Women in combat, bad/good idea?

[King Nobody]

Since there are armed forces where women are integrated with men, are you aware of any documentation to substantiate your concern?

I'm first going to have to ask you to provide documentation to substantiate your claim that women serve on the front lines alongside men.

Even though the risk stems from the irrational view that some men have over women?

It doesn't matter whose at fault.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Ah, and now we have the spoor of a troll.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

As Terra points out, what about other fields of great danger and stress, such as policework and firefighting? Why is integration assumed there, but the military is still a no-go zone?

If qualified applicants can do the job, and want to do the job, why are the attitudes that need changing the ones that come up trumps?

"I'm first going to have to ask you to provide documentation to substantiate your claim that women serve on the front lines alongside men."

Wait, sorry, what? Have you actually read the article linked by Raidne, or the report from Ran, or the reports of actual female military members on this very board?

[TerraPrime]

I'm first going to have to ask you to provide documentation to substantiate your claim that women serve on the front lines alongside men.

Raidne had posted an article from NYT with relevant information. DatePalm is an active member of the Israeli military.

[King Nobody]

Ah, and now we have the spoor of a troll.

Because I disagree?

[Xray the Enforcer]

Because I disagree?

No, because you refuse to post backup to your claims. If you want to be taken seriously, post seriously. Saying "well, you provide documentation first," when asked to provide your own, is childish. So step up, or step out.

[King Nobody]

Raidne had posted an article from NYT with relevant information. DatePalm is an active member of the Israeli military.

I was being intentionally difficult, if you are going to ask for proof of claims, you should probably prove your own. My post was from experience as a guy, i know how we think. I don't see how it would change in the military. And no, of course I don't have any extreme examples involving my feelings of the death of a woman over the death of a man, but in general cases involving seeing a man and woman get injured, no matter how minor, I generally feel more obligated to help the woman.

[King Nobody]

No, because you refuse to post backup to your claims. If you want to be taken seriously, post seriously. Saying "well, you provide documentation first," when asked to provide your own, is childish. So step up, or step out.

As opposed to the numerous documents everyone else has posted backing their claims, right? You didn't attack me because I refused to post documentation, you attacked me because I disagreed, or did i simply miss the posts where you called everyone else a troll?

[Lyanna Stark]

As opposed to the numerous documents everyone else has posted backing their claims, right? You didn't attack me because I refused to post documentation, you attacked me because I disagreed, or did i simply miss the posts where you called everyone else a troll?

People have posted documents. Raidne posted an article. DatePalm is in the Israeli army and has first hand experience. Learn2scroll upthread and read. The documents you want are already there.

[Maithanet]

I was being intentionally difficult, if you are going to ask for proof of claims, you should probably prove your own.

Did you miss Raidne's post (#131), Datepalm's post (#208) and Lany's post (#228)? Because they are pretty substantial.

My post was from experience as a guy, i know how we think. I don't see how it would change in the military. And no, of course I don't have any extreme examples involving my feelings of the death of a woman over the death of a man, but in general cases involving seeing a man and woman get injured, no matter how minor, I generally feel more obligated to help the woman.

Please don't speak "as a guy". We are not monolithic, and have many different opinions.

[King Nobody]

People have posted documents. Raidne posted an article. DatePalm is in the Israeli army and has first hand experience. Learn2scroll upthread and read. The documents you want are already there.

Wow, you're right, I guess i deserved it because two people in a 16 page thread posted documents.

[mormont]

Combination of a lot of different factors, but maybe that's the antireductionist in me. No, genetics don't always or even usually have much impact on behavior. Obviously environment is the biggest factor in determining somebody's behavior and/or personality. There are traits though that are more likely depending on genetics. Over thousands of years, certain survival behaviors can be selected and passed on. Why do you think animals have instincts? Most animals learn some aspects of their behavior as they mature, but most are also born with un-learned survival instincts, which can have an affect on personality/behavior. Humans are no different. We are animals. We have more ability to change or control our behavior than primitive organisms, but that doesn't mean they don't still hold sway.

You seem to have misunderstood my point, but to be fair it may not have been clear.

The point is that you are positing inheritance of an extremely complex behaviour in (as Terra points out) a limited set of circumstances, not a simple instinct. The evidence for such behaviours being inherited is pretty much non-existent. (Which is why you won't find it in simple textbooks of anthropology, biology or psychology.)

My main concern with it is the effects it would have on the men who are serving. Adding a girl to a happy group of friends can easily change things, and jealousy and sexual frustration isn't really something you want in the army. And I do believe the cries of a dying woman, or bodies of dead women would be more distressing than those of male comrades.

I also agree that having women serve alongside men could make the men make irrational decisions. Especially in cases where there is a relationship, or even a sexual attraction the man has to a woman.

This point was addressed in the article that Ran linked to earlier. Go read that, and preferably the references it gives. That should satisfy your request that the other side 'back up' their claims.

[Bellis]

King Nobody,

I'm first going to have to ask you to provide documentation to substantiate your claim that women serve on the front lines alongside men.

This woman, who attended Jr. High school in your very province, was killed in combat in Afghanistan serving in the armed forces of the very country in which you claim to be from. She served as forward observation officer and crew commander, which sounds like "front lines" to my non-military ears.

[Xray the Enforcer]

You didn't attack me because I refused to post documentation, you attacked me because I disagreed

Ah, so you are a mind-reader in addition to being the Speaker For All Men. (oops, except that there's already a man in the thread who takes exception to your claims on that, so you might want to produce your Speaker For All Men card right after you cough up some credible studies to support your other claims.)

[TerraPrime]

Re: King Nobody

I was being intentionally difficult, if you are going to ask for proof of claims, you should probably prove your own.

Now that your attempt to be difficult has been answered and addressed, what's your answer to the presence of documentation on the reduction of effectiveness of units with mixed gender soldiers? Do you have them? Or not?

Also, any response on women working in the police or firefighting, or prison guard, or other occupations that will expose them to danger?

My post was from experience as a guy, i know how we think. I don't see how it would change in the military. And no, of course I don't have any extreme examples involving my feelings of the death of a woman over the death of a man, but in general cases involving seeing a man and woman get injured, no matter how minor, I generally feel more obligated to help the woman.

I'm a guy. I don't think like you do on the issue of women.

I generally feel like strangling my students for failing to do the bare minimum of studying and paying attention in class, but I overcome that feeling because it is unprofessional and inappropriate. Many white soldiers in the past had feelings about appropriateness of working alongside black soldiers, but most of them got over that feeling because they were told to change.

What is it about gender issues in the military that should exempt it from this general expectation of professionalism? If the biases of men against women are putting lives in danger, should it not be even more imperative that we ensure these male soldiers are trained to avoid committing this error, rather than enabling them in continuing their sexist practices?

Wow, you're right, I guess i deserved it because two people in a 16 page thread posted documents.

Three people. There are also multiple back-and-forth replies in discussing the material being posted. If none of that caught your attention, then it's time you owned up to not having read the thread carefully, imo.

Edited for typos and grammar.

[Trebla]

Please don't speak "as a guy". We are not monolithic, and have many different opinions.

seconded.

[Guest Raidne]

Even though the risk stems from the irrational view that some men have over women?

And that would include police, firefighting, and the like?

I don't know - wouldn't that mean that we would have to have female police officers, firefighters, and soldiers? Otherwise, the male escapee of a hostage situation who's halfway down the front lawn would get picked off while the all-male police officers focus all their energy on saving the women still being held at gunpoint in the back storage closet. And we'll have no one to combat the inevitable all female fighting force some country will develop when they learn that the opposing forces will just kill each other fighting over who gets to have sex with them.

Apparently, you guys just can't help it. It's, just, like, Darwin and shit, man.

[Relic]

haha, you guys are mean. Does he really need six people telling him to go back and look at links?

[mormont]

haha, you guys are mean. Does he really need six people telling him to go back and look at links?

Given that he managed to miss all the links, probably. ;)

[TerraPrime]

haha, you guys are mean. Does he really need six people telling him to go back and look at links?

It cannot be helped. It's an innate response we inherited through evolution.