Flashbacks

[Checkered Knight]

I thought i saw this thread awhile back but im not sure where it got to.

Anyways, i think that as far as the series goes it will be much easier to tell the story, and events previous, with flashbacks and/or dream sequences. One scene in all the books that i am dying to see come to life is the Tower of Joy scene, especially with all the debate around it. The only way this scene can be shown is if it is one of Ned's dreams.

I also feel like itll be easier for those who havent read the books to understand Robert's Rebellion and other past events better through flashbacks. There are even some events in the book that arent explained once they happen and are referred to in the past tense.

Just a thought that i had. I dont think they would need to be cheesy and i feel like a lot of the really awesome moments of Westeros history have taken place in the past: The Trident, Tower Of Joy, Storming of Pyke, Harrenhal Tournament, etc.

[Frank Stark]

The ToJ seems pretty likely to be included, especially the confrontation outside and perhaps Lyanna exacting Ned's promise (though obviously only with the lines "Promise me" and the "I promise" response). Maybe show Robert and Rhaegar fighting, during a moment of Robert's reflection/anti-Targ rant. Bits of the Harrenhal Tournament are obviously parts of several characters' memories. The storming of Pyke and the full blown Battle of the Trident, while they could be cool looking, don't have to be shown and I wouldn't expect them to be.

[TheEvilKing]

So much of the story is based on events that happened in the past that I think flashbacks will be needed. It'd require some super compelling acting for it to work with characters just talking about stuff that happened. I could be proved wrong, though. And flashbacks might be hard to pull off well.

I guess the first one would be when Ned is talking to Robert in Winterfell about walking into the Red Keep to find Jaime on the Iron Throne. That scene could work well as a flashback, and would give us history and context for Lannister/Stark tension (and in particular Jaime/Ned tension).

ETA: The Tower of Joy scene in AGoT isn't a flashback, it's a dream and should be shown as such - all dreamy and vague and unreal, so we're not too sure what's happeneing. To show it straight up would probably spoil not just the TV series, but the books as well.

[Brude]

One thing I have always wondered is, will most if not all of the flashbacks for the series (at least the first 3-4 seasons) be shot at once? This could be important as far as keeping actors used for these scenes, who may age or change (assuming a younger, thinner man is used to play young Robert). It may be a necessity, and it will also add some cost to the first season production (but reduce those for later seasons). I'm sure this is something that has come up in production meetings and I don't know what the best solution will be, to be honest. It may be that it's okay to shoot them as needed, but I'm not sure.

It wouldn't surprise me if stuff even were scripted and shot that have not appeared in the novels yet, but are necessary for flashbacks in novels to come. This is stuff GRRM would obviously need to help them with - story-wise and maybe even script-wise, so that it matches what he presents later in the series. I have a feeling there will be more to see of the Tower of Joy scene in later books - more answers told in flashback, or at least in enough detail that cinematically they will work better as flashbacks when rendered for the screen.

There are some big scenes that will need to be done in flashback: Battle of the Trident, the Tourney at Harrenhall during the False Spring and then the Tower of Joy are the main ones. We might see Jaime and Mad Aerys during the Sack of King's Landing and the stormwracked birth of Danaerys on Dragonstone, too.

[Sandor's Lady]

One thing I have always wondered is, will most if not all of the flashbacks for the series (at least the first 3-4 seasons) be shot at once?

....

It wouldn't surprise me if stuff even were scripted and shot that have not appeared in the novels yet, but are necessary for flashbacks in novels to come. too.

This is something I'm personally torn about.

First of all, in the interest of continuity, I'd want to see everything that we know about from the 1st 4 books - both flashbacks and dream/memories - shot at the same time. I think that this would be better for continuity - the actress playing Lyanna, and the actors playing young Robert, young Jaime, and Rhaegar need to look pretty much the same. Not shooting them together, or around the same time, would lead to what we got in some of the harry Potter films, where we had different people playing Harry's parents (or if they were the same people, they looked a lot different!) in different flashbacks.

But, all that said, I really don't like the idea of filming "unreleased flashbacks" (say, the actual battle at the ToJ) that we won't see 'til later seasons. What if Martin changes his mind and scraps the scene or goes in a different direction? Then you've got all the time and effort that was put into it by the actors, director and designers, film crew, etc - literally hours, not to mention the financial implication. I'm not sure how royalties work in Britain (or even how this sort of thing would work since the most recent Writers' Strike here in the States), but say you have actors (or writers, or directors) A, B, and C who have signed a contract when they began shooting that they get X amount of money for the hours they put in now, and then Y amount in royalties once the scenes they've filmed are aired. If the scenes are filmed based on what Martin's written - but not published - now, but have to be scrapped based on what he publishes later, you're gonna wind up with a lot of really unhappy artists.

I honestly think that filming anything that hasn't been published is going to open a huge can of worms. But, on the plus side, I don't think that 1. the producers are going to even want to consider filming something that far out (I mean, honestly we're probably looking at more than 5 years before Season5/Dance with Dragons hits TV), especially since the pilot hasn't been filmed yet, and the series as a whole has yet to be green-lit, or 2. that Martin himself would either allow unpublished material to be filmed at all (you know it would get leaked to the internet on someone's cell phone camera), or get himself into a situation where he would be boxed in by scenes that have been filmed prior to publishing.

...

So, if you're still reading, those are my thoughts :thumbsup:

[The hairy bear]

So, if you're still reading, those are my thoughts :thumbsup:

I completely agree with you. I would dread to get knowledge of some misteries of the series through a leaking in the series. How terribly inappropiate!

There are some big scenes that will need to be done in flashback: Battle of the Trident, the Tourney at Harrenhall during the False Spring and then the Tower of Joy are the main ones.

Let's face it: to see those scenes would be absolutely cool, but it's not needed. All the viewers need to know about the Trident is that there was a great battle and Rhaegar died. Very easy to explain thorugh dialogue, no need for a (very expensive) flashback.

[Padraig]

Let's face it: to see those scenes would be absolutely cool, but it's not needed. All the viewers need to know about the Trident is that there was a great battle and Rhaegar died. Very easy to explain thorugh dialogue, no need for a (very expensive) flashback.

I agree. Any battle/fight scene can be skipped. Even the Tower of Joy can be skipped, even if its an incredible scene.

IMO the Jaime related scenes are the only ones actually useful because they tell us a lot about the story.

[Silverstar]

Let's face it: to see those scenes would be absolutely cool, but it's not needed. All the viewers need to know about the Trident is that there was a great battle and Rhaegar died. Very easy to explain thorugh dialogue, no need for a (very expensive) flashback.

I'd love to see the Tower of Joy scene, and it shouldn't be too hard to film, I shouldn't think. The majority of it is a conversation between Ned and the Kingsguard, then you get "No, now it ends", you see them rush towards each other, swords raised, and then Ned wakes up. You don't even need to show the actual fight. In fact, you can't show the actual fight, because we have no clue how Howland Reed saved Ned, and that could be a huge plot point in later books.

[Brude]

Let's face it: to see those scenes would be absolutely cool, but it's not needed. All the viewers need to know about the Trident is that there was a great battle and Rhaegar died. Very easy to explain thorugh dialogue, no need for a (very expensive) flashback.

Honestly, I think the sight of Rhaegar crumbling to his knees - especially as it is seen in vision by Dany, I believe, is a key image for the series. You don't need to show much of the battle, the whole thing can be covered in about 10 seconds of images. But to see the men and horses fighting in the river, Robert's hammer crushing in Rhaegar's chest plate and him going down, with the rubies spilling into the river...cinematically and in terms of how to tell a story visually, they'd be foolish not to spend a bit extra for that. It would be an image that reoccures a few times, I think, so they'd get a lot out of it.

It's a visual medium and if you don't actually SEE these key events in the story, they are rendered as far less important in the minds of the viewers. They become something that will get forgotten. But if you want to make sure they are remembered as clues to the future, to what is really going on in the story, they absolutely MUST be shown on screen. Film/TV is a different medium than a book and what is only talked about isn't remembered as readily - it isn't as important to the viewer as things they actually see.

[Matarreyes]

There is one scene (extended version of Jaime/Aerys that would incluse some other aspects of King´s Landing fall) that can have huge payoff in flashbacks, because it shows several secrets and is accounted several times with different consecuences through the books. The 5-or-less minutes of this flashback can be filmed at once, cut into tiny bits and used in almost every season:

- the overall mayhem with the Red Keep in the background can be used wherever the show needs to dwell on the past and the rebellion

- it´ll illustrate the initial Jaime/Ned conflict in book 1,

- idem with the Riverrun Catelyn conversation (they can certainly mix some burning scene in there to introduce the pyromancers),

- all of Jaime book 3 revelations about his kingslaying reasons

- AND it can be used as a part of Daenerys house of Undying vision (giving the scene some very cool continuity)

- AND it perfectly sets the mood for the whole theme of madness of the Targaryens (because one thing is to hear talks about "Mad Aerys", and other is to see a disgusting, crazy, unkempt old man on the Iron Throne). This worry is becoming more and more important in the books for Daenerys.

- IF baby Aegon´s ever becoming important, this bit can be shown here. Same for Elia/Gregor/Red Viper´s rage/

The Harrenhall tourney has the same flavour to it, but the scenes are far less epic: - Lyanna/Rhaegar meeting and Jaime´s white cloak

Scenes like the Trident and the Tower of Joy are cool on their own, but can only be used once and won´t help advance the overall plot? Well, TOJ will help create and promote the L+R=J theory among TV viewers, who may not see the possibility at all otherwise.

[crunchb3rry]

They should just do all flashbacks in black & white. And dream sequences (Bran's crow dreams, Dany's visions) done in fuzzy "soap opera" style with a vignette. Visual cues that the story is going into the past or into a person's subconscious. But different enough so you know which is a flashback and which is a dream.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Oh they have to include the Jaime/Aerys/Eddard scenes. In particular when Ned finds Jaime seated on the iron throne, basking in his glory. That would be such great tv, and its also important to the plot.

Flashbacks ARE important (though not on a LOST scale obviously).

[Brude]

Oh they have to include the Jaime/Aerys/Eddard scenes. In particular when Ned finds Jaime seated on the iron throne, basking in his glory. That would be such great tv, and its also important to the plot.

I never took it as Jaime 'basking in his glory,' though I think that was maybe how Ned saw it. Didn't Jaime suggest that it was the only chair in the room, so that's where he sat cause it was a long, tiring day's worth of kingslaying, or whatever? I've just started re-reading ASOS, so I'll have to look out for that moment again, if it's in there.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I never took it as Jaime 'basking in his glory,' though I think that was maybe how Ned saw it. Didn't Jaime suggest that it was the only chair in the room, so that's where he sat cause it was a long, tiring day's worth of kingslaying, or whatever? I've just started re-reading ASOS, so I'll have to look out for that moment again, if it's in there.

Yes, i'd imagine the flashback to be from Eddard's perspective (we dont get much jaime pov time in the first season). Personally, the chair doesnt sound very comfortable. I doubt Jaime used it to rest up no matter what he seems to think. :P

[TrueMetis]

he might have jaime was in full armour meaning the chair wouldn't have been able to stab him unless someone threw him into it... now wouldn't that make a pretty picture

[About Yea High]

The leaked script also has Ned saying Jaime killed Aerys with a spear. Coulda sworn he did it with his sword. (I'm remote and don't have my usual resources with me - i.e., all four novels sitting next to my desk)