American Politics XXII

[TerraPrime]

I was hoping for a better response from this administration.

Alas. And alark.

With this track record, they had better get the UHC pushed through.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Why ban land mines? Why not just give them a shelf life? With today's technology you could easily make mines that stop working in a year or two (or three, or however long you need). Problem solved.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Can some of you elaborate on all of the implications of this stance on land mines? I'm sure no fan of such an insidious device and my gut is that I don't like this news, but I have never studied it, have no idea of the politics involved, don't know about the legality, etc...

40000 people have died in vietnam since the end of the vietnam war from stepping on unexploded American mines. Almost as many Americans as died in the whole war. People are still getting blown up in France from World War I mines.

Another way of putting that is why would the Obama Administration say that they are choosing the path that they are?

Korea. The US and DPRK are still staring each other down across the worlds largest mine field. Mines are very conducive to the American style of war. Ground and pound. Bottle their forces up on the ground, strike from the air. Mines go a long way to reduce enemy mobility.

[Watcher]

I know I'm beating a dead horse here but this is the first chance I had to respond all day.

You can't realistically fight illegal immigration without a)arresting mostly bown people and b) upsetting families. For sensitive liberal types A&B translate into racism and sadism.

There's also a thing called the U.S. Constitution that says the government can't just arrest people for no reason at all. What seems like a liberal concern to you is actually us being concerned about more amendments then just the one about who can have a fucking gun. The Constitution is protects all people in America, no matter how they got here. In addition in the America I know and want to hold on to there people are innocent until proven guilty. In this case, that means that the police or any authority can't demand for some form of ID with out probable cause, no matter what the color of your skin is.

No, I love tamales. I love them so much I think we should establish a H1-T visa during the holiday season.

And where do you think this "help", i.e. money is going to come from? Queen Creek is probably broke. Maricopa County is definitely broke. The state is beyond broke.

That leaves the federal government to bail us out*. Sweet, I'm all for it. As long as the Chinese are willing to lend us the money. Or we'll tax the rest of the country for our problems.

This lady is a criminal as well. She's driving without a license, has ignored fines and is a shoplifter. While she was too late for the 86 amnesty she probably could have gotten citizenship if she had tried as well. I have no sympathy for her. She was arrested and had to give birth under difficult conditions. I wonder how much she paid for the labor service?

*Arizona will probably be the first state to be bailed out, believe it or not.

When she costs the county over $41 million in less then 15 years, plus several million more as she causes the sheriffs insurance policy to increase due to the preventable and illegal incidents, then I'll listen to your bullshit about how much she is sucking out of the system. Because if you're really that concerned about how deep in a budget hole Arizona is the first person you should want to get rid of is Sheriff fucking Joe Aprio and the black money hole his department is.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

When she costs the county over $41 million in less then 15 years, plus several million more as she causes the sheriffs insurance policy to increase due to the preventable and illegal incidents, then I'll listen to your bullshit about how much she is sucking out of the system. Because if you're really that concerned about how deep in a budget hole Arizona is the first person you should want to get rid of is Sheriff fucking Joe Aprio and the black money hole his department is.

*slow clap*

[Peter Irving]

ETA: Just for the record, the first person to even contemplate calling me a "lliberal" had better be wearing an asbestos suit and running for cover, because the flames, they will be a comin'!

You liberal commie pinko socialist! :P

ON topic couldn't agree more. The guy is a sociopath. And a fascist who deserves something akin to musolini. (Probably has a mistress as well).

[The_BlauerDragon]

You liberal commie pinko socialist! :P

ON topic couldn't agree more. The guy is a sociopath. And a fascist who deserves something akin to musolini. (Probably has a mistress as well).

I'm going to let that one slide because of the emoticon...

I'd like to tell all of the people out there supporting Sheriff Joe to go spend a night (just one night) in tent city... You won't even have to do it in the heat of the summer... try early January (not too hot then, right?). If you don't freeze to death, or catch your death of pneumonia, then we'll skip that subject and we can start talking about all the rest of Joe's abuses.

I said once before, If we ever want to call ourselves the "Good Guys" then we cannot ever do the things that the "bad guys" do. Torture is probably #1 on the list of things that "Bad Guys" do. Allowing people like Sheriff Joe to remain in office is the sort of thing that "Bad Guys" do. Even if you are heartless enough to not think of making a woman give birth while shackled as torture (which, by the way if you are that person let me know now so that if I ever do manage to build a time machine I can go back in time and talk to your mother about a little "procedure" that she should really consider having done), even if you are bigoted enough to consider the color of a person's skin as being "probable cause", and even if you think that making a fat man suffering from gout and meth withdrawals spend the entire day chained to the floor of a cold cell in his underwear without eating (that's what Sheriff Joe's boys did to my older brother on his first day in their jail) is "reasonable" or "funny"... The list of offenses committed by Sheriff Joe and his minions is so varied, and so mind-numbingly long that if you sit down and go through it even YOU will most likely find something in there that is worthy of your condemnation.

And Watcher is right. The 2nd Amendment might be the most important one, but it is in no way the only one that needs protecting.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Really now, KingBread, when Shryke, Pax, Tormund, Swordfish, Ser Scot and Blaeur all agree on something, you might want to reconsider your stance somewhat.

Now we just need KingBread to accuse Commodore of being a liberal and this thread shall be complete!

[Ser Reptitious]

And what's point, exactly? Oh please clue me in, this should be great.

Huh? Are you being deliberately obtuse? The U.S. military (being the most powerful in the world and all that) has been involved in conflicts all over the globe and as a result has obviously been a huge contributor to the landmines problem plaguing the world. As someone else in this thread already pointed out (Shryke, I believe?) the number of innocent civilians killed in places such as Vietnam (even decades after the war ended) is simply mindblowing! Given that the Obama administration actually likes to portray itself as concerned about these sorts of things, signing the damn treaty is probably the least they can do! (One look at the other holdout nations should be more than persuasive enough!)

Or are you honestly saying that since landmine deaths and mutilations are not a problem within the U.S. itself the administration has absolutely no moral obligation to support the banning of this senseless evil?

[Ser Reptitious]

From this story we see that she has 5 kids and works as a house cleaner and tamale maker.

This lady is a criminal as well. [snip] I have no sympathy for her. She was arrested and had to give birth under difficult conditions. I wonder how much she paid for the labor service?

Ok, I realize that I am rather late to the party on this, but I can't resist weighing in on this issue. I think people have been far too harsh on poor old KingBread. I mean, let's look at the facts of this matter, shall we? Clearly this woman was WORKING! And she has a FAMILY! Next thing you know we may find out that she attends regular church services? Is this the kind of person that we want in America? Is that what the country has been reduced to? NO SIR!!! Sure, most of the country has been stupified by the relentless onslaught of the gay liberal abortion judicial activists, but thankfully there are still people like KingBread, RhaegarTar and Sheriff Joe out there to protect the Red White and Blue from this clear and present danger!

KingBread is right, this woman is a criminal. But she's not just any criminal! It'd be one thing if she went on a murderous rampage, or raped little children. But she shoplifted! And (even worse!) drove without a licence!!! Criminals such as this woman are a greater threat to these United States than Hitler, communism, and ACORN combined! As such, Sheriff Joe is completely and utterly justified in pooling all his available resources into apprehending such grave threats to the nation's security. I, for one, therefore salute Sheriff Joe and his staunch defenders!

Now if you will excuse me, I need to help my grandparents find someone to clean out the pool at their gated community in Yuma.

[Inigima]

KingBread is right, this woman is a criminal. But she's not just any criminal! It'd be one thing if she went on a murderous rampage, or raped little children. But she shoplifted! And (even worse!) drove without a licence!!! Criminals such as this woman are a greater threat to these United States than Hitler, communism, and ACORN combined! As such, Sheriff Joe is completely and utterly justified in pooling all his available resources into apprehending such grave threats to the nation's security. I, for one, therefore salute Sheriff Joe and his staunch defenders!

Now if you will excuse me, I need to help my grandparents find someone to clean out the pool at their gated community in Yuma.

I agree with you, but this is not a small thing.

[sToNED_CAT]

3 Navy Seals face court martial for giving terrorist bloody lip.

[sologdin]

sounds like they elected to face the courts martial.

throw the book at them, i say. friggin' fascists.

[Shryke]

3 Navy Seals face court martial for giving terrorist bloody lip.

Wait, a complaint leads to an investigation?!?!?! ZOMG!!!!!

[awesome possum]

Huh? Are you being deliberately obtuse? The U.S. military (being the most powerful in the world and all that) has been involved in conflicts all over the globe and as a result has obviously been a huge contributor to the landmines problem plaguing the world. As someone else in this thread already pointed out (Shryke, I believe?) the number of innocent civilians killed in places such as Vietnam (even decades after the war ended) is simply mindblowing! Given that the Obama administration actually likes to portray itself as concerned about these sorts of things, signing the damn treaty is probably the least they can do! (One look at the other holdout nations should be more than persuasive enough!)

Or are you honestly saying that since landmine deaths and mutilations are not a problem within the U.S. itself the administration has absolutely no moral obligation to support the banning of this senseless evil?

What would a ban today do about landmines placed decades ago?

Please don't use the line senseless evil. It is rather lame. All weapons can be construed as senseless evil, and are in the wrong hands. Or even the right hands. So please, try selling high and mighty somewhere else. I'm not buying.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

3 Navy Seals face court martial for giving terrorist bloody lip.

NEW YORK (CBS) - Three members of the elite Navy SEALs, who were hailed as heroes for capturing one of Iraq's most wanted alleged terrorists, are now being court martialed for roughing him up, according to Fox News.

The detainee claims he was punched during the operation and suffered a bloody lip, reports Fox.

Fox say,

The three, all members of the Navy's elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called a captain's mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial.

[Watcher]

3 Navy Seals face court martial for giving terrorist bloody lip.

Somehow I think there's more to the story then that.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Somehow I think there's more to the story then that.

That was my first thought as well...

But...

There is a side of me that is thinking that the administration might be desperate enough to distance themselves from the issues of torture and abuse that it just may be possible that they were willing to jump at any opportunity to show the world that abusing prisoners is no longer tolerated!

Still, I'm betting that there is a lot more to it than a busted lip.

And, even if there isn't... I guess that one could easily argue that abuses are abuses, no matter how small.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Uh, did you see the part where they opted out of nonjudicial punishment?

[Ser Reptitious]

Ser Possum,

What would a ban today do about landmines placed decades ago?

Of course it's not gonna help clear up the former battlefields that are already mined, but it just might help in the prevention of new one's being created. Wars (unfortunately) still happen, you know.

Please don't use the line senseless evil. It is rather lame. All weapons can be construed as senseless evil, and are in the wrong hands. Or even the right hands. So please, try selling high and mighty somewhere else. I'm not buying.

Yes, all weapons can be construed as senseless evil from an idealistic and pacifist perspective (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that point of view, btw), but I think that most people are realistic enough to realize that war (or at least the threat of it) seems to be an unfortunate by-product of human existence, which makes weapons (in a general sense) a necessary evil for defensive purposes, not a senseless one.

The difference with landmines is they that have virtually no military value left at all in this day and age, since the wars (mostly low-scale) that do erupt these days are very fluid affairs, not the trench warfare type of WWI. So landmines really only end up killing, maiming or terrorizing civilians, even long after a war has ended.

As for the few places (such as the DMZ in Korea) where it's at least possible to advance a military argument, there is ample surveillance technology available today (especially to the U.S. military) that can easily supplant this crude weapon (i.e. the same ones they already use to guard their bases and positions anywhere in the world - I'm pretty sure they don't lay mines around them).

The fact is that landmines today still extract a horrific human toll for virually zero military purpose. That is why it's a senseless evil. And if that sounds "high and mighty" to you, I suggest that you make a little trip to places such as Cambodia, Vietnam, Croatia or Bosnia (to name but a few) and see with your own eyes the numerous fenced off areas (sometimes absolutely gorgeous mountain areas, but more often fallow fields that could yield productive crops) due to the presence of landmines. Also don't hesitate to stop in the surrounding villages to look at the graves of children that were blown up while playing in such fields (since the areas where landmines are buried are far too numerous to even know where they all are and mark them accordingly). You will also find no shortage of people with missing limbs.

It's easy to be dismissive when you're scrutinizing this issue from the sheltered safety of a country that does not have to deal with such matters firsthand.