or there has to be some more information.

[Shewoman]

Martin has said that Ashara was one of Elia's maids in the early years of the Elia/Rhaegar marriage. I'm not sure if that would mean Ashara was in KL during the Sack. In any case, if she was she wasn't killed there, since it seems to be generally known (among Ned's men, for instance) that Ned saw her at Starfall after the fall of KL.

[Lady Blackfish]

Martin said something like Ashara wasn't tied to the floor of Starfall, which made it seem to me like Starfall would be the place where she'd be expected to be, which was why it was worth pointing out that she might not have been. Maybe she was only Elia's lady at court before she had approached a marrying age (we don't know how old she was either).

Also about if she's alive now or not: she might not be, even if she didn't kill herself at that time it doesn't necessarily mean she's alive now. But she could be. If Aegon is alive (GRRM has explicitly said Rhaenys is dead, but not Aegon, IIRC, and the skull they had was beyond recognition) she of course could be a logical person to stash the kid away with and send off to the Free Cities. There's obviously other candidates for that though, but Ashara could have naturally been at King's Landing with Elia at one point and then in Dorne at another. Both the Tower of Joy and Starfall are in the mountains (well, the ToJ is near the mountains, perhaps technically not in it though).

There's also the idea some floated around that Ashara Dayne was actually murdered.