American Politics XIV

[The Progressive]

I don't get this argument. One of the big arguments is that the government will bungle it. So how can people seriously fear it turning into a single payer when they think it will turn out badly?

So we have swordfish who is decrying vehemently that it'll fail due to government bungling .......... and then there's commodore who is parroting most hysterically that it'll be too successful and will destroy private insurance.

I think swordfish and commodore should debate against each other.

And I can't even comprehend starkimus' hardon for six sigma engineers.

[TrackerNeil]

Knew I'd find this eventually. Shows that providing countervailing evidence is usually a losing battle.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

So, lets just hurl ape shit at each other and be done with it? Forget any attempts at real civilized discussion?

[Yagathai]

Tracker,

So, lets just hurl ape shit at each other and be done with it? Forget any attempts at real civilized discussion?

How long have you been on these boards again?

[Annelise]

Tracker,

So, lets just hurl ape shit at each other and be done with it? Forget any attempts at real civilized discussion?

Unfortunately, I think that is the effect over time for too many people. Or one of them, anyway. Either they end up advocating hurling ape shit to stay competitive, as it were, or they disconnect. That's happened to me.. I get so dispirited with the level of discourse that I just have to tune it out for awhile.. and I find politics interesting. I suspect a higher, longer casualty rate for people who don't.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Annelise,

Sadly, I think you are right.

Yagathai,

In the dictonary under "Unintended Irony" I think there's a photo of me.

:/

[Annelise]

Annelise,

Sadly, I think you are right.

Of course, sometimes elevated discussion is just as depressing. Try reading 14th "Do not dare to hope- it has forsaken these lands" Dragon in the healthcare thread.

[TrackerNeil]

Tracker,

So, lets just hurl ape shit at each other and be done with it? Forget any attempts at real civilized discussion?

In some cases, yes, that's exactly what's going to happen. I find that most people, no matter how intelligent or well educated, don't change their opinions because of logic or reason or facts; they change when they are emotionally ready. When I engage in debates the first thing I do is try to divine if I am dealing with that kind of person. If not, I proceed with a lively discussion. If so, I make my point and then exit the conversation.

[Celtigo]

A blast from the past:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090820/pl_af...kspoliticsridge

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Obama is coming for your guns

Armed men seen mixing with protesters outside recent events held by President Obama acted within the law, the White House said Tuesday, attempting to allay fears of a security threat.

Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, said people are entitled to carry weapons outside such events if local laws allow it. "There are laws that govern firearms that are done state or locally," he said. "Those laws don't change when the president comes to your state or locality."

[Watcher]

Obama is coming for your guns

Your being sarcastic right? There is nothing in that article that even hints that new gun restriction are being considered. Obama's spokesman has repeatedly said they aren't going to stop those idiots from showing up. They consider it a local law enforcement issue.

From the article:

Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at California State University at San Bernardino, said concern about whether Obama will enact new gun restrictions may also be contributing to the tense political climate.

"There's a lot of anger out there," Levin said.

"A key thing that's been bubbling under the surface is what's going on with President Obama and guns," he said. "There is a real question mark not only for extremists but for gun rights advocates in the mainstream."

I've encounter this attitude over and over again since the election, despite absolutely no evidence for it. I've been countering it by betting people $20 that there won't be new anti-gun laws before 2012. So far I'm posed to win $100 and will gladly take more bets.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Your being sarcastic right?

Of course, clearly the opposite is true, the quote from the article I put up has the president supporting local gun laws (or lack thereof), and saying that just because the sainted personage of the president comes to town it doesn't change that (the complete opposite of what Bush thought, anyone carrying a gun at his rallies probably would have been shot on sight.)

[Kelli Fury]

Leonard Peltier's parole was denied again

[Inigima]

I didn't even know he was up for it again. That shit needs to be publicized in advance.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

I didn't even know he was up for it again. That shit needs to be publicized in advance.

Here's some advance for you. His next scheduled hearing is in 2024.

[SamTheSlayer]

This question has been puzzling me for a long time. Do Americans want Socialism/Communism? It seems that when you go to a lot of these blogs it's what Americans want. Maybe it's just what most of these bloggers want. I for one don't want it. So I am against Universal Healthcare (please don't tell me it's not what HR 3200 is about). If you can't pay your medical bill it should be treated like any other bill you can't pay. I think we forget that we subsidize a lot of these European countries by providing them with milatry defence. American war ships is what patrols the Mediterranean Sea not Swedish fleets or whatever. So we really can't be comparing ourself to their system and their system really isn't working that well anyways.

[The Iceman of the North]

What's the link between UHC and Socialism or Communism? Are you claiming that all countries with UHC are Socialist or Communist?

[Swordfish]

I don't get this argument. One of the big arguments is that the government will bungle it. So how can people seriously fear it turning into a single payer when they think it will turn out badly?

That really depends on how you define success.

It's possible that the program could provide care of sufficient quality to put private insurers out of business, but be completely fiscally unsustainable. I cannot imagine how a private entity would compete with a government run program that is not beholden to the bottom line.

it's really not that complicated.

Unless you believe that the american people would avoid opting for a program that is 'free' simply because it's bankrupting us.

in which case i have some high quality beachfront propert I'd love to sell you, and 21 million dollars locked in escrow I'm willing to split with you if you can just front me some money for attorney fees.

:cool:

[awesome possum]

This question has been puzzling me for a long time. Do Americans want Socialism/Communism? It seems that when you go to a lot of these blogs it's what Americans want. Maybe it's just what most of these bloggers want. I for one don't want it. So I am against Universal Healthcare (please don't tell me it's not what HR 3200 is about). If you can't pay your medical bill it should be treated like any other bill you can't pay. I think we forget that we subsidize a lot of these European countries by providing them with milatry defence. American war ships is what patrols the Mediterranean Sea not Swedish fleets or whatever. So we really can't be comparing ourself to their system and their system really isn't working that well anyways.

L

O

L

[C S]

This question has been puzzling me for a long time. Do Americans want Socialism/Communism? It seems that when you go to a lot of these blogs it's what Americans want. Maybe it's just what most of these bloggers want. I for one don't want it. So I am against Universal Healthcare (please don't tell me it's not what HR 3200 is about). If you can't pay your medical bill it should be treated like any other bill you can't pay. I think we forget that we subsidize a lot of these European countries by providing them with milatry defence. American war ships is what patrols the Mediterranean Sea not Swedish fleets or whatever. So we really can't be comparing ourself to their system and their system really isn't working that well anyways.

Unless you are for disbanding the police dept., fire dept., public roads and utilities, the public education system, etc. and replacing them with for-profit entities, then realistically you accept that some aspects of socialism are acceptable in our society. If you are for such a change, then get back to us when your people can win more than one congressional district. Until that time the rest of us will be quibbling over what degree of socialism is desirable for our Republic.