Artanaro Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Kalbear' post='1684693' date='Feb 12 2009, 15.16']He's not called the most dangerous man because he's an asskicker; he's called it because he's a dick who also has access to power.[/quote] For the record, to be as big a dick as Dark Star appears to be (kills little girls), you would have to be pretty good with a sword, or else you'd get taken to the woodshed at an early age. There aren't many Gregor Cleganes, because you have to be one of the most deadly fighters in combat to survive being that big an ass. Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 iheartseverus, Those theories received a blow (I think a fatal one) when people asked George about how old Darkstar is, and George said (in the exasperated way he does when he gets one of these questions asked on ... err, on my behalf ;) that he had no idea whatsoever and that that's the sort of question he usually asks Linda and I for the answers to. :P Heh Which to me means that Darkstar's age is unimportant to the story, which wouldn't be the case if he were 17 (Jon's twin) or 18-19 (Aegon Targaryen). Someone will shortly disagree with me, I expect. But George doesn't lie to people. If he says he doesn't know, he means it -- it's just not something that matters with Darkstar, so his age is not a key plot detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1684713' date='Feb 12 2009, 16.30']iheartseverus, Those theories received a blow (I think a fatal one) when people asked George about how old Darkstar is, and George said (in the exasperated way he does when he gets one of these questions asked on ... err, on my behalf ;) that he had no idea whatsoever and that that's the sort of question he usually asks Linda and I for the answers to. :P Heh Which to me means that Darkstar's age is unimportant to the story, which wouldn't be the case if he were 17 (Jon's twin) or 18-19 (Aegon Targaryen). Someone will shortly disagree with me, I expect. But George doesn't lie to people. If he says he doesn't know, he means it -- it's just not something that matters with Darkstar, so his age is not a key plot detail.[/quote] Whew, well good, thanks. That not only puts my who's-your-Targ-daddy boy, Jon Snow, back in the running, but it also allows me to clear yet another parentage question aside. A girl gets boggled with all the theories of whose kids aren't really their parents kids, but other kids who are. :stunned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqen the FatManderly Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Artanaro' post='1684709' date='Feb 12 2009, 16.27']For the record, to be as big a dick as Dark Star appears to be (kills little girls), you would have to be pretty good with a sword, or else you'd get taken to the woodshed at an early age. There aren't many Gregor Cleganes, because you have to be one of the most deadly fighters in combat to survive being that big an ass. Artanaro[/quote] Aw, the whole "killing little girls" thing is unfair! [u][b]Actually Killed Children[/b][/u] - Very naughty bad men Ser Gregor Clegane Lord Tywin Lannister (gave the order) Ramsey Snow Hot Pie (though he later denies it) [u][b]Tried to Kill Children[/b][/u] - Misunderstood heroes Ser Jaime Lannister King Robert I Baratheon (gave the order) Ser Gerold Dayne (Okay, so I left off Joff & Lord Karstark & some others ....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 You provide wonderful a wonderful data set, Jaqen. There needs to be clarification though. Directing someone else to "kill a little girl" is not the same thing as doing it. This is a personality examination, and we are examining what kind of person can do it of their own volition. [quote name='Jaqen the FatManderly' post='1684734' date='Feb 12 2009, 15.44']Ramsey Snow[/quote] Good example, but I don't think he survives the year. He would be dead already, if he didn't change clothes with his friend. [quote name='Jaqen the FatManderly' post='1684734' date='Feb 12 2009, 15.44']Hot Pie (though he later denies it)[/quote] I don't recall this incident. Refresh my memory? [quote name='Jaqen the FatManderly' post='1684734' date='Feb 12 2009, 15.44']Ser Jaime Lannister[/quote] He was badass with a sword. [quote name='Jaqen the FatManderly' post='1684734' date='Feb 12 2009, 15.44'](Okay, so I left off Joff & Lord Karstark & some others ....)[/quote] Joffrey died a teenager. Lord Karstark lasted a few days after his deed. They clearly were lacking in the sword department. So it's looking like those who know how to handle the sword get away with it, and those who don't, die. Ramsey is the one outstanding variable, because we know neither how good at fighting he is, or how long he has to live. Here are some other examples, along the same lines, that speak for themselves. Amory Lorch Biter Rorge Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Artanaro' post='1684752' date='Feb 12 2009, 14.56']Here are some other examples, along the same lines, that speak for themselves. Amory Lorch Biter Rorge Artanaro[/quote] Arty, You've killed children??? Why? Now, correct me if I am wrong, but it is insinuated that Hot-Pie killed weasel so that he could escape... Is that the child in question? I doubt that Ser Hot-Pie would have done such a thing intentionally, but I could certainly see placing his hand over her mouth to silence her and leaving it there a bit too long. Those things happen. Now, in all fairness to Darkwing Dayne, it isn't as though he lost a sword fight to Myrcella... He just wasn't able to kill her. He did cut her pretty good though (damned near took her face off, actually... and there was a bit of chaos going on at the time... not to mention the fact that the sight of Areo Hotah had to be a bit intimidating/frightening... so... He might not actually suck as a swordsman... He might be the best Goth/Emo/Raver swordsman in all of Westeros... We just don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorianGR Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I don't get why they call Darkstar goth or emo. Elaborate please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='VorianGR' post='1684824' date='Feb 12 2009, 17.46']I don't get why they call Darkstar goth or emo. Elaborate please.[/quote] I'm glad you asked, Vorian. Because I don't get it either! But I just figured that's because I'm old and don't even understand what they're talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alguien Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Wait, Hot Pie killed Weasel!?! Could someone quote the text where this is implied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 No, Hot Pie did not kill Weasel, nor is it implied anywhere. What's being referred to is this: [quote]"You better give Hot Pie the sword, Arry," Lommy said. "Hot Pie wants it bad. He kicked a boy to death. He'll do the same to you, I bet." "I knocked him down and I kicked him in the balls, and I kept kicking him there until he was dead," Hot Pie boasted. "I kicked him all to pieces. His balls were broke open and bloody and his cock turned black. You better gimme the sword."[/quote] I think it's pretty obvious that Hot Pie never killed anyone in his life. He may once have kicked some boy in the balls, but the tale grew in the telling. He was boasting and trying to make himself seem tough in a scary situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote]I don't get why they call Darkstar goth or emo. Elaborate please.[/quote]An overly dramatic young man with a streak in his hair who likes to kill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alguien Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1684840' date='Feb 12 2009, 18.55']No, Hot Pie did not kill Weasel, nor is it implied anywhere. What's being referred to is this: I think it's pretty obvious that Hot Pie never killed anyone in his life. He may once have kicked some boy in the balls, but the tale grew in the telling. He was boasting and trying to make himself seem tough in a scary situation.[/quote] Ah. Charming. Yeah, I recall the incident, and figured he was most likely lying about the death aspect of the story. As for Darkstar... I don't mind him. Every fantasy world should have at least one brooding, over-the-top, Byronic-esque killer. With great hair. Sort of like Uncle Jesse from Full House if he tried to slice the top of Michelle's head off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I don't think he's all that young, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Jaqen the FatManderly' post='1684734' date='Feb 12 2009, 15.44']Aw, the whole "killing little girls" thing is unfair! [u][b]Actually Killed Children[/b][/u] - Very naughty bad men Ser Gregor Clegane Lord Tywin Lannister (gave the order) Ramsey Snow Hot Pie (though he later denies it) [u][b]Tried to Kill Children[/b][/u] - Misunderstood heroes Ser Jaime Lannister King Robert I Baratheon (gave the order) Ser Gerold Dayne (Okay, so I left off Joff & Lord Karstark & some others ....)[/quote] You left The Hound off of the list of those who actually killed children. [quote name='VorianGR' post='1684824' date='Feb 12 2009, 16.46']I don't get why they call Darkstar goth or emo. Elaborate please.[/quote] Dorkstar is goth or emo due to his coming across like he should be more respected than he is. He has to put down Ser Arthur Dayne and style himself to be his opposite to make himself feel better or cooler. He basically says The Sword of the Morning was only great because he had the sword Dawn. Face it, Dorkstar feels sorry for himself and that the world owes him recognition that he, of course, hasn't earned. That's my take on it, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='DarkCrawler' post='1684625' date='Feb 12 2009, 21.32']...I always thought "I am of the [b]Night[/b]" was just an ironic throw by an annoyed Darkstar, with peopel constantly bringing up "Sword of the [b]Morning[/b]". I don't think he meant it in "look at me, I'm totally badass" sense. It never annoyed me, I thought it was pretty funny actually.[/quote] same here... [quote name='Ran' post='1684713' date='Feb 12 2009, 22.30']it's just not something that matters with Darkstar, so[b] his age is not a key plot detail.[/b][/quote] which doesn't have to mean that it won't become one, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumarumo Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Eh, personally I've always liked Darkstar as a character, and thought he was interesting. As a character, mind: he wouldn't be the type of fella I'd like to have a pint with (childkillers are a no no). My reasoning is this: He's a member of one of the most badass houses of Westeros. He seems like the type who had aspired to be a great knight blahblahblah when he was younger (a la Bran), but being from a lesser branch of the house, he found himself living in the shadow of a famous and feared/honoured/respected relative. This probably tainted the idea in his mind, embittering him. I just think he's a conflicted character, and those are the most interesting kind. As for the problems people have with him...well, being over-dramatic, for one. I think this is something that can be seen in a lot of GRRM's younger characters. We see it in Robb when he's reciting his terms to Cleos Frey in ACoK, bared sword on his lap and Grey Wind snarling. Jon is guilty of it too, at times, though much less so, I think. Oh, and as for the martial skill: I'm pretty sure that Arianne has a thought concerning the victor if Ser Arys and Darkstar were ever to fight. She thinks something along the lines of the KG being the greatest knights in the realms, but that "Darkstar was Darkstar". Got nothing on the hair dye, I just can't justify that :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 baxus, [quote]which doesn't have to mean that it won't become one, does it?[/quote] Given George being the writer that he is, yes, it does have to mean that. He's not going to envision the character of being of unexceptional age, and then deciding two books after his introduction, "You know, I'm going to say he's 18 and make him Jon's twin brother." Or are you referring to something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israfel070 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Jaqen the FatManderly' post='1684734' date='Feb 12 2009, 13.44']Aw, the whole "killing little girls" thing is unfair! [u][b]Actually Killed Children[/b][/u] - Very naughty bad men Ser Gregor Clegane Lord Tywin Lannister (gave the order) Ramsey Snow Hot Pie (though he later denies it) [u][b]Tried to Kill Children[/b][/u] - Misunderstood heroes Ser Jaime Lannister King Robert I Baratheon (gave the order) Ser Gerold Dayne (Okay, so I left off Joff & Lord Karstark & some others ....)[/quote] Ok I massively disagree with distinguishing people's character based on whether their plans succeed. One the one list, Jaime clearly stated that he intended for Bran to die when he THREW him off a castle TOWER. On the other list... Hot Pie??? Ther was no intent to kill, he just wanted to get his grubby paws on the Shiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1684786' date='Feb 12 2009, 16.20']Arty, You've killed children??? Why?[/quote] :lol: Touche. Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='israfel070' post='1684881' date='Feb 12 2009, 17.21']Ok I massively disagree with distinguishing people's character based on whether their plans succeed.[/quote] I didn't realize it, but that is a very interesting point. Would people's opinion of Darkstar change (for better or worse) if he had succeeded in killing Myrcella? Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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