Fort Hood Shooting - 3 Soldiers involved

[Noontidal]

Whether it was his religion or whatnot that allowed him to justify his actions or his rotwieler Spike, He made the decision to do this thing. Not his religion, or his social standing or his dog. Earlier in the thread people were getting defensive because someone suggested he might be in their group. It does not matter, even if he was some 'pinko liberal' or otherwise, it in no way reflects on the rest of the individuals in that group. I do not believe, that the vast majority of you would ever concievably remotely support what he did regardless of rhetoric. If he is some 'fundie' or even if he happened to be a 'teabagger', the same still applies.

Although, if this were part of some more coordinated plan, I hope investigators catch it regardless.

[sologdin]

I suppose you could read it as only those unbelievers that attack you, but that's a stretch to say the Koran is only talking about self defense here, and since we know it's all bullshit anyway, the concern is how a fanatic would interpret it.

this strikes me as question-begging dogmatism. there's more in the koran about reasonable self-defense and the rule of law than there is about aggression, unless of course we count allah slaughtering people, which is perfectly consistent with the stories of the same character flooding the whole planet and destroying everything in the tribulation.

[The Iceman of the North]

They may not be different, but I don't know of any Christian groups out to kill me as an unbeliever. If that starts happening, I'll take more of an interest in the source of that belief.

You ought to read up on the Lord's Resistance Army.

[Lark the Sisterman]

Strange days. The self professed "random idiot" is the only one to speak sense in this thread.

[Lord O' Bones]

Strange days. The self professed "random idiot" is the only one to speak sense in this thread.

Oh yay! Now I know for a certainty to ignore you!

(It was only a really strong suspicion beforehand)

[Lark the Sisterman]

Oh yay! Now I know for a certainty to ignore you!

How can I possibly get on with my life now?!

[mormont]

[mod] No more personal snark about who is being ignored and who doesn't care, please. The Ignore function does not exist for the purpose of scoring points off each other. [/mod]

[Jaqen the FatManderly]

So Hasan attended a radical mosque whose leader has since praised his murders, was in contact with al Qaeda, shouted Allahu Akhbar as he opened fire on a group of US soldiers.

And you all think his religion has nothing to do with it? Like, it's not that he's a Muslim extremist - it's that he's a stressed out Muslim extremist. And the real enemy here is stress?

Do you realize how divorced from reality that is?

[Week]

So Hasan attended a radical mosque whose leader has since praised his murders, was in contact with al Qaeda, shouted Allahu Akhbar as he opened fire on a group of US soldiers.

And you all think his religion has nothing to do with it? Like, it's not that he's a Muslim extremist - it's that he's a stressed out Muslim extremist. And the real enemy here is stress?

Do you realize how divorced from reality that is?

Emphasis mine. Not sure if you were aware that this word could maybe be more of an issue than "stressed out" or "muslim".

[mormont]

So Hasan attended a radical mosque whose leader has since praised his murders, was in contact with al Qaeda, shouted Allahu Akhbar as he opened fire on a group of US soldiers.

Could you post the reliable, verified source that you are quoting these facts from, please? It's not that I doubt that there is one: it is that in the circumstances, stating things as confirmed facts without a source is likely to produce considerably more heat than light.

And you all think his religion has nothing to do with it? Like, it's not that he's a Muslim extremist - it's that he's a stressed out Muslim extremist. And the real enemy here is stress?

I think this is an attempt to deploy the old 'false dichotomy' argument. Mental health issues can and do coexist and feed into extremist religious beliefs, to the point where extreme and bizarre religious ideas, particularly very literal interpretations of selected bits of scripture, can be cited as symptomatic of some disorders. (Note that I'm not saying that literal interpretation of scripture is necessarily and always a symptom of mental disorder: that would be simply the same fallacy in reverse.)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

CNN is reporting that Maj. Hasan is up and talking:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/09/fort.h...ings/index.html

I'm really wondering how this will play out now?

[Jaqen the FatManderly]

Emphasis mine. Not sure if you were aware that this word could maybe be more of an issue than "stressed out" or "muslim".

While I disagree with Islam's claim to truth generally, there are many interpretations of the religion. Muslim extremism is one way of expressing the widely-held interpretation that violent jihad is good and positive.

Obviously many Muslims follow an interpretation of Islam that rejects violent jihad.

I would call Hasan's religion Muslim extremism, or Islam-favoring-violent-jihad.

[Ser Greguh]

Why do atheists bend themselves into intellectual knots trying to condone the Koran? It deserves at least as much scorn as the Bible imo. It's like some multicultural reflex kicks in that prevents objectivity. If similar passages were in the Bible (which may be the case), people here would be rightly all over it.

Passages of comparable disgust are in just about every religious document known to man, most certainly including the bible. It's not that the koran gets special treatment, it's that other religious texts don't. You can cherry-pick scary shit pretty much wherever you want.

In any case.

It strikes me as a wild fancy to suppose that these actions were undertaken in the service of any specific jihadist agenda; use of the word "infiltration" strikes me as somewhat unlikely. The guy seems for all the world to be a man of surface contradictions - quiet, a loner, but fiercely adherent to religious and political views that are not exactly calculated to win people's affections on a military base, and very much opposed to the war he was about to be sent to. It might seem a mystery how such a man ends up in the US Military, but it happens. Maybe he felt he could mitigate the harm he felt was being done by these conflicts. In any case any idealistic impulses were likely broken down over time, until he decides, as so many school shooters, to commit suicide in spectacular fashion. Unlike a suicide bombing, the point of it was likely not the target.

[Bellis]

It might seem a mystery how such a man ends up in the US Military, but it happens. Maybe he felt he could mitigate the harm he felt was being done by these conflicts.

He joined the army back in the 90s, before 9-11 or the "War on Terror", to get an education. This also seems to be before he "got religion" - which his cousin dates to his parents deaths in 1998 and 2001. His parents ran a "seedy pub" at one time so I'm guessing they weren't ever all that devout.

There are many practicing Muslims who join the military every year. Reasons include coming from pro-military families (a large number of Muslims are, paradoxically, Republican), wanting an education paid for and, indeed, wanting to prove their patriotism to their adopted nation.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/krkhan.htm

[SwordoftheMorning]

How are Hasan's religious beliefs, if they are indeed the reason for this rampage, ad example or proof that Islam is a religion of violence any more than the "Church of the Creator" fanatic who rampaged thru Illinois and Indiana killing 5 people including former Northwestern U basketball coach Ricky Byrdsong, an example that Christianity is the same ?

The quoting of verses, all the "examples", the documenting of just how Islam is "violent" displays incredible narrowmindedness. Christian "belief" has been used to justify everything from slavery to aparthied and segregation. how people who even I'd admit are intelligent and educated continue to exhibit such bigoted viewpoints still astounds me. Even tho I've seen it repeatedly, here and so many other places thru-out my life.

Whatever justification the man used to commit this massacre is not the fault of his teachings, his religion, his place in society. It's in his core. his being. thats where the fault lies. I wont say he is sick, thats a catchall excuse, I do believe there are some people that just are or turn evil. No medical explanation needed. If he is indeed the sole prepetrator of this tragedy. Start from there, from the man who did it. Focusing blame on factors that have nothing to do with him pulling the trigger is pointless and hurtful.

[Guest Raidne]

Makes more sense than PTSD, which is some catch-all condition people use to (mis?)appropriate blame to an institution rather than the individual who perpetrated the act.

PTSD is not a catch-all condition. IMO, it's pretty well-defined compared to a lot of other mental disorders out there. However, as I've said, I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that Hasan suffers from PTSD, as in, I don't see any evidence of any traumatic event of the kind you'd see before giving a diagnosis of PTSD. I am not a psychiatrist, but I do know that VA has to identify and verify the existence of a particular stressful event before we will grant compensation benefits for PTSD to veterans, with the exception of combat veterans, who are - practically speaking - just assumed to have experienced that kind of event.

OTOH, I can't imagine why on earth, given what we do know, he wouldn't have just gone AWOL. Flee to Canada. He was a trained psychiatrist, and - before he shot a bunch of people - the idea of a Muslim not wanting to deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan and have to shoot at other Muslims in a way that he thought would be an extreme violation of his faith is a pretty sympathetic reason for leaving the U.S. military. I would think Canada would have been OK with it.

In fact, the media is now suggesting that he got some bad advice on not being able to get out of military, or at least out of deployment to a Muslim country. I mean, if someone really insisted that they refused to kill Muslims, would we really send them overseas to one of those countries? Really?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Raidne,

Can't an officer resign his/her commission at any time to avoid deployment?

[SwordoftheMorning]

PTSD is not a catch-all condition. IMO, it's pretty well-defined compared to a lot of other mental disorders out there. However, as I've said, I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that Hasan suffers from PTSD, as in, I don't see any evidence of any traumatic event of the kind you'd see before giving a diagnosis of PTSD. I am not a psychiatrist, but I do know that VA has to identify and verify the existence of a particular stressful event before we will grant compensation benefits for PTSD to veterans.

OTOH, I can't imagine why on earth, given what we do know, he wouldn't have just gone AWOL. Flee to Canada. He was a trained psychiatrist, and - before he shot a bunch of people - the idea of a Muslim not wanting to deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan and have to shoot at other Muslims in a way that he thought would be an extreme violation of his faith is a pretty sympathetic reason for leaving the U.S. military. I would think Canada would have been OK with it.

In fact, the media is now suggesting that he got some bad advice on not being able to get out of military, or at least out of deployment to a Muslim country. I mean, if someone really insisted that they refused to kill Muslims, would we really send them overseas to one of those countries? Really?

In a word Raidne, no.

he is a field grade officer, resigning his commission is always an option. Being a medical officer, and a mental health specialist, Him being sent to a situation where he would have to "kill fellow Muslims" is a ridiculous assertion. Medic's, even combat medics, which he would not be aren't issued weapons. even for self protection. He would have been working in a medical unit, presumably continuing the job of consuling soldiers who have mental health issues.

I reiterate, the focus on is religion other than it possibly being a trigger for whatever sparked this tragedy is off-point. There is something very wrong with the person that did this. If it be medically or a sociopathy that finally surfaced to become the dominant trait of his personality.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Jaquen,

Upon what evidence do you base the allegation of Al Queda collusion in the attack?

[Guest Raidne]

In a word Raidne, no.

he is a field grade officer, resigning his commission is always an option. Being a medical officer, and a mental health specialist, Him being sent to a situation where he would have to "kill fellow Muslims" is a ridiculous assertion. Medic's, even combat medics, which he would not be aren't issued weapons. even for self protection. He would have been working in a medical unit, presumably continuing the job of consuling soldiers who have mental health issues.

I reiterate, the focus on is religion other than it possibly being a trigger for whatever sparked this tragedy is off-point. There is something very wrong with the person that did this. If it be medically or a sociopathy that finally surfaced to become the dominant trait of his personality.

Oh, I'm sorry Sword. I forget how nitpicky the Board is. I suppose the actual concern was that he could killed as a member of the American military, which is, in Afghanistan, fighting against Muslims. That was the particular religious objection. I suppose the idea that soldiers with non-combat occupational specialties can be killed in Iraq or Afghanistan is less ridiculous?

And while I think the religion-bashing is stupid, surely it's not off-point to consider the concerns that the man himself voiced before undertaking this attack? He apparently felt a conflict with his religious beliefs. Why he then went on a killing spree instead of taking some other action to avoid deployment, however, still begs some kind of explanation.

Personally, I think that's a valid reason to not want to be deployed to the Middle East, but, of course, I do not think it's a valid reason to go on a killing spree. We will find out if he thought differently, and then I suppose we can argue about whether or not that belief indicates that he has some kind of mental disability.

I do think we can all agree that there is something wrong with this person, but I don't agree with you that this is a reason to repeatedly insist that we shut down all other discussion on the subject.