Lev Grossman, The Magicians trilogy (spoiler tags used for third book, The Magician's Land)

[Sci-2]

Admittedly I didn't finish it, ended up skipping around a lot - yeah, nothing happens but I liked the writing style and I think it is enjoyable enough if you aren't reading it on its own.

Anyway I liked the parts I read well enough to give Grossman another shot. Might be I finish his sequel and Wise Man's Fear before I finish either of the first books.

The second book, however, needs the characters - especially Quentin - to change, or at least grasp the hope of change and have it swept out from under them. But really, tragedies are better as single volumes - the sequel will hopefully have positive character growth.

[jdiddyesquire]

I just finished The Magician King, Grossman's sequel to Magicians. Totally a reconstruction of the deconstruction he started in the first novel. Really looking forward to discussing this when people get finished with it.

Some of my thoughts with a linky to the whole thing:

http://staffersmusings.blogspot.com/2011/07/magician-king-lev-grossman.html

In many ways I think Magician King is the novel Magicians detractors wanted to read. It doesn't have near the level of nihilism or self-loathing that's so present in the first novel. Nor is it full of the boredom and minutia of learning magic at Brakesbills. What results is something far more akin to the standard fantasy novel - there's a quest, a wrench gets thrown into it, and then ultimately the quest is resolved. Characters undergo change and demonstrate growth concluding with some measure of closure for all of them. What survives from the first novel is Grossman's tremendous prose, clever integration of modern culture, and warm vulnerable characters.

Contrasting that throughout are Quentin's points of view from the present where he continues to lack direction or the ability to properly produce serotonin. For a deconstruction to work (I'm coming back to it now), at least as I'm applying the term here, the disparate pieces that were exposed in Magicians have to ultimately come back together into a recognizable shape. Otherwise, what's the point? Through Julia and her growth as a character, Grossman pulls Quentin along by his bootstraps providing a completed arc that is recognizable as a young adult fantasy (again, there is an irony here given Quentin is closer to 25 than 15).

Now if that's all Magician King had going for it, it might be a successful bookend to Magicians, but it would be a pretty boring read. Beyond the main story arc Grossman delves into cultural mythology frequently paying homage to and poking a little fun at European legend. Many called Magicians Harry Potter for adults. The comparison is hardly accurate, but if it were then this part of Magician King might be American Gods for teenagers. Overlaying the themes of mythology and de/reconstructed YA fantasy, is the edge Grossman gives to everything he writes. Removing all of the novels undertones, Grossman still leaves his readers with an adventure romp that can be enjoyed purely on surface value alone.

The truth is, the sequel is just as good Magicians. For many it will be a more rewarding read and it would not surprise me if many who were turned off by the first novel will find a lot more to like in The Magician King. But to me it doesn't approach The Magicians in its audacity to challenge readers.

[Branna]

I just finished The Magician King, Grossman's sequel to Magicians. Totally a reconstruction of the deconstruction he started in the first novel. Really looking forward to discussing this when people get finished with it.

Some of my thoughts with a linky to the whole thing:

http://staffersmusings.blogspot.com/2011/07/magician-king-lev-grossman.html

I thought The Magician King was great...

I was really just glad there was a damned sequel. Not sure why, but when I read the first book I loved it until the end because I thought it was a standalone. So got ahold of the Magician King and gobbled it up over the last two days.

I will definitely read anything this author puts out. His writing style is so vivid and humorous.

[Larry.]

Finally got around to writing a formal review of The Magician King. The more I think about it, the more I liked what Grossman achieved here, plus it served to make me think even more fondly of the first volume. Looking forward to the third and presumably final chapter.

[jdiddyesquire]

Finally got around to writing a formal review of The Magician King. The more I think about it, the more I liked what Grossman achieved here, plus it served to make me think even more fondly of the first volume. Looking forward to the third and presumably final chapter.

This is what I find sort of hilarious about the whole thing - I didn't think Magicians needed a sequel nor do I think Magician King needs one, but somehow I imagine Grossman will write one and I'll be impressed with how it all works together.

[Lupigis]

I just read The Magician King. I enjoyed it, but nowhere near as much as The Magicians.

To me, much of the attraction with the first book was a sense of tension, created by different contrasts in the book as well as by the plot. There was the contrast between the magic that Quentin was learning and the mundanity of the the surrounding life on Earth. Then there was the contrast between Quentin's sometimes unpleasant personality and that fact that the story was told from his perspective, which made me want to see him as a hero. The plot was unpredictable enough that I often wondered what would happen next.

In this book, there is very little of all that. Quentin is where he wants to be and doing what he wants to do. When he is thwarted, he attempts to get back on track. This is much more of a conventional fantasy story, which can be entertaining enough, but it makes for a different and much less interesting reading experience than the first book.

In addition, the plot is much more predictable. For instance:

The second time they used the golden key I was groaning to myself: "Are you really going to go through again without checking carefully where it leads first!".

At almost no point in Quentin's story was I surprised at what happened next. The exception to these complaints is Julias story. That was a bit less predictable and contained the only really awe-inducing scene. All in all it was a decent read, but a bit of a letdown compared to the previous book.

From the ending it looks like there will be a sequel. If Grossman writes one, I hope it takes place on Earth, because that's where it's most interesting to read about Quentin.

[alguien]

Then you should read fiction that writes about magic that way. I think magic written with a "sense of wonder" is deadly boring. For instance, I don't really like the way GRRM does magic. Not a big problem, but it's not my favorite. But that doesn't mean he's, you know, doing it wrong. It's just his take.

Heh. Thought of Raidne's comment above while reading GRRM's interview in NY magazine. Specifically this part:

(GRRM): I can tell you generally that when treating with magic in fantasy, you have to keep it magical. Many fantasy writers work out these detailed systems, and rules, and I think that's a mistake.

For magic to be effective in a literary sense, it has to be unknowable and strange and dangerous, with forces that can't be predicted or controlled. That makes it, I think, much more interesting and evocative. It functions as a symbol or metaphor of all the forces in the universe we don't understand and maybe never will.

(Interviewer): So, you don't want to be explaining midi-chlorian levels?

(GRRM): If I wanted to write science fiction, I would write science fiction.

Its an interesting interview for other reasons as well (talks a bit about Winds of Winter), but that bit above made me think of this fun thread from a while back.

FTR, my opinion on The Magicians has not improved with age. I lent it to a friend who went to Carleton College (on purpose) and he reported back, "Its basically 'what if the pricks I went to college with could do magic?'" ;)

Will still probably check the sequel out from the library, though.

[Galactus]

I kind of liked the Magicians. Yes, it was "pricks go to college and do magic", but I really didn't mind that. It poked some rather tender spots for a lot of fantasy readers I think, and it kind of worked as a whole.

Magician King was... Less good I think, the theme wasn't as strong and without it the aimlessness felt weird. It also felt a lot more predictable and cliché. There were a few interesting bits, but not many.

[Starkess]

I just finished The Magicians and I quite liked it.

I mean, yeah, Quentin was an ass. Totally. But...I totally relate to him. I guess maybe I'm just a shallow, narcissistic jerk too. But his same problems are the ones I struggle with all the time. As cliche as it is, what the fuck is happiness and how do we get it? Very few times in my life have I ever considered myself truly "happy" despite having lots of things going for me. Or maybe because of it. It's like, you're smart and talented, you must have some crazy ambition or life dream, what are you planning on doing with your life? And you just keep saying...I don't know. I don't feel this great urge to do anything at all, but I wish I did, because maybe that would make me happy. And you keep setting these goalposts of what it will take to make you happy, and somehow it never works out.

So yeah, angsty and annoying? Sure. But realistic? Yup. And not just for teenagers. I'm 24 and I think about shit like this all the time.

Not sure that the book needed a sequel, but I'll still read The Magician Kings.

As far as the "Physical Kids," I don't think they were necessarily bad friends. In fact they seemed to be pretty good friends, when they could spare it from being self-involved twits. I think this is maybe a bit of Grossman telling not showing--he describes in good detail the situations in which they are shit to each other, and kind of glosses over the actual friendship parts. But I still think it's a believable group of people, except for maybe Alice. Seems like she should have left them all to their self-destructive ways--except then again, she was in love with Quentin and I can understand why that made her stay. Apparently it runs in the family.

[alguien]

I forgot to mention, I actually enjoyed Grossman's short story in John Joseph Adam's recent Wizards anthology.

And it sort of serves as a bridge between the two books. At least it takes place in between them.

So I'll probably pick the sequel up. (get myself all annoyed again)

[True Blue Mug]

Not sure that the book needed a sequel, but I'll still read The Magician Kings.

A little late to this party, but I just finished The Magicians and I was really surprised that there was a sequel. It didn't really read like an actual fantasy, more like a satire. Fillory was kinda bare bones for another narrative and what further commentary could Grossman have for the genre?

[Gigei]

Just finished both books.

First Book:

I loved the theme but the execution wasn't really enjoyable and once I understood the concept "those emo middle-class pricks who have nothing to complain about are all bored and being jerks, except they have magic" it was rather predictable and boring.

Nonetheless, a good enough read.

Second Book:

More stuff happens so I was less bored. Julia's chapters are great except for the fact that it has the usual

rape as backstory

thing that I have really some to despise. It's like every single book with a female character always has the same old thing. Link (spoiler): http://www.doesnotpl...comics/pwc-0050

Overall:

Pretty good. Not something I would all-out recommend for most people.

Not every book is good, and not every book that attempts to be art succeeds. Did the Magicians make you cry? Laugh? Did it make you horny? Did it make you mourn? Did it make you think new thoughts or consider new possibilities?.

No it didn't. It was just okay, not something I felt that strongly about.

They have all this power and nothing to do with it. Just like Quentin has all this power and potential, but never does anything with it because there's nothing (or very little) that really challenges him. (He does step up to some extent when those challenges happen though.)

Many of the magicians have meaningful work. It's mentioned several times they do have many do-gooders who are in the medical field or infiltrate governments to make things better. Alice was also going into post-graduate study and would probably have found something good to do if not for sticking with her bf.

I think it's not so much the world as it is Quentin always being unhappy for no reason. He could have just gone out, traveled, tried his hand doing work, etc. but he opted for 1.) drugs and alcohol then when that didn't work out 2.) Fillory then when that didn't work out 3.) quit and just got a fake "job" because he felt he was too "special" to actually do real work.

Alice's parents aren't the whole world of magicians and in fact, there is a guy who does have a real, adult job in the magical field and he isn't a dick even though his name is Richard.

Richard is the one who sensibly stays behind at the inn because he doesn't particularly want the crown. He saves the crew after the mess at the tomb and then goes back to the real world later.

I think in the book world magicians can find happiness, the main character just hasn't done anything yet to figure out what he wants to do with his life.

[Shryke]

Many of the magicians have meaningful work. It's mentioned several times they do have many do-gooders who are in the medical field or infiltrate governments to make things better. Alice was also going into post-graduate study and would probably have found something good to do if not for sticking with her bf.

I think it's not so much the world as it is Quentin always being unhappy for no reason. He could have just gone out, traveled, tried his hand doing work, etc. but he opted for 1.) drugs and alcohol then when that didn't work out 2.) Fillory then when that didn't work out 3.) quit and just got a fake "job" because he felt he was too "special" to actually do real work.

Alice's parents aren't the whole world of magicians and in fact, there is a guy who does have a real, adult job in the magical field and he isn't a dick even though his name is Richard.

Richard is the one who sensibly stays behind at the inn because he doesn't particularly want the crown. He saves the crew after the mess at the tomb and then goes back to the real world later.

I think in the book world magicians can find happiness, the main character just hasn't done anything yet to figure out what he wants to do with his life.

I think you are overstating how many find anything worth doing. From both books, there seems little evidence of any magicians doing much useful. They are like the ultimate rich people, with no obligations and free to indulge whatever whims they have. Some choose to help people, many seem to descend into some varying level of quirky pasttiming. They are retired people basically. Or Buster Bluth.

[Gigei]

I think you are overstating how many find anything worth doing. From both books, there seems little evidence of any magicians doing much useful. They are like the ultimate rich people, with no obligations and free to indulge whatever whims they have. Some choose to help people, many seem to descend into some varying level of quirky pasttiming. They are retired people basically. Or Buster Bluth.

That's because the books are from the viewpoint of an emo. There's plenty to do, Quentin just thinks he is too "special" for any of it.Anyone with a cause or vision could do whatever they wanted to do. Quentin and the gang are just too lame to try it.

You can try and do some good in the world:

Some of the student body went into public service—quietly promoting the success of humanitarian causes, or subtly propping up the balance of various failing ecosystems

You can be ambitious and be a behind-the-scenes power:

It was considered chic to go undercover, to infiltrate governments and think tanks and NGOs, even the military, in order to get oneself into a position to influence real-world affairs magically from behind the scenes.

You can do something really exotic:

spent their time at suborbital altitudes keeping a weather eye out for stray asteroids and oversize solar flares and other potential planetary-scale disasters

You can study and create more spells:

Plenty of students went in for academic research. Alice was looking at a post-graduate program in Glasgow, though the idea of being separated didn’t particularly appeal to either of them, nor did the idea of Quentin’s aimlessly tagging along with her to Scotland.

There are other jobs, too. I really don't think the problem is with the magical world. The problem is with Quentin.

[Shryke]

Except that's Alice talking, not Quentin. It's not just from his perspective.

And while some do go into politics or whatever, that's not anywhere near to most of them. And the other Magicians we do see aren't exactly up to much of anything important. For the most part, Alice seems correct: there's not much to do with magic.

[Gigei]

That's real life for you. Most people don't do anything "important."

[Shryke]

That's real life for you. Most people don't do anything "important."

Exactly.

Magic never gives him purpose or direction because there's nothing to do with it beyond "whatever you feel like, I guess".

[Gigei]

Exactly.

Magic never gives him purpose or direction because there's nothing to do with it beyond "whatever you feel like, I guess".

That's your point.

My point is that magicians can do whatever they want and there's a lot to do. Since it's from the POV of a whiny emo we don't see it firsthand. Anyone with a cause or vision could do whatever they wanted to do. Quentin and the gang are just too lame to try it.

I'm not talking about "important" or magic giving Quentin direction - why would magic do that for him? Your life's path is what you want to do, not something external that's given to you. Magic doesn't magically make everyone super specially important but that doesn't mean all of the magicians have to waste their life on alcohol and drugs. In the second book Josh finds his own little niche in the world where he can get respect. Penny also joins a cause. Richard is still off doing his financial/magician work. IMO, all that "oh noes magic doesn't give me anything to do and all I can think of is to get drunk and high but that ruined my life so all I can do now is to get a fake job playing web games all day long" is just Quentin being lame.

[Demesne]

Just finished the sequel.

I really like the series, though I am not sure how much I would have liked either book on its own. The first book is all about how dysfunctional Quentin is and how and why he completely fucked up his life. The second book builds on that, and shows him slooooooowly starting to learn from his mistakes and begin to care for other people and appreciate what he has. I really love stories of flawed people becoming less flawed.

The books certainly have their flaws, but I found them to be a lot of fun, with a nicely quirky language and a lot of endearingly human moments for the characters. I can see why not everyone would like them, because they're pretty idiosyncratic, but I did.

And while some do go into politics or whatever, that's not anywhere near to most of them. And the other Magicians we do see aren't exactly up to much of anything important. For the most part, Alice seems correct: there's not much to do with magic.

I would suggest that this has less to do with magic and more to do with magicians. Quentin is an extreme case, but that professor guy at the graduation hinted that the typical magician is an over-clever, immature narcissist - the kind of person who honestly believe that the world should jump whenever he snaps his fingers, and who is mulishly stubborn enough to actually make that happen. The magicians who manage to take an interest in something outside of themselves (it doesn't have to be objectively important, just as long as it provides a moderate challenge and feels meaningful to them - writing treatises on dragons apparently works for Poppy, but constantly redecorating his house has not brought Alice's father any joy) seem to turn out more or less fine - it's just that a lot of them never do that on their own initiative, and they are so self-sufficient that there is no outside force that can compel them to do it either.

[lady narcissa]

This thread prompted me to pick up and read the first two books in this series last year. I very much enjoyed them and got an opportunity to talk with Grossman a bit about them last summer.

I felt a heavy presence of Evelyn Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" in the first book and Grossman pretty much confirmed that Brideshead is one of his favorite books and undoubtedly influenced it. He also mentioned that Julia's character was influenced by Harry Potter's cousin, Dudley. He always wondered what it was like for the people like Dudley who knew about magic and got left behind when the others went off to learn it. So Julia and her story in the second book came to be.

The third book is underway and looks to be coming out in 2014:

http://bibliofiend.com/2013/02/20/exclusive-interview-with-author-time-book-critic-lev-grossman-part-2/