a preview of universal health coverage

[Shryke]

[quote name='Swordfish' post='1686926' date='Feb 14 2009, 16.54']I don't think you necesarily understand how group health coverage contracts are created.[/quote]

Youi'll have to explain what in the hell your referencing.

[Swordfish]

[quote name='The Czar' post='1686938' date='Feb 14 2009, 14.03']We bitch about those things in our UHC all the time as people always want more and better. That doesn´t mean we wouldn´t fight against anyone who tried to take away almost anything from the current system.[/quote]


That is exactly the point.

It will be politically inconvenient to deny or remove coverage or drugs regardless of cost.

[Shryke]

And yet it happens all the time anyway. Coverage has changed under UHC many times in most countries.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

[quote name='Swordfish' post='1686955' date='Feb 15 2009, 00.16']That is exactly the point.

It will be politically inconvenient to deny or remove coverage or drugs regardless of cost.[/quote]
You may be surprised but politicians don´t really have much to do with those decisions here.

[Swordfish]

[quote name='The Czar' post='1686972' date='Feb 14 2009, 14.34']You may be surprised but politicians don´t really have much to do with those decisions here.[/quote]


There is not here.

[Sariel]

[quote name='Swordfish' post='1686994' date='Feb 15 2009, 00.16']There is not here.[/quote]

you keep saying that, as if there's some kind of magical gulf between the US and say England that makes everything England does turn into shit in the hands of the US. I'm amazed you've managed to last this long.

[Shryke]

It's the "Unique Snowflake" defense. You'll see it alot if you read these threads.

[Sariel]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1686997' date='Feb 15 2009, 00.23']It's the "Unique Snowflake" defense. You'll see it alot if you read these threads.[/quote]

yeah, so I've figured. If it had been india, not the US, then I would've been willing to buy it. The US on the other hand, really is not that much different from Europe. Sure, here and there values vary, but compared to the rest of the world our differences are closer to semantic than anything in my opinion

[Shryke]

And god forbid you suffer an injury that requires frequent but non-emergency care. Have fun with that pre-existing condition.

Workers who can't afford to keep themselves healthy are bad for the economy.

[Lord of Oop North]

Okay, you've all convinced me.

America runs a trillion-dollar military system fairly efficiently but apparently can't run a billion-dollar health care system efficiently. You somehow maintain the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, for no apparent reason, but you can't afford to provide health care for all of your people. You can afford to launch multi-billion dollar wars, for no apparent reason, but you can't afford to provide health care for all of your people. How strange! Hell, the fuckin' desert wallabies down in Oz don't even have water and they built a UHC system. Even New Zealand did it. And I'm pretty sure they haven't even invented nuclear power down there yet. Fuck, I think even the Germans did it, and you guys bombed their country into oblivion only fifty years ago. If America can't do what all those people did, then America really is [i]special[/i], if you know what I mean.

:P

[Skyrazer]

[quote name='Lord of Oop North' post='1687032' date='Feb 15 2009, 11.11']Okay, you've all convinced me.

America runs a trillion-dollar military system fairly efficiently but apparently can't run a billion-dollar health care system efficiently. You somehow maintain the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, for no apparent reason, but you can't afford to provide health care for all of your people. You can afford to launch multi-billion dollar wars, for no apparent reason, but you can't afford to provide health care for all of your people. How strange! Hell, the fuckin' desert wallabies down in Oz don't even have water and they built a UHC system. Even New Zealand did it. And I'm pretty sure they haven't even invented nuclear power down there yet. Fuck, I think even the Germans did it, and you guys bombed their country into oblivion only fifty years ago. If America can't do what all those people did, then America really is [i]special[/i], if you know what I mean.

:P[/quote]
Indeed. America, if you're so incapable of implementing an effective UHC system, then you've got problems that go far beyond than just a half-assed private based health system.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1687089' date='Feb 14 2009, 21.34']It's not balking at the challenge, Triskele. For those who believe the system is ok (as I do, obviously), it's a "why fix what isn't broken"?

Sadly, there will always be people who are working poor. It's how capitalism works. If we can recognize this, do the American thing and try and give them a "hand up and not a handout" (job training or re-training if they're in a dying industry, incentives to go to college or technical school), this lack of insurance won't be a real, long-term problem for them, but rather, something temporary.[/quote]

Ahh, so their only temporarily fucked.

Unless they've got a chronic condition or gain a condition while they can't afford insurance. Then their just just straight fucked.

[Shryke]

Paying cash counts as an option? We're talking about poor people, remember?

Ok, let's get to the heart of this bullshit. You keep saying "It's ok, their are other options".

If the current system isn't a problem, why does your countries health statistics suck?

You spend more then anyone else, your life expectancy is lower and huge swaths of the country go uninsured?

[Shryke]

In Canada, there's an essentially level of service everyone gets from the government. You can pay to get other services on top of that.

Like private rooms, for instance, you generally have to pay for.

[gryphon strike]

[quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1687089' date='Feb 15 2009, 13.04']It's not balking at the challenge, Triskele. For those who believe the system is ok (as I do, obviously), it's a "why fix what isn't broken"?

Sadly, there will always be people who are working poor. It's how capitalism works. If we can recognize this, do the American thing and try and give them a "hand up and not a handout" (job training or re-training if they're in a dying industry, incentives to go to college or technical school), this lack of insurance won't be a real, long-term problem for them, but rather, something temporary.[/quote]
Please I know this is going to sound bad but understand I am not meaning it in a bad way.

One of the problems you have also Chataya is that people are also limited by ability, some have no hope of becoming an accountant but might make a great mechanic and unfortunately the lowest levels of society are full of people who are not really that bright and those who prey upon them. It is easy to forget this because even the dumbest members here seem to be well above average intelligence, I suspect we have a few members who hit the genius IQ mark also so here we don't see it. But for example there have been calls here within those sections of the community to make it legal to use torture on suspected arsonists.
So yes there are plenty of dumb people out there and that too limits their marketability on the job market.
Apart from that one rather longwinded point I agree with you.

[Aemon Stark]

[quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1687096' date='Feb 14 2009, 22.40']Very few are ever "fucked", Shryke. You're in Canada, so you must not know that there are interest groups dedicated to helping people with certain (expensive) diseases out there, there is always the option of paying cash, and there are also teaching hospitals that will take people with chronic conditions or do free clinics on a weekly basis.[/quote]

Ding Ding. Being Canadian does not make us ignorant of the existence of disease-based interest groups. And paying cash? For what? Bypass? A pacemaker? Insulin? So it's not really a problem because there are a handful of charitable groups and hospitals which will provide limited care to people unable to pay? Is the US stuck in the 19th Century still?

I'd also offer that you have a vastly overestimated view of socioeconomic mobility in the US. Most people who grow up "working poor" remain so throughout their lives. Rags to riches stories are rare enough as it is.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

[quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1687096' date='Feb 14 2009, 18.40']Very few are ever "fucked", Shryke...[/quote]

Count my dad amongst the "very few". He lives in a rural part of Oregon, the closest teaching hospital is 300+ miles away. And free clinics unfortunately do not deal with strokes, which is what he had in September. He is self-employed, and does not have insurance. He could have gotten insurance under my mother's work plan, however, because she earns .50 over minimum wage, it would have made her paychecks so small that they could not meet day-to-day bills.

He's doing alright (as much as someone with a brain bleed can do), but will require months more of occupational and physical therapy. And they already have about a $90k hospital bill going, with the air transport and ICU stay, so there's no telling what they will top out at. They may lose their house because of one emergency.

They are a very active part of the community, and their church and the town they live in has had several charity events for them, amounting to about 1/3 of the hospital bills so far, which is great. I've explored the HC facilitys charitable foundations, and they may be able to help them out on their bill a little bit, but unfortunately, they've almost maxed out their write-offs for the year, because of all the other "very few" people out there trying to get a break on their hospital bills.

I'd like to live in a magical world where teaching hospitals and charities take care of all of those who can't afford their healthcare: unfortunately, if this ever existed in some partial form (it's helped, but not nearly enough with my folks), it is going to snap beneath the sheer quantity of uninsured poor and working poor people who will still need to see a doctor in the very near future, as more and more are unemployed.

Oh, and BTW, I don't believe anyone asking for "the same healthcare that Congress has" is actually serious about getting that pushed through. I thought it was more of an argumentative device to illustrate that public servants actually have healthcare, as opposed to whoever they are serving, and Congress should think about the plight of their uninsured constituents whilst voting. I think it would be a great publicity stunt to have all public servants' insurance benefits tied to the median rate that the rest of us pay for our care. Might make them a bit more empathetic :)

[Shryke]

Damn Vigo, that sucks. I hope your parents make it out of this ok.

[IheartTesla]

Yeah agreed. I feel for what your parents are going through.

I was about to post my own insurance-less travails, but I guess I wont. But I wil say this, I agree 100 % with Obama when he said health care is a right. No one will ever be able to convince me otherwise, that private enterprise should take the place of government in taking care of people who truly deserve help. Everyone who can take take of their own insurance needs from their work can do so, but the 45 million without any deserve a hand too.

[The Real Will]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1687104' date='Feb 15 2009, 13.46']For the record as I stated long ago in this thread, I have never been for that line that you and I agree was a disingenuous political line you posted above. And I don't think that any legislator would actually try and pass a law that amounted to as much. Again, not knowing exactly how to do it, what I hope to see someday is a system in which those with money still typically have access to the most expensive treatments out there, but that it's a piece of cake for everyone to get doctor's appointments and such. '

Some of you from Canada, UK, etc...is this not more or less what you have? Or rather, it's not as if everyone in Canada believes that he or she has the same healthcare options as the wealthiest do they?[/quote]

It depends a little on what you mean. Australia (the system I know most about) has public healthcare and private health insurance, but the differences are more in the percs than the level of care. Access to private rooms and private hospitals, reduced wait times, and so forth. It may be debatable, but I'm not sure that the quality of care is that different between the private and public systems. We certainly all go to the same GPs and specialists. So, no, probably not the same options as people with private insurance, but possibly the same level of care.

Something else, which I think bares pointing out, is that UHC actually improves the private health insurance industry--at least in Australia. We have all these private health insurers, but you never hear the same horror stories about them that you hear about American insurers. Not, I suspect, because they are any more altruistic, I have no doubts that they'd screw us over in seconds if they felt they could, but because they have to compete with a system that is free and generally well respected. (There may also be a regulatory component, I'm not sure). When all of your customers could get up an leave at any moment, denying claims and jacking up prices are probably not in your best interests.