World Building

[Jon AS]

I consider Bakker's worldbuilding to be quite good. For one thing, as Jacen said, he is very good at sprinkling bits of Eärwa's complex history into the story, giving the world a sense of depth. There is also a sense of progress to the history: the Ancient North was technologically inferior to the current, medieval Three Seas cultures. He may not go into details about which trade routes are particularly important, but we know that the Ainoni are the most active traders in the Three Seas, that the most priced silk and steel come from Zeüm etc. In short, I think there is a sense that the world "works".

[Shryke]

[quote name='Galactus' post='1696862' date='Feb 23 2009, 16.01']Lynch... I can't recall much of Lynch's world-building, although it seemed decent enough. Nothing jarring. (there were mentions of trade and the sense that at least people did make a living when they weren't engaged in Plot, which is the, not particularly high, bar I've set)

Not read Abercrombie.

Bakker's main issue is that there is NO sense of what people do with their lives. No sense of *the ordinary* at all. You get the feeling that things are either unrelenting horror or the occasional bit of heroism. You barely know what people eat or drink, and nothing about how these things come to be there. (at least in TLOLL there are mentions of expensive brandy and where it is imported from)[/quote]

Then I'm gonna ask the same question I did in the other thread about trade routes.

When was this gonna come up in any of these narratives?

I mean, most people don't care for a page long digression on the economic viability of the small town the main character is currently galloping past.

I assume people in Bakker or Lynch or GRRM or whomever's world still farm for food, trade for supplies and fuck for pleasure unless we've been told otherwise.

[Galactus]

[quote]I consider Bakker's worldbuilding to be quite good.[/quote]

I consider it to be well.... Mediocre. It has it's good parts (Ajencis is neat) and it's bad parts, but it doesen't really stand out either way. I mean, it's certainly not Goodkind levels of bad.

[quote]hen I'm gonna ask the same question I did in the other thread about trade routes.

When was this gonna come up in any of these narratives?

I mean, most people don't care for a page long digression on the economic viability of the small town the main character is currently galloping past.

I assume people in Bakker or Lynch or GRRM or whomever's world still farm for food, trade for supplies and fuck for pleasure unless we've been told otherwise.[/quote]

It's going to come up whenever you look at a piece of fabric or consider prices or eat food.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Galactus' post='1696877' date='Feb 23 2009, 16.10']It's going to come up whenever you look at a piece of fabric or consider prices or eat food.[/quote]

I know I always wonder where my cereal comes from.

Which town? Does it travel by train or by truck? Which farms made the grain that goes into it?


No, wait, I don't. I just put milk on it and eat.

[Galactus]

[quote]I know I always wonder where my cereal comes from.[/quote]

You don't think about these things?

[Ran]

Shryke,

We live in a world where less than 1% of the population feeds the other 99% of the population. You are far more removed from the source of your next meal than pre-modern people were.

[Arlingzen Bill]

I think L.E. Modessit is one of the better world builders. I have read the Recluce books in two orders. I read all of the books in order of publication and also in chronological order. Each novel hints at events in the past, those hints are then flushed out into full stories. The economics are considered, taxes and trade have impacts and raising tariffs has consequences.

In his new series, [i]Imager[/i] there is magic that can create things from its most basic elements. The magic is heavily regulated to prevent the destruction of the economy by those skilled in imaging.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ran' post='1696886' date='Feb 23 2009, 16.17']Shryke,

We live in a world where less than 1% of the population feeds the other 99% of the population. You are far more removed from the source of your next meal than pre-modern people were.[/quote]

I'm still not seeing Joe the Poorish Merchant sitting down to his afternoon meal and thinking about which trade route the shirt he's wearing came along.

[Kalbear]

Shryke, think about (for example) how many times you know in martin's book where wine comes from that the characters are drinking. Or where the peach Renly eats comes from. Or where lemons come from. Or why KL is starving, and where the food comes from. Or where crabs come from when they're served at KL.

How much did Martin really devote to these things? But we know of them anyway.

In that respect, trade was like branding is here. In the old world, exotic places were hugely far away. Saying some wine came from the Arbor or from the Marches was something to be proud of. It's fairly natural. And in the real world, things like spices were hugely important to the way the world developed. The role of salt alone...

It's just a little detail, but it informs a lot of the world.

[Happy Ent]

Some quotes:

Leweth: ““Every year a caravan from the south arrives in Atrithau—if it survives the
Sranc, that is. It travels from a land called Galeoth by way of Sakarpus, bringing
spices, silks—wondrous things, Kellhus! Have you ever tasted pepper?”

The Shria: “And yet we sign treaties with the Fanim; we buy silk
and turquoise that have passed through their unclean hands. We trade gold for
horses and slaves bred in their venal stables.”

As a result, the Mandate knew very little of Atrithau, only what could be
gleaned from the traders who managed to survive the great circuit from Atrithau to
Galeoth.

Positioned on the great land route linking the nations south of the Carathay to Shigek and Nansur, Caraskand was an ancient and strategic way station. All those goods that merchants were loath to trust to the capricious seas—Zeumi silks, the cinnamon, pepper, and magnificent tapestries of Nilnamesh, Galeoth wool and fine Nansur wine—passed through the great bazaars of Caraskand, and had done so for thousands of years.

I’m sure there are more.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Galactus']I consider it to be well.... Mediocre.[/quote]

So, um, what about the points I tentatively raised? It's not like the stuff you want doesn't come up at all, how much more do you need, and where in the story do you think it should have been mentioned?

[Slurktan]

To me world-building isn't just about the nations, societies, economies, etc. it is also about the actual world. While things like trade routes and languages and battle plans are all well and good what about the world itself? ASOIAF is an easy example where that side of things is completely ignored with the whole seasonal thing. Most don't even explore the world enough.

I've found that most novels and series (and back histories thereof) don't really get into that sort of thing. But that's the reason why I revere Tolkien's worldbuilding so much. He does get into that. You can get the feeling that he has seen in his mind's eye every crook and dell, every hilltop and valley(Thankfully much of it has been written down in one form or another) etc, etc. There is no one I've read that even comes remotely close.

No Tolkien doesn't get much into economics (trade routes between whom exactly?) but makes up for it in so many other areas.

[Jaqen the FatManderly]

[quote name='Galactus' post='1696751' date='Feb 23 2009, 15.09']And for that, i feel I need a functioning economy. Not neccessarily that the author DESCRIBES it, but I need to feel that it is there, in the background, doing it's stuff. Tolkien never gives me the feeling that he's actually considered how anything in his world would *work*. Martin has issues himself, but I think he manages it cleverly by simply stealing from medieval societies...[/quote]
In general, most people have no idea how [b]any [/b]economy works. I'm moderately well-informed on that score, but in literature I'd rather remain blissfully ignorant about it. I've had Henry Hazlitt in my own bookcase for a decade and haven't cared enough to peek inside!

My favorite fictional economic account may be Joseph Conrad spending a chapter going off on rivets. Now that's a real world supply problem :tantrum:

Tolkien talks about trade from time to time, most famously when Lotho starts exporting pipe weed and other goods, and also, for example, the logistics problems before and after the Battle of Five Armies. Good literature is the goal; appendices are fine for Tolkien's language development and other details of depth, and economics didn't seem to be an area he wanted to explore further.

It will be interesting to see how Martin handles a long winter. What he has described so far has the makings of a pretty decent famine.

[Kalbear]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1696898' date='Feb 23 2009, 13.23']Some quotes:

Leweth: ““Every year a caravan from the south arrives in Atrithau�"if it survives the
Sranc, that is. It travels from a land called Galeoth by way of Sakarpus, bringing
spices, silks�"wondrous things, Kellhus! Have you ever tasted pepper?”

The Shria: “And yet we sign treaties with the Fanim; we buy silk
and turquoise that have passed through their unclean hands. We trade gold for
horses and slaves bred in their venal stables.”

As a result, the Mandate knew very little of Atrithau, only what could be
gleaned from the traders who managed to survive the great circuit from Atrithau to
Galeoth.

Positioned on the great land route linking the nations south of the Carathay to Shigek and Nansur, Caraskand was an ancient and strategic way station. All those goods that merchants were loath to trust to the capricious seas�"Zeumi silks, the cinnamon, pepper, and magnificent tapestries of Nilnamesh, Galeoth wool and fine Nansur wine�"passed through the great bazaars of Caraskand, and had done so for thousands of years.

I’m sure there are more.[/quote]

Those are all from the first book, right? That's what I remember at least. That's my favorite book, and very much because of details like this. It's something that I feel is removed in future books.

[Arthmail]

I agree with Galactus, but im a history minor. Trade adds the flavour. It was driven home in a roman history class when my otherwise kick ass midterm essay lost marks for not including corn as a factor in the fall of Rome. Corn.

And in many medieval socities, the more exotic the item/purchase they had made the better, at least for the nobility. These are people that constantly try to bring back the next big exotic purchase, lions, elephants, gems, what have you. It was important to them, and easy as shit to fit into the narrative.

Noble #1: "This is really quite good brandy.Isn't this milk from a dragons teat?"
Noble #2: "Yes. I have a chap that brings it along the Dukotthi trade route when the local tribes are too busy killing each other."
Noble #1:"That must be dreadfully expensive."
Noble #2:"Quit."

Real rough example here, but you get the point. Now, in a mass consumer market like what we have today, we often have no idea where our goods come from. But if you do have something unique, like something from Ten Thousand Villages, you will often mention....oh yea, this sweater was knit in Nepal. Etc. In medieval socities, anything beyond your kingdom would have something of an exotic feel to it, especially if it was something that was currently in vogue.

Bakker's world building is decent. His religious work i find very impressive, but as i have said before, he has a ready template. It is hard for me to say honesstly at this point, because i feel like many of his socities bleed together. We will see what the reread brings.

Personally, when looking at fictional world, i like to see it work, to see it breathe. Martin is good, probably the best out there, to be honest. I love Abercrombie in so many ways, but a living world....hes more like Gemmell. More about the story and less about the world.

[Arthmail]

Oh yea, and in regards to Tolkien, he wasn't going for a realistic world so much as a mythic history of GB. The last time i read Beowulf, they didn't much talk about trade routes.

He had a completely different reason for creating his world the way he did. But as for what he was trying to achieve, his world building was epic.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1696760' date='Feb 23 2009, 15.17']This is a failing in Bakker's world. The use of magic is entirely for war and war alone. It's partially cultural, but it's also an oversight I think. While Maia brought up some points in how it could be used that I don't think were entirely valid, [b]I think a lot of them were, especially things like mining and roadbuilding.[/b][/quote]Those were also the ones I debunked for sorcerer wages vs. cheap slave labor wages as well as the probable intellectual debasement such jobs would be for sorcerers.

[quote name='Galactus' post='1696832' date='Feb 23 2009, 15.45']I'd consider both WoT, ASOIAF, and even Farseer or Soldier's Son to have better worldbuilding than Bakker.[/quote]I wouldn't because I thought that there were some things that Bakker paid attention to in his world building that are generally neglected or done rather poorly - namely religion. I think that with Bakker, since he was operating in the narrative framework of the 1st Crusade, developing the economic mechanics of his world was not exactly a chief concern. But with ASOIAF, GRRM clearly wanted to create an accurate (or at least more accurate) representation of a feudal society than is usually presented in most fantasy stories.

[Jacen]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1696882' date='Feb 23 2009, 15.14']I know I always wonder where my cereal comes from.

Which town? Does it travel by train or by truck? Which farms made the grain that goes into it?


No, wait, I don't. I just put milk on it and eat.[/quote]


Well, taking Ran's point about how precious food was in these societies (which IS a great point), I still mostly agree with Shryke. I don't really care or need to know about that stuff in detail. In Martin world and Bakker world, the backdrop seems sufficient and plausible enough to me that I don't need to know everything about food production and the economies, I just can kinda assume how things work. I assume in the Three seas they have coastal roads and shipping networks throughout the area and they import and export things from far away such as Zeum and Cingulat, etc. I don't need much more than that.

And, let's face it, in most fantasy books we are not reading about the life of some peasant grubbing it out in the field. We are reading about the ELITES of society- usually they are some Prince, noble, or mighty Wizard etc.. Those people don't worry as much about where their food is coming from, right?

It does get more ridiculous the more dangerous and D&D the setting is. In some fantasy settings it's hard to believe anybody could survive, let alone trade with each other. In alot of this "light" fantasy, I just can't picture merchants journeying through the Forest of Pain, crossing the Sea of Doom and skirting around the Lake of Fire all to deliver somebody trade goods.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Jacen' post='1696966' date='Feb 23 2009, 17.18']Well, taking Ran's point about how precious food was in these societies (which IS a great point), I still mostly agree with Shryke. I don't really care or need to know about that stuff in detail. In Martin world and Bakker world, the backdrop seems sufficient and plausible enough to me that I don't need to know everything about food production and the economies, I just can kinda assume how things work. I assume in the Three seas they have coastal roads and shipping networks throughout the area and they import and export things from far away such as Zeum and Cingulat, etc. I don't need much more than that.

And, let's face it, in most fantasy books we are not reading about the life of some peasant grubbing it out in the field. We are reading about the ELITES of society- usually they are some Prince, noble, or mighty Wizard etc.. [b]Those people don't worry as much about where their food is coming from, right?[/b]

It does get more ridiculous the more dangerous and D&D the setting is. In some fantasy settings it's hard to believe anybody could survive, let alone trade with each other. In alot of this "light" fantasy, I just can't picture merchants journeying through the Forest of Pain, crossing the Sea of Doom and skirting around the Lake of Fire all to deliver somebody trade goods.[/quote]You probably should have left that unsaid, because now you are going to get a boring lecture from Galactus and Ran about why they did, and the rest of the thread will have to suffer reading through their love affairs with trade routes.

[gyrehead]

I love great worldbuilding. But the author has to integrate it into the story itself. Otherwise it is just info dumping. Or worse. A fatuous exercise on the author's part showing how cool the results of hours and hours taking one letter out of Tolkien's Elvish names to make his own are. Developing a fascinating and workable system of cultures and societies is hardly easy. Adding plausibility raises the stakes even more. Sort of like going from a 6.0 earthquake to a 7.0 earthquake. One more element but a huge jump in talent to pull it off.

Introducing various elements has to be show, not tell. And it has to be done in a way that the character would process it. If a character always uses a Boo-janga flower's floss to wipe his ass after taking a dump, the author has to give me that information in a way that the character and the story can work on. Not just have the character ruminate on the soft but resiliant joys of the Boo-janga flower's floss to show us how complex and detailed the "created" world is the author is proferring up to us. Stopping to reflect on the mundane and the everyday just to show off the author's cleverness (or lack thereof) is what throw me out of the story. Not wondering what special word for "beef" Bakker can use for what's for dinner.

Bakker is one of the greats for me in worldbuilding because he doesn't fall prey for the need to translate horse into three toed Wallawalla. He doesn't stop and tell us in contrived and plot stalling info dumps stuff that the characters would never paused and reflect on in the situations he has placed them in.

As for the trade aspect? I think it is realistic seeing as how we deal with the military landed warrior class. If you want realism just look at how many merchants were marrying their daughters to the French and English nobles in the 11th, 12th and 13th century. Heck even Catherine de Medici was scorned as a "banker's" daughter when she married Henri II of France.

I don't see anything in Bakker's cultures that seems so far fetched from what is "real" in the areas of trade or class stratification to not work in the paradigm he puts forth. In our own history there were many great nobles of Europe and of Asia that didn't give a crap about where things came from or how. That was what servants and merchants (who were not too much higher up the ladder in terms of power and social impact in the early middle ages after all) were for. Making sure the guy with all the swords got the good stuff coming into his castle. There might have been an interest of origin. But there wasn't a huge interest in agarian feudal societies as to the intricacies of, say, how much gold and fish sauce from the Mediterranean region it took to bring back the silk for John of Gaunt's tights. In fact it is doubtful much thought went into the even more immediate matters of how many fleeces of wool one of his properties had to produce each year to make sure he could get that cool tapestry to hide the scorch marks over the fireplace.