The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1711178' date='Mar 6 2009, 17.50']Dragons were in existence during that time, I'm sure, but they were in Valyeria. I don't believe they made an appearance in Westeros until the Targaryens fled there after the Doom.[/quote]
Feral dragons used to live all over the world, GRRM has said so directly. In Westeros, there are at least three different old houses with dragon blazons besides the Targaryens. And the Ironborn kingsmoots are held at the skeleton of an ancient dragon from the age of heroes (though it's been speculated that Nagga was some other sort of giant aquatic reptile, since her fossilised ribs aren't black like dragon bones.
[quote]I don't see why she would let the bastard son of one of the key men responsible for the downfall of her family live. Or, for that matter, Tryion, the brother of the man who killed her father.[/quote]
A fundamental misreading of her character, I think. She expressly ordered that children of the slave-owning caste under the age of 13 were to be spared during the Sack of Astapor. She didn't punish them for the crimes of their fathers, why should she do so to Jon or Tyrion? Dany aspires to be just.

[Sirius]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1711197' date='Mar 6 2009, 17.03']A fundamental misreading of her character, I think. She expressly ordered that children of the slave-owning caste under the age of 13 were to be spared during the Sack of Astapor. She didn't punish them for the crimes of their fathers, why should she do so to Jon or Tyrion? Dany aspires to be just.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote]Also. Let's keep in mind Daenerys has a very, very strong animosity towards the Stark house, along with the Baratheon and Lannister houses. If Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna...I don't see why she would let the bastard son of one of the key men responsible for the downfall of her family live. Or, for that matter, Tryion, the brother of the man who killed her father.[/quote]

Dany's impression of the Stark's and Baratheon's was based on nothing but the rantings and ravings of her clearly troubled brother. As the plot progresses we see her realize more and more how crazy Viserys was, and I believe she will act more in a matter as to distance herself from him. Besides that, her father was crazy, and he started the War of the Usurper, and if her good judgement continues, she will just let by-gones be by-gones. Let's not forget that, dragons or no, Dany is going to have a considerably small invasion force, coming to Westeros, and it would be in her best interest to make friends rather than enemies.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1711178' date='Mar 6 2009, 23.50']I'm confused at what exactly you're trying to say here, to be honest. I don't recall Aemon ever claiming to be the second head, but upon further research I withdraw the original statement.[/quote][i]Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."[/i]

AFFC, fat pink mast chapter.

[Aplomb]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1711211' date='Mar 6 2009, 18.15'][i]Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."[/i]

AFFC, fat pink mast chapter.[/quote]

That quote (and some other stuff in the books) makes me think that Rhaegar misinterpreted the prophesy, and that we are following a red herring if we think it must mean three dragon riding Targs. It's surely possible the "dragon" is a resurgent House Targaryen with three "heads" ala Aegon I and his sisters, as Rhaegar apparently thought.

But that might be an overly literal interpretation, and the "dragon" of the prophesy might simply mean "the forces that combat the Others," and not [i]necessarily[/i] have to include Targs or even actual dragons. If so, it could mean there will have to be three leaders ("heads") bringing three distinct forces together into one combined body. That could be Dany and her dragons and followers, Jon and the NW and its Wall related magic, and . . . Stannis with Melissandre's brand of magic? I don't know, hell it could be Bran leading the CotF.

If the prophesy just meant a House Targaryen resurgent, why would Aemon want to be one of the three if not for his age? He's already had that struggle foregoing his Targ rights three times before and seemed finally at peace with setting aside his Targness. I think there is more to it (something much more important and critical Aemon found in that book he left Jon) than just Targ family business.

So, while we are wracking our brains trying to figure out how to legitimize a R+L= Jon and find another Targ bastard or switched baby to end up with three, we might just be falling for a big misdirection on GRRM's part.

[Stalker]

[quote name='Aplomb' post='1711322' date='Mar 7 2009, 01.39']a resurgent House Targaryen with three "heads" ala Aegon I and his sisters, as Rhaegar apparently thought.[/quote]

I think you may have gotten the timeline messed up here. The interpretation would have to be made long before the Targaryens were destroyed, or even in trouble.

[punkypickett]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1711178' date='Mar 6 2009, 16.50']Third head of...what though. The three heads have no meaning outside of the Targaryen Dragon prophecy. And Elia did not die giving birth, she was murdered.[/quote]

Three heads of the dragon. [url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Sentry_Box_Books_Signing_Calgary_Canada/"]GRRM says [/url] that they dont all have to be Targaryens. Also, Elia didn't give birth to any of these heads: Dany's mother was Rhaella, who died giving birth to her on Dragonstone, Jon's mother Lyanna* died giving birth at the ToJ, and Tyrion's mother Joanna died giving birth in Casterly Rock. The definition of third-born would have to be attributed to the father's side though, since Jon would have been Lyanna's first, as far as we know.

*if R+L=J

[bacchys]

[quote name='punkypickett' post='1714047' date='Mar 9 2009, 17.26']Three heads of the dragon. [url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Sentry_Box_Books_Signing_Calgary_Canada/"]GRRM says [/url] that they dont all have to be Targaryens.[/quote]
He says the third need not be a Targaryen, which suggests there are two Targaryens. We *know* of only one Targaryen.

[punkypickett]

[quote name='bacchys' post='1714244' date='Mar 9 2009, 18.29']He says the third need not be a Targaryen, which suggests there are two Targaryens. We *know* of only one Targaryen.[/quote]

Yes, but note the asterisk-- this all only makes sense IF R+L=J. (Whether the coupling would have resulted in a legitimate child or a bastard, Jon would still be a Targaryen.) If not, then my Third-Born-Motherless-Sons-Of-Guns theory doesn't matter at all. If it does turn out to be true though that Jon, Dany, and Tyrion end up being the three heads, well, at least they have something in common to break the ice when they first meet, right? :P

[Markgaryen]

One other possibility has occurred to me. Lyanna has Rhaegar's child at the Tower of Joy who Ned takes to Starfall to fulfill his promise to keep the child safe. At Starfall, Ashara presents him with their child. She agrees to take Lyanna's child if Ned takes his own child by Ashara to Winterfell. She sails across the sea with the suicide story just a cover.

Part2. So what happens to Ashara? Could she be Melisandre? And her friendship to Jon based on being his mother? And if Jon is really E+A=J then who is R+L's child? Darkstar? Or someone Dany meets across the water?

Epilogue- GRRM is a fan of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover and has borrowed several concepts from this body of work, as well as from history and many, many other sources. His is a rich universe. However in Darkover mythos, Sharra is the goddess of fire and there is also a keeper/priestess named Ashara. See Heritage of Hastur / Sharra's Exile for plots.

Darkover traits found in a Song of Ice & Fire include clingfire/wildfire, Seven Domains/Seven Kingdoms, The Wall Around The World, and many character names. There are however no dragons.

[Sirius]

[quote name='Markgaryen' post='1715895' date='Mar 10 2009, 23.49']One other possibility has occurred to me. Lyanna has Rhaegar's child at the Tower of Joy who Ned takes to Starfall to fulfill his promise to keep the child safe. At Starfall, Ashara presents him with their child. She agrees to take Lyanna's child if Ned takes his own child by Ashara to Winterfell. She sails across the sea with the suicide story just a cover.

Part2. So what happens to Ashara? Could she be Melisandre? And her friendship to Jon based on being his mother? And if Jon is really E+A=J then who is R+L's child? Darkstar? Or someone Dany meets across the water?

Epilogue- GRRM is a fan of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover and has borrowed several concepts from this body of work, as well as from history and many, many other sources. His is a rich universe. However in Darkover mythos, Sharra is the goddess of fire and there is also a keeper/priestess named Ashara. See Heritage of Hastur / Sharra's Exile for plots.

Darkover traits found in a Song of Ice & Fire include clingfire/wildfire, Seven Domains/Seven Kingdoms, The Wall Around The World, and many character names. There are however no dragons.[/quote]

Wow, how much ass would that kick. And it's even got a little basis in fact. I like it :)

[Sirius]

[quote name='Markgaryen' post='1715895' date='Mar 10 2009, 23.49']One other possibility has occurred to me. Lyanna has Rhaegar's child at the Tower of Joy who Ned takes to Starfall to fulfill his promise to keep the child safe. At Starfall, Ashara presents him with their child. She agrees to take Lyanna's child if Ned takes his own child by Ashara to Winterfell. She sails across the sea with the suicide story just a cover.

Part2. So what happens to Ashara? Could she be Melisandre? And her friendship to Jon based on being his mother? And if Jon is really E+A=J then who is R+L's child? Darkstar? Or someone Dany meets across the water?

Epilogue- GRRM is a fan of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover and has borrowed several concepts from this body of work, as well as from history and many, many other sources. His is a rich universe. However in Darkover mythos, Sharra is the goddess of fire and there is also a keeper/priestess named Ashara. See Heritage of Hastur / Sharra's Exile for plots.

Darkover traits found in a Song of Ice & Fire include clingfire/wildfire, Seven Domains/Seven Kingdoms, The Wall Around The World, and many character names. There are however no dragons.[/quote]

Wow, how much ass would that kick. And it's even got a [b]little[/b] basis in fact. I like it :)

[Markgaryen]

My personal belief is that Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon. What I wish to show is that it need not be the only possible answer.

Another open question is why did Benjen Stark choose the Wall. Really those are the three possible parents to Jon on the Stark side - Lyanna, Benjen and Ned. Nothing in the text to indicate Benjen.

Of the possible mothers we have Wylla, Ashara and Lyanna.

I'm cool if GRRM never resolves Jon Stark's parentage.

[Shewoman]

Martin has said that we will know the truth of Jon's parentage, but I don't know if the characters themselves will.

I think Benjen chose the Wall because during the war he had a taste of autonomy and power as the Stark in Winterfell (and, at Harrenhal, he had heard a recruiter for the Watch speak; that probably influenced him some). Ned came home with a true-born son and a bastard and sired more children, which made it unlikely that Benjen would ever become Lord Stark. I think he wanted more from life than watching Ned command a royal castle and realized that the Wall (always considered a reasonable choice by the Starks) would offer him a chance to create a life for himself.

[bacchys]

[quote name='punkypickett' post='1715177' date='Mar 10 2009, 14.16']Yes, but note the asterisk-- this all only makes sense IF R+L=J. (Whether the coupling would have resulted in a legitimate child or a bastard, Jon would still be a Targaryen.) If not, then my Third-Born-Motherless-Sons-Of-Guns theory doesn't matter at all. If it does turn out to be true though that Jon, Dany, and Tyrion end up being the three heads, well, at least they have something in common to break the ice when they first meet, right? :P[/quote]
I think GRRM's comment suggests there are two Targaryens regardless of R+L=J. Saying it's not necessary for the third head to be a Targaryen practically screams the other two are (though it could be a clever ruse on GRRM's part of the "not a quarter" type).

I'm not much for the baby Aegon theories because I don't see a candidate who has already crossed the stage. The one exception, imo, is Quentyn Martell, who may be the right age (or may not). We've not met him, but he's been mentioned. I don't see Martin suddenly revealing Aegon as the hidden, rightful King of Westeros for the past 17 years without having shown him to us in another guise and dropped a few clues that, in hindsight, should have told us all along who he was.

Viserys is dead, dead, dead. So is every other known Targaryen with the exception of Danaerys. So, if that quote is suggesting the second head of the dragon is a Targaryen, the list of candidates to fill that role seems to me to be rather short. Speaking for myself, it's a list of one.

[Rinso]

What I don't get about the baby Aegon is why is he kept in SUCH secrecy? If Varys saved him by swapping him with another baby before the Sack, then why he and Illyrio would try to help [i]Daenerys [/i]get the Iron Throne? If Aegon was alive, he would have been well ahead of Dany in the line of succession.

My guess for another Targaryen would be one of Bittersteel or Daemon Blackfyre's descendants on Essos.

[Szar]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1720700' date='Mar 16 2009, 12.14']What I don't get about the baby Aegon is why is he kept in SUCH secrecy? If Varys saved him by swapping him with another baby before the Sack, then why he and Illyrio would try to help [i]Daenerys [/i]get the Iron Throne? If Aegon was alive, he would have been well ahead of Dany in the line of succession.[/quote]
One explanation is that they want to keep him a secret. Daenerys is a public Targaryen.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Szar' post='1721308' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.21']One explanation is that they want to keep him a secret. Daenerys is a public Targaryen.[/quote]They keep him a secret because they want to keep him a secret... That just blew my mind.

[Szar]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1721328' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.47']They keep him a secret because they want to keep him a secret... That just blew my mind.[/quote]
Yeah, but they want to keep keeping him a secret. ;)

[Shewoman]

After they've kept the secret, what'll they do?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='bacchys' post='1720697' date='Mar 16 2009, 06.03']I think GRRM's comment suggests there are two Targaryens regardless of R+L=J. Saying it's not necessary for the third head to be a Targaryen practically screams the other two are (though it could be a clever ruse on GRRM's part of the "not a quarter" type).

I'm not much for the baby Aegon theories because I don't see a candidate who has already crossed the stage. The one exception, imo, is Quentyn Martell, who may be the right age (or may not). We've not met him, but he's been mentioned. I don't see Martin suddenly revealing Aegon as the hidden, rightful King of Westeros for the past 17 years without having shown him to us in another guise and dropped a few clues that, in hindsight, should have told us all along who he was.

Viserys is dead, dead, dead. So is every other known Targaryen with the exception of Danaerys. So, if that quote is suggesting the second head of the dragon is a Targaryen, the list of candidates to fill that role seems to me to be rather short. Speaking for myself, it's a list of one.[/quote]

May I suggest a reason this Aegon baby swap theory is kept alive by Martin - meaning he refuses to confirm Aegon is dead. We have a character who is mentioned in the previous books that we have yet to meet, the mummer's dragon. I'd guess we have a character in future books that claims to be a Targaryen but isn't. The scenario practically screams "[url="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048947/"]Anastasia[/url]," with the baby "Aegon" part taking over for the Russian princess, and being played by who knows who.

SPOILER: ADWD

Look to the Tyrion chapters for the most likely candidate