iheartseverus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Okay, I read the entire Darkstar Hate thread and I must say I've never seen a funnier, more outrageous thread about any character on any board. Ever. Its flat out hilarious. But, in fairness, its waaaay over the top. The sheer level of ridicule directed toward a barely-sketched character just astounded me. There's the black streak in his white hair (which, frankly, I thought was pretty cool); there's the name itself--Darkstar (which frankly, I found no more or less dramatic or chi-chi than many others like Red Viper, Sword of the Morning, the Mountain That Rides, etc); and there's those five little words that seem to have driven readers starkers. "I am of the Night." *shrugs* Once again, it seemed an ordinary response to his being asked if he was the next Sword of the Morning. To top it all off, there's his apparent attempt to whack off Myrcella's head--and it seems it wasn't the head-whacking that drove readers into a frenzy of ridicule, it was that he failed in the head-whack, only managing to cut her face and sever her ear. We don't need yet another Darkstar Hate thread--the one already in existence is flat-out priceless. But what I'm wondering is--once you learn more about him than these few puny facts we now have, can your opinion of him ever change/grow/alter? Can he be rehabilitated in your eyes into someone worthy of respect, fear, love, whatever GRRM has in store for him? I'm blank at this moment on the exact details of another character who's described as a perfectly adequate nobleman who had an unfortunate 'gaseous event' that earned him the name Breakwind--is Darkstar similarly tarnished beyond redemption, even though we know virtually nothing about him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-ahrairah Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I completely agree - we know nothing about him, what he was really trying to do, and why he has his (in)famous line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinso Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Darkstar is beyond hope of recovery. No matter what he do, or we learn about him, he will still be ridiculed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Sure he could. Westeros has to have some hair dye, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Kalbear' post='1683599' date='Feb 11 2009, 20.00']Sure he could. Westeros has to have some hair dye, right?[/quote] That is so funny! That's all over the Darkstar Hate thread, of course. Why does anybody think he dyed a streak in his hair?? I mean, what, somebody made that up and everybody else agreed? Does Jaqen dye his hair half red and half white? Does Tyrion dye his yellow, white and black? Why do all these other guys get away with weird hair, but not Darkstar? :stunned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Unless GRRM intended to bring him in as a masked vigilante who stalks the night and uses an entry phrase such as "I am the [i]Other[/i], that buggers you while you sleep", or he intends to use him as some other form of comic relief, then yeah... the most Dangerous man in all of Dorne couldn't manage to kill a helpless little girl... and to top it off, he came across as an overtly emo little goth kid from the moment that he stepped into the story... now, there still exists the possibility that GRRM has intentionally thrown us into the conclusion that poor Darkwing is incompetent and worthy only of ridicule just to surprise us with an awesome character later... He does things like that... but... I still prefer thinking of Darkwing Dayne exactly as I do now... This series could use a little bit of comic relief, and He is the joke that makes you laugh in church, He is the sickness that makes you laugh at accidents, He is the slinky on the stairs of our transcendence... He is Darkwing Dayne! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Jaqen's red/white hair was not actually natural, given that he changes it with magic in the book. I'm also going to say that people don't give Tyrion crap because he doesn't run around announcing "I am the Imp, and I am of the bad genetics". But yes, it's possible that Darkstar was half Dayne, half Pepe Le Peu. There have been plenty of people with a big flamboyant stripe of non-color in their hair, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Kalbear' post='1683630' date='Feb 11 2009, 20.26']I'm also going to say that people don't give Tyrion crap because he doesn't run around announcing "I am the Imp, and I am of the bad genetics".[/quote] :lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antisocial Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Hes written almost as if hes a super hero. His birth, his name, his attitude, his phrase, even his hair. But in the end, hes just a "Casey at the Bat" We like to make fun of his arrogance (as hes written), and laugh at his failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm just fascinated with this topic--because, in truth, we have only the very briefest sketch of him at all. Yet people's feelings immediately flamed up against him. Hell, most of the sword-wielding characters in this series are arrogant, strutting around because of their names, their Houses, their prowess with weapons, their flamboyant peacock outfits. In truth, I barely even registered Darkstar the first few reads, until I saw that hate thread. 'Tis a mystery to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antisocial Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='iheartseverus' post='1683777' date='Feb 11 2009, 19.38']I'm just fascinated with this topic--because, in truth, we have only the very briefest sketch of him at all. Yet people's feelings immediately flamed up against him. Hell, most of the sword-wielding characters in this series are arrogant, strutting around because of their names, their Houses, their prowess with weapons, their flamboyant peacock outfits. In truth, I barely even registered Darkstar the first few reads, until I saw that hate thread. 'Tis a mystery to me...[/quote] I have to agree with you. When I first read him, I was like "Ooookay" And then I just ignored him. But after reading his hate thread, I enjoy disliking him, mainly because its so fun. Thats the best answer I can come up with. Darkstar is this place own ser piggy. I think there was a post in that thread that he had an X-man like name, looks, and phrase, yet he failed so badly at that one little thing, when he was written to be so badass. I think maybe the hate is directed at our disappointment of him? (its why he reminds me of Casey at the Bat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howlin' Howland Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 God I hope I'm right and Gerold is Jon Snow's twin brother...just so I can read the reactions after grrm lets us know (they'll be priceless). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Howlin' Howland' post='1683810' date='Feb 11 2009, 23.15']God I hope I'm right and Gerold is Jon Snow's twin brother...just so I can read the reactions after grrm lets us know (they'll be priceless).[/quote] Now, that's a new one on me! Jon's twin? What's the theory here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howlin' Howland Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='iheartseverus' post='1683816' date='Feb 11 2009, 23.22']Now, that's a new one on me! Jon's twin? What's the theory here?[/quote] I've posted it in detail on two or three different threads. Its weak, mostly based on Gerold's Physical description (looks like either a Stark/targ mix, a Martell/targ mix or a Stark/Dayne mix). Ashara's "suicide" and why she might fake her death. GRRMs reaction when he heard people were mocking Darkstar(only time I've heard him give a negative reaction to a fans reaction). The amount of effort given into describing a new character (his descriprion is about three times longer than any other character's initial description in the series). And Prince Doran describing him as the most dangerous man in all of Dorne (I think because of his ancestry not his abilities). I like the theory because it answers multiple questions. But nothing proves it and the timeline for ages is tough (arriana (sp?) is 23 and Dayne/Jon would be 17 but age isn't mentioned). But Darkstar = Aegon meets all the same criteria without as much trouble with his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='iheartseverus' post='1683816' date='Feb 12 2009, 00.22']Now, that's a new one on me! Jon's twin? What's the theory here?[/quote] I pushed that one a while ago as a variant on the "Aegon the Darkstar" theory. There are hints throughout the Arianne's description of Ser Gerold that he may have Targ connections. His coloring, his madness, etc. It goes like this, suppose Lyanna gives birth to two fraternal twins at the Tower of Joy. One takes after Lyanna (Jon) and the other takes after Rhaegar (Darkstar.) Where would Eddard hide such a child as young Ser Gerold? With a family with similar coloring, the Daynes, so as to cover the tracks of a Targaryen heir. There are hints that make one pause, but this is very definitely crackpot territory. Fun stuff, but needs to be handled with care and not taken in large doses. My guess, still on the crackpot side of things, is that its more likely if Ser Gerold is a secret Targ he comes from one of the passed over lines - the ones that were too nuts to be considered for the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howlin' Howland Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='iheartseverus' post='1683816' date='Feb 11 2009, 23.22']Now, that's a new one on me! Jon's twin? What's the theory here?[/quote] Here's a copy of my initial post on the topic. "Pg 301 affc grrm spends a page and a half describing Gerold Dayne. That's about three times as long as the description of any other character, that means Darkstar is important. Also, GRRM is reported to have been upset when he found out readers were mocking Darkstar, the only other time I ever heard about grrm caring about the fan's opinion of a character was Sandor Clegane, he was surprised how much we liked him. So grrm wants us to respect Gerold. The physical description is silver hair with a black streak that looks black in the moonlight. Eyes that look black in the moonlight but are actually dark violet. An aquilline nose (I don't remember a character with an aquilline nose). The most attractive man in Dorne (Rheagar was very attractive by all accounts). Dayne has no parents listed in the description of minor houses but he is described as coming from high quality birth and he names Arthur Dayne and Nedric Dayne as his cousins although they can't both be first cousins. And he is lord of a remote isolated keep (that's why the conspirators needed him). The major houses with dark coloring are Martel, Stark, and Greyjoy. With silver/violet are Dayne and Targ. The three most likely scenarios (but certainly not the only) 1) Eddard actually did have a bastard with Ashara, but not Jon. Ashara faked suicide and went into hiding because robert wouldn't believe Eddard had bastards with two different women. 2) Darkstar is Prince Aegon (Martel Targ mix). Varys smuggled him to Doran who hid him with the Daynes...this explains why Doran claimed Darkstar was the most dangerous man in Dorne. Also works out better on the age issue, Aegon should be about a year older than Jon. 3) Darkstar and Jon are twins. Eddard and Ashara split them up so that if one was caught the other would still be safe. Eddard took the one with dark coloring North because he was less likely to draw suspicion, Ashara faked her death and took Gerold into hiding to raise as a cousin of the Daynes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howlin' Howland Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='SFDanny' post='1683835' date='Feb 11 2009, 23.35']I pushed that one a while ago as a variant on the "Aegon the Darkstar" theory. There are hints throughout the Arianne's description of Ser Gerold that he may have Targ connections. His coloring, his madness, etc. It goes like this, suppose Lyanna gives birth to two fraternal twins at the Tower of Joy. One takes after Lyanna (Jon) and the other takes after Rhaegar (Darkstar.) Where would Eddard hide such a child as young Ser Gerold? With a family with similar coloring, the Daynes, so as to cover the tracks of a Targaryen heir. There are hints that make one pause, but this is very definitely crackpot territory. Fun stuff, but needs to be handled with care and not taken in large doses. My guess, still on the crackpot side of things, is that its more likely if Ser Gerold is a secret Targ he comes from one of the passed over lines - the ones that were too nuts to be considered for the throne.[/quote] SF, I may have ripped you off on this theory. I read about the theory on this board about six months ago before my last reread. After I finished the Darkstar chapter in affc on my last reread I'm a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Howlin' Howland' post='1683838' date='Feb 11 2009, 23.37']coloring are Martel, Stark, and Greyjoy. With silver/violet are Dayne and Targ. 1) Eddard actually did have a bastard with Ashara, but not Jon. Ashara faked suicide and went into hiding because robert wouldn't believe Eddard had bastards with two different women. 2) Darkstar is Prince Aegon (Martel Targ mix). Varys smuggled him to Doran who hid him with the Daynes...this explains why Doran claimed Darkstar was the most dangerous man in Dorne. Also works out better on the age issue, Aegon should be about a year older than Jon. 3) Darkstar and Jon are twins. Eddard and Ashara split them up so that if one was caught the other would still be safe. Eddard took the one with dark coloring North because he was less likely to draw suspicion, Ashara faked her death and took Gerold into hiding to raise as a cousin of the Daynes."[/quote] 1. Nah. It negates everything we know about Ned, everything GRRM has taken such care to establish about this rigidly honorable man. Two affairs? Two women? Two bastard kids? It would make me so angry because it would be what I think of as a 'cheat,' an author that leads you deliberately a character's path only to suddenly do a u-turn and have the character perform totally out of context, totally unlike the personna that's been established for him. 2. hmmm... 3. hmmm...redux. Would explain Darkstar's 'remote' upbringing. Might also help explain why he tried to behead Myrcella. Interesting stuff, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakiki Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well, he's fun to hate, but I tend to give characters the benefit of the doubt in every case. If he turns out to be cool, then I'll just ignore the previous stuff (I treat Sansa this way). But for now, he's the most hilariously cheesy character in the series, and that he shall remain. :P By the way, I was the same as you, antisocial. I ignored Darkstar the first time I read the book, but then once I saw the hate thread, I had to hop on that hilarious bandwagon. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Howlin' Howland' post='1683844' date='Feb 11 2009, 23.43']SF, I may have ripped you off on this theory. I read about the theory on this board about six months ago before my last reread. After I finished the Darkstar chapter in affc on my last reread I'm a believer.[/quote] No, no, I can't claim I was the first to think up the idea of Jon having a twin. I know of at least one person who pushed the idea (against much mocking - the "Luke and Leia" kind of response) in the original L+R=J thread before I started posting here, and I'm sure that on other older boards the idea has been kicked around a time or two as well. As I said, while fun to think about, it is really on the crackpot side of things. Enough in the way of hints to pique the reader's interest, but far too little to support this actual theory. I do agree that Martin spends too much time on Ser Gerold Dayne to have him just disappear. While lots of folks like to ridicule his "I am the Darkstar" (always taken out of context) and the fact he doesn't actually kill Myrcella, he is poised to play a larger role in this story. It will be fun to watch, whatever develops for him, and I'm betting he turns into a much more interesting character in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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