Jacen Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Mek of the Prologue doesn't seem like Mek that shows up in Thousand Fold Thought. These guys are CRAZY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delete this account pls Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 [quote name='Triskele' post='1704357' date='Mar 2 2009, 15.05']So there are Nonmen who are not going insane or they all are? I'm confused. I know for sure that the erratics are and how they seek out trauma to remember...But I thought all the surviving Nonmen did that? Is it just the erratics? Are there some totally sane Nonmen in Ishterebinth still?[/quote] We don't really know, though IMO it's implied the Nonmen of Ishterebinth aren't Erratics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondrew Tyrell Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 There's a cute joke in TJE that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread: in one of the women threads, Bakker said [quote]I literally think certainty is a disease, and that if and [b]when we are finally wiped out, certainty will likely be the culprit.[/b][/quote] "Certainty" is the name of Kellhus's sword. :uhoh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jora Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 [quote name='Triskele' post='1704327' date='Mar 2 2009, 05.29']That's actually a great question. I don't think we're told too much in the prologue when Kellhus encounters Mekeritrig. I do remember him thinking "This is nothing like Leweth. Nothing at all." My guess is that Kellhus would be better at judging a nonman than any other man would be, but that his ability to read them would be limited as oppose to him almost unlimited ability to read men.[/quote] Also, he couldn't read Cnaiur properly because Cnaiur was insane, and he might have problems with Erratics for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski the Swift Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If he could read Cnaiur fine then you reckon he wouldn't of allowed him to tell Akka of his origins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jora Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 It has been some time since I read PoN, but if I remember correctly, there's a scene in TTT where Kellhus and Cnaiur clash on some beach and Kellhus realizes that he can't read Cnaiur. Bakker said he can't read someone who is insane because the person's thoughts don't follow any discernible logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 [quote]If he could read Cnaiur fine then you reckon he wouldn't of allowed him to tell Akka of his origins.[/quote]That's easy - Kellhus screwed up. He couldn't manipulate Cnaiur because Cnaiur's only reaction to Kellhus was no matter what, [i]do the opposite of what he asks[/i]. The best Kellhus could do was kill him, and Kellhus remarks several times that he should have. He reads Cnaiur fine, but it doesn't matter. He reads insanity and illogic and pain, and knows precisely where it came from. And it doesn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jora Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 [quote name='Kalbear' post='1704939' date='Mar 2 2009, 20.25']That's easy - Kellhus screwed up. He couldn't manipulate Cnaiur because Cnaiur's only reaction to Kellhus was no matter what, [i]do the opposite of what he asks[/i]. The best Kellhus could do was kill him, and Kellhus remarks several times that he should have. He reads Cnaiur fine, but it doesn't matter. He reads insanity and illogic and pain, and knows precisely where it came from. And it doesn't help.[/quote] I'm pretty sure that on the Three Seas board Bakker spesifically said that Cnaiur's insanity made him unreadable to Kellhus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonman_erratic Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 [quote name='Jora' post='1705053' date='Mar 2 2009, 14.01']I'm pretty sure that on the Three Seas board Bakker spesifically said that Cnaiur's insanity made him unreadable to Kellhus.[/quote] He did. And there was a chapter in TTT where Kelhus specifically thought that Cnaiur was no longer of use because he couldnt read him. Which, by extension, suggests Kelhus would not be able to read the Nonmen, who are all going insane... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I'd imagine that he couldn't read them because he has no baseline for judging anyway. They're alien. But I don't remember the part with kellhus and Mek all that well. I totally now want one of the Gods to fight Kellhus with an army of totally insane people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacen Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I think he wants to be a God himself, for real this time. I believe he wants to kill the Consult off- as competitiors, not enemies (and perhaps steal the Tekne from them). I think he wants to either kill the Gods or shut the world off from them so he has sole dominion over humankind. He has to figure out a way to avoid damnation. His rationale will be that it's because he is more fit for the job of God than anyone else, Gods included.. Somehow his briefly-mentioned trips to Hell figure in to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lies And Perfidy Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Triskele' post='1704357' date='Mar 1 2009, 20.05']So there are Nonmen who are not going insane or they all are? I'm confused. I know for sure that the erratics are and how they seek out trauma to remember...But I thought all the surviving Nonmen did that? Is it just the erratics? Are there some totally sane Nonmen in Ishterebinth still?[/quote] It's heavily implied that [i]all[/i] Nonmen are insane, because their minds are not equipped to handle immortality; after long enough, memories slip away, so even the youngest have great gaping holes in their memory. In addition, the only things that really stick with them are tragedy, so the minds of Nonmen are pitted with horrifying and tragic remembrances. Erratics, however, are the only ones that deliberately seek out (and cause) pain and grief, to spark their own memories. So while they're all insane, the Nonmen of Ishterebinth can be thought to be somewhat benign, whereas Erratics are, well, just that. The more an Erratic loves someone, the more he's drawn to that person's murder so as to fix them in his memories forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackaxx Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Regarding reading Cnauir wrong, pitying him, etc etc. What about reading him perfectly, not pitying him and allowing him to spill the beans to Akka? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bryar Ashford Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Triskele' post='1705227' date='Mar 2 2009, 16.33']A lot of people seem to think that Kellhus has some goal with the great Ordeal [i]other[/i] than destroy the Consult. If so, what are some of the leading theories? I mean, we're all suspicious of Kellhus and his motives but it seems like we don't really have a ton from the text to suggest otherwise.[/quote] Kellhus wants to kill off the entirety of the Great Ordeal to try and seal the world from the outside. He wants to do this b/c he is a sorcerer and we now know that sorcerers are truly damned. If Kellhus prevents the world from being sealed to the Outside then he is damning himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacen Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Ser Bryar Ashford' post='1705473' date='Mar 2 2009, 20.59']Kellhus wants to kill off the entirety of the Great Ordeal to try and seal the world from the outside. He wants to do this b/c he is a sorcerer and we now know that sorcerers are truly damned. If Kellhus prevents the world from being sealed to the Outside then he is damning himself.[/quote] The Ordeal numbers about 300,000 men. While that is a huge army, it is still a fraction of the world's population. I would guess it would take ALOT more people to die before the world would be shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackaxx Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Also, your making an assumption that Kellhus is in it for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Ser Bryar Ashford' post='1705473' date='Mar 2 2009, 21.59']Kellhus wants to kill off the entirety of the Great Ordeal to try and seal the world from the outside. He wants to do this b/c he is a sorcerer and we now know that sorcerers are truly damned. If Kellhus prevents the world from being sealed to the Outside then he is damning himself.[/quote] I think there is only one immutable law in Bakkerworld: What comes before determines what comes after. When Kel discovers sorcery he thinks the law is broken. He learns it is not. When he discovers the outside he thinks the law is broken. Papa Moe affirms that it is not. Kel has "declared" that sorcerers are saved, but it is not yet so. If declaring it made it so then the law would be broken. Just as Kel thinks the law is broken when he first sees sorcery. However it doesn't mean that sorcerers will always be damned. Besides closing the world to the outside, perhaps Kel can change the outside. If the law holds even in the outside then the outside can change. Kel could 'come before' the outside. If he can come before the outside, then he can save the sorcerers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Mackaxx' post='1705512' date='Mar 2 2009, 22.31']Also, your making an assumption that Kellhus is in it for himself.[/quote] He is. Kel has one goal, to dominate circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Bryar Ashford Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Jacen' post='1705508' date='Mar 2 2009, 21.29']The Ordeal numbers about 300,000 men. While that is a huge army, it is still a fraction of the world's population. I would guess it would take ALOT more people to die before the world would be shut.[/quote] Maybe a good start? Also, maybe if all the generals and soldiers worth a damn die on the Black Furnace Plain then it will be that much easier to slaughter everyone in the 3 Seas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 [quote name='Ser Bryar Ashford' post='1705557' date='Mar 2 2009, 23.31']Also, maybe if all the generals and soldiers worth a damn die on the Black Furnace Plain then it will be that much easier to slaughter everyone in the 3 Seas?[/quote] Yeah, but the Zeum prince is going to steal the Heron Spear and escape, so it'll all be okay in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.