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[polishgenius]

pg, Mentat,

Why? It's established early on that there is a biological connection between the Na'vi and the "racial memory" in the biosphere. The Na'vi link with each of the animals they ride. They link with their ancestors via the trees the bulldozers were destroying. Why is it unbelievable some sort of rudementary conciousness was able to perceive the danger and link to the animals and push them to aid the Na'vi in their attack?

I will agree the frontal assualt on the Marine firing line was particularly stupid. My big beef with the arial assault was waiting so long to hit the attacking forces. I'd have hit them as soon as they came into the flux. Letting them get close to the "well of souls" was incredibly dangerous.

I didn't think it was unbelievable, just stupid. Mostly because it was incredibly cheesy and not presented well. A matter of personal taste, yes, but I just found it ridiculous. It'd have annoyed me less if the planet had physically started dropping rocks on them.

But yeah, glad we can agree on the fights. I know hollywood in general is bad at tactics but they were just outrageously bad. Totally agree on the bomber thing. Especially since it could easily have fallen on the tree when they did blow it up.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mentat,

Scott:

It's not unbelievable, it's just a Deus ex Machina plot device. When Sully prays to the god, the Na'Vi even say that it doesn't take sides. Eventually it does, proving Sully new their God better than the Na'Vi themselves... I found it to be poor story telling. The humans only wanted to mine some ore anyway, so they probably wouldn't have wantonly attacked the rhino-like creatures or devastated the whole planet. Their conflict was with a very specific tribe of Na'Vi.

Yes I do see your point but I don't think it's true "Deus ex Machina" because it's set up in advance with all the discussion of the "network" within the trees. As I understand it "Deus ex Machina" is when the god intereviens and it's completely out of left field.

Economic nitpick. Okay early in the film it's established it takes at least 5 years to get personel to Pandora. Giovanni Ribisi's character (Parker Selfridge) says the "unobtanium" sells for a 20 million a kilo back on Earth. Either the currency they're using is dramatically inflated or people and corporations back on Earth are unbelievabily wealthy to make this sort of mining commercially viable.

pg,

Totally agree on the bomber thing. Especially since it could easily have fallen on the tree when they did blow it up.

I was thinking the same thing. Great they stop the "daisy cutter" from being dropped on the tree to have the vehicle itself crash into the tree.

[polishgenius]

Economic nitpick. Okay early in the film it's established it takes at least 5 years to get personel to Pandora. Giovanni Ribisi's character (Parker Selfridge) says the "unobtanium" sells for a couple of million a kilo back on Earth. Either the currency they're using is dramatically inflated or people and corporations back on Earth are unbelievabily wealthy to make this sort of mining commercially viable.

The whole backstory was incredibly badly developed, actually, both on the Na'vi side and the humans.

[Mentat]

Economic nitpick. Okay early in the film it's established it takes at least 5 years to get personel to Pandora. Giovanni Ribisi's character (Parker Selfridge) says the "unobtanium" sells for a couple of million a kilo back on Earth. Either the currency they're using is dramatically inflated or people and corporations back on Earth are unbelievabily wealthy to make this sort of mining commercially viable.

They also say it's the richest deposit in 200 km. That's like a 2 hour car-ride. Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to just go and mine somewhere else rather than to engage in a full scale war? I guess sci-fi inflation also affects kilometers...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mentat,

I figured there would be some connnection made between the strange environment and the generation of "unobtainium" (they couldn't come up with a better name than that?) Like somehow the memories of the dead are locked into the stones giving them the magnetic properties that created the floating mountains and kept the unobtainium near Na'Vi settlements.

None of which would have made such mining commercially viable.

[elmis]

I'm sorry if I'm slow, I don't get the economic nitpick.

They establish that it takes five years (in cryo sleep) to send the spaceship to the Moon (that's basically lightspeed light) as it's a moon orbiting a gas giant near Alpha Centauri.

It costs 20 million for one kilo of the stuff.

We don't know what it costs to have people at the base, or what the trip costs, or how much ore they haul back so it's hard to say that it's not cost effective.

The spaceship drops off like 100 new recruits, loads up on mined ore, and survivors rotating out, then heads back. This unobtanium (silly name indeed) is something they use for energy (or so Wiki says anyways - or did at least seems to be gone now) on Earth, so I assume they pop a kilo or two into the spaceship reactor and they have enough energy for the trip, leaving them with plenty of kilos in the cargo hold.

The company is obviously very rich (Weyland-Yutani'esque).

Avatar 3: Aliens vs. Na'vi

On Pandora, Eywa will hear you scream.

EDIT: Spelling

[Mentat]

Mentat,

I figured there would be some connnection made between the strange environment and the generation of "unobtainium" (they couldn't come up with a better name than that?) Like somehow the memories of the dead are locked into the stones giving them the magnetic properties that created the floating mountains and kept the unobtainium near Na'Vi settlements.

None of which would have made such mining commercially viable.

There might have been, or there might not. Basically there was so ridiculously little background on human civilization in the future that we were left guessing on almost everything. We don't know if unobtainium is just very rare throughout the galaxy or if it's like the spice and can only be found on a single planet. We don't know why it's so valuable either. What do they use it for? It's just an ad hoc plot device, and there are far too many of those in the film... It's just cartoonishy on a Masters of the Universe level, and this is from the guy that gave us Aliens. I understand its visual appeal, but did it have to be so stupid on the script level?

[Blaine]

Wow that was a beautiful piece of shit!

Simply gorgeous. But I couldn't have cared less about the Nav'i (first sign of hacky genre writing unnecessary apostrophes e'ver'y'wher'e!) and I could have told you pretty much every beat of the story after the first 10 minutes.

Someone earlier said that this movie made them feel. Really? I couldn't have felt less about any character on screen. Barely fleshed, singular motivated props that were there simply to show some fantastic CGI world-building. Even the major beats of the story seemed slapdash.

Let's see, Jake isn't liked by the Nav'i because he basically screwed them completely and led a guncrazy battalion directly to "home tree" (groan). They blow up the big ass tree. So how will ever get them to trust him again? Tame the big ass red X-wing bird. Do we actually see much of that? Nah. The trick was to jump on it from higher up. Done. All you have to do is show up with a bigass red mount and all will be forgiven. Basically, you can blow up someone's house then show up with a cool new car and everyone will be cool with you from now on.

From the unobtanium (more groan) to the usb-ports that conveniently connect the Nav'i to their toy accessories - sorry animal friends... it all seemed like the story was conceived by Hasbro.

Even the gorgeous visuals suffered from overkill, most likely to make up for a story that would barely pass muster as a Saturday Morning Cartoon. For example, luminescence is neato. But when you make the entire fucking forest luminescent, it's hard to care. Same goes for every six-limbed and double winged animal. After awhile you just don't notice or don't care.

I feel like I got my $12 out of the CGI. But c'mon. That story couldn't be any lamer.

[CelticBrennus]

They also say it's the richest deposit in 200 km. That's like a 2 hour car-ride. Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to just go and mine somewhere else rather than to engage in a full scale war? I guess sci-fi inflation also affects kilometers...

Or simlpy "accidentally" drop a couple metric tons of nerve gas in their village. Of give them a gift of the Na'vi version of blankets.

Thats a hell of a lot cheaper then paying the insurance premiums on giant mechs, and death benefits to families.

[RaceBannon42]

Saw this in 3D yestersday. Damn was it gorgeous.

Story was incredibly mediocre, but damn was it visual feast.

It was even better seeing it in the brand new posh theatre that just open by me. They have a VIP balcony with plush leather seats, wide rows, end tables between seats, and premium beers and liquors.

I like Nick Mamatas's review of the movie

[Kalbear]

It was much like watching Planet Earth, but with more explosions. It was visually arresting, but the plot wasn't there at all.

Didn't matter, since it was so gorgeous.

On the end though, I was annoyed:

So...why exactly did the marines land at all? I mean, the plan was to simply bomb the tree, right? It's not like the natives have AAA or anything; there's no reason to be on the ground at all. I feel like that part should've been a part of another chunk of the movie, where they send a landing party to try and rescue Sully and it gets massacred by the natives; it didn't seem like the humans had enough reason to be terrified of anything on Na'vi. More Aliens-like hunting humans in the forest would've been welcome.

Kids absolutely loved it.

[Tsavong Lah]

Man, people are so jaded. There are very few movies released that you couldn't sit and complain about plot flaws all day long. It's a fact.

However, a movie like this that is meant to be entertaining, and lives up to that expectation in spades, should be enjoyed for what it is. Besides, I think the average person went into the movie convinced that it was going to be awful, and some people overcame that and others didn't.

Basically the biggest complaint I'm hearing is "not enough worldbuilding" because they didn't explain everything about the future and this new world.

[polishgenius]

I'm glad you're here to explain to me why I didn't like it.

Especially since you picked out one of the many many complaints being made and decided that was the only one.

Anyway, if I'd been expecting a crap film, I'd probably have enjoyed it more. Like with Terminator Salvation, which was probably about on par with this, I enjoyed that.

[Tsavong Lah]

I'm glad you're here to explain to me why I didn't like it.

Especially since you picked out one of the many many complaints being made and decided that was the only one.

Anyway, if I'd been expecting a crap film, I'd probably have enjoyed it more. Like with Terminator Salvation, which was probably about on par with this, I enjoyed that.

Wow, when did I ever express anything except an opinion? Oh, yeah, when I said "its a fact". That was about our ability to pick apart any movie. Way to get mad at me for not agreeing with you that the movie was bad. I'm just saying that I think people are too set on being critical to enjoy something that is eminently enjoyable if you only let it be. Maybe not for you, fine. But I really think it was an amazingly enjoyable experience, and it seems like most people agree with that, despite flaws that I recognize but feel no need to harp on to detract from my overall enjoyment of the movie.

[Kouran]

This unobtanium (silly name indeed) is something they use for energy (or so Wiki says anyways - or did at least seems to be gone now) on Earth, so I assume they pop a kilo or two into the spaceship reactor and they have enough energy for the trip, leaving them with plenty of kilos in the cargo hold.

snip...

EDIT: Spelling

Oh the name of the element is silly, you mean like:

Ununnilium element 110

Unununium element 111

Ununbium element 112

Ununtrium element 113

etc etc

Doesnt seem that silly to me, or at least no sillier than already silly names for non natural elements.

[The Anti-Targ]

I figured there would be some connnection made between the strange environment and the generation of "unobtainium" (they couldn't come up with a better name than that?)

Rareitanium had already been taken (ref Ratchet and Clank: Going Commando, or was it Up your Arsenal?) :-D

It's not so much that the frontal assault was tactically bad, it's that such a military tactic is completely out of character for the Na'vi who seem to be masters of stealth. Even then, it would be defensible if the battle was taking place on an open battlefield; but it was in the fricken jungle ffs!

[Liffguard]

I'm just saying that I think people are too set on being critical to enjoy something that is eminently enjoyable if you only let it be. Maybe not for you, fine. But I really think it was an amazingly enjoyable experience, and it seems like most people agree with that, despite flaws that I recognize but feel no need to harp on to detract from my overall enjoyment of the movie.

I basically agree with this. I think that your mindset going in will effect your enjoyment of this movie. I wasn't expecting a timeless masterpiece and I went in wanting to enjoy it. I recognise the numerous flaws the movie had and yet I very much enjoyed it anyway.

[Blaine]

I basically agree with this. I think that your mindset going in will effect your enjoyment of this movie. I wasn't expecting a timeless masterpiece and I went in wanting to enjoy it. I recognise the numerous flaws the movie had and yet I very much enjoyed it anyway.

Or the movie's story just sucked unless you're about seven years old.

The whole "predetermined mindset" argument can be applied to any film or really any entertainment. It still doesn't stop people from enjoying a decent film.

Basically Avatar had all the depth and storytelling of a really good ride at an amusement park. Or maybe a solid videogame.

But when you talk about movies, you're comparing it with the greatest films ever made. And Avatar won't hold up. In about 10 years, after the technology is embarrassingly out of date, it'll be considered on the level of say, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?. Sure, it was neat at the time, but upon reflection, it's not much of movie.

[Tsavong Lah]

Or the movie's story just sucked unless you're about seven years old.

The whole "predetermined mindset" argument can be applied to any film or really any entertainment. It still doesn't stop people from enjoying a decent film.

Basically Avatar had all the depth and storytelling of a really good ride at an amusement park. Or maybe a solid videogame.

But when you talk about movies, you're comparing it with the greatest films ever made. And Avatar won't hold up. In about 10 years, after the technology is embarrassingly out of date, it'll be considered on the level of say, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?. Sure, it was neat at the time, but upon reflection, it's not much of movie.

And how I'll think about it in 10 years should affect my enjoyment of it now...how?

And the story wasn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. I'd say it is about as good as the original Star Wars. That story wasn't original in any way, yet is considered a classic to this day and the special effects don't hold up either.

I'm not saying Avatar is a classic. But it is a whole lot more, imo, than you are making it out to be.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TL,

For clarity let me say that I throughly enjoyed this film. There was no point in 2 hours and 40 min. That I felt bored or disenchanted with the film. It was fun and I felt for the Na'Vi too. I simply think there were a few plot holes. Like the incredibly high price of "unobtainium".