Peter Watts beaten and arrested at US Border

[S John]

I'm not a big fan of dickhole police but you do have to use your head in these situations.

Police have a job to do that might involve them having to interfere with you. If it comes to that, you can either comply and go about your business or you can be difficult and risk detention or an ass whippin'. Thats just the way it is. Whether I like it or not, I have to accept those facts.

Officers working a border checkpoint are trained to deal with anything ranging from catching smugglers to dealing with terrorism. They are taught to act and neutralize. If some guy is causing a problem they probably don't know or give a shit that he's an author. Author asses are kicked just as easily as other folks. If they perceive a threat it is actually their responsibility to get it under control.

Airport and border security is a huge pain in the ass. Nobody likes it, but its pretty much a necessary evil and we all have to deal with it. The only thing that is more annoying than security itself is the pompous dickface that makes a scene and slows everybody down because they think the rules don't apply to them. There are other people in line here buddy, and we've all got somewhere to be.

I very seriously doubt that the border cops just randomly beat him up for no reason. In fact, I'll bet that 'beat him up' is an exaggeration. I can envision myself sitting two cars behind this guy at the checkpoint daydreaming of going up there to get a kick in, because now this asshole has made me late.

[zollo]

Until sources other than boingboing.net and the man's own blog got something sensible to say I am going to go out on a limb and figure that police protocol was, more or less, followed. Because guess what.... for every police brutality case there are thousands as many cases that are handled perfectly fine on a daily basis. Fucking "hate the police" mentality, grow up.

eta: or what sjohn said.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

As Yagathai pointed out the standard for a Terry "Stop and pat down" is "reasonable suspision". It's a very low standard. I wonder if there is there any limit on what can and can't be searched during a border crossing? I think the "right to privacy" as you cross and international border is very limited if it exists at all.

That said kicking somone's ass for getting out of their car does seem over the top. I'm curious to see what other information comes to light and how the Border Guards try justify their actions. I'm really curious to see if there was a camera there.

[Kalbear]

To be fair, it's perfectly reasonable to suspect any and all Canadians of being violent terrorists. Ever since 9-11 we've learned that lesson all too well, and should suspect any and all canucks of being homicidal sociopaths.

It's not profiling if it's true.

[Shryke]

Those Chris Rock rules should be followed even MORE so with Border Guards then with Police. Border Guards can fuck with you WAY more then Police ever could.

Some of them are assholes, some of them are great guys, some are in between. Just like normal people. Don't make the situation any worse.

[S John]

To be fair, it's perfectly reasonable to suspect any and all Canadians of being violent terrorists. Ever since 9-11 we've learned that lesson all too well, and should suspect any and all canucks of being homicidal sociopaths.

It's not profiling if it's true.

Yea 'cause it'd go over real well if we only stopped brown people at our borders.

Everyone's gotta do it, simple as that.

[kairparavel]

A lot of it boils down to the mindset of the CBP officers on both sides of the border.

While the Canadian agents are mandated to keep the bad guys out, and only let the good guys in, ultimately what they care about is what you're bringing in so they can tariff, duty and tax the snot out of it. I had a car full of baby stuff I was bringing as gifts to my sister when she was first pregnant. I bought it all in Virginia and drove back for a week's vacation in Ottawa. Diapers. Soap. Onesies. Toys. You name it. The Canadians tore through my car. First the trunk, where the diapers spilled out, then the boxes of clothes and other stuff. They even went into my suitcase and knapsack (no doubt looking for the baby). They were getting angrier and angrier because nothing was over 60 CDN (I had all my receipts) so they were unable to charge me duty. They begrudgingly sent me on my way.

The Americans are on a strict don't ask, we'll assume you're looking to come into our country, never leave, steal our jobs, use our social network and possibly even get up to no good. If you go to the USCIS website? or the CBP website, it tells you agents assume your intent is to stay permanently, and the onus is on you, the traveller, to prove otherwise. I've only twice had hassles with the Americans and it boiled down to being my fault. The first was my crossing back into the US from the Dominican without my original H1B documentation. The second time I was detained at Ottawa airport and interviewed for an hour. Again, totally my fault. And the two agents were complete jerks to me, because that's what they're trained to do if you give them cause.

If you don't give them cause, they're polite and businesslike. In fact some are downright friendly, as I encountered in Ogdensburg last week.

I found out last week there's been some changes to protocol and procedures when crossing by land into the US. I was escorted to my parking spot, escorted into the building and someone took my keys while my visa was being processed. Crossing the border isn't like going through the drive thru at Wendys. You can't just suddenly decide to leave without raising suspicions. And you NEVER get out of your vehicle unless it's been requested. If you attempt to get out of your car, you are warned. Then it escalates.

[Shryke]

Yea 'cause it'd go over real well if we only stopped brown people at our borders.

You do.

I've never been stopped at the border. Cause I'm a clean cut looking white guy.

My buddy who is a clean cut looking Iranian guy gets stopped every single time.

[kairparavel]

I'm really curious to see if there was a camera there.

There are cameras in all the lanes to record plates and vehicles and over the buildings surrounding the POE.

Airport and border security is a huge pain in the ass. Nobody likes it, but its pretty much a necessary evil and we all have to deal with it. The only thing that is more annoying than security itself is the pompous dickface that makes a scene and slows everybody down because they think the rules don't apply to them.

and this is exactly what I thought of, when I originally read the OP

[S John]

You do.

I've never been stopped at the border. Cause I'm a clean cut looking white guy.

My buddy who is a clean cut looking Iranian guy gets stopped every single time.

If I were giving a presentation to aliens I could use a photo of Peter Watts as exhibit A of a 'white guy.'

And I'm also a clean cut white guy, I've gotten the full search at US airports several times.

[Guest Raidne]

I've always figured that border police could probably straight up disappear you off to god knows where a lot easier than a regular police could. Or possibly even FBI, for that matter. I don't mess with those people.

Scott is right - you have very few rights. And, more importantly, if one of the few you do have is violated, there will likely not be anything you can do about it.

[Yagathai]

As Yagathai pointed out the standard for a Terry "Stop and pat down" is "reasonable suspision". It's a very low standard. I wonder if there is there any limit on what can and can't be searched during a border crossing? I think the "right to privacy" as you cross and international border is very limited if it exists at all.

I did point that out, I think, but... not here. Only in my blog. ;)

[Jora]

Stepping out of your car is seriously considered threatening in the US? There are people who think that's the way it should be?

[Werthead]

So, he was crossing back into the US, on his way home to Canada, after already being inside the US? Why else would US CBP search him? Unless he was driving a semi and needed export documents, he should have (in theory) paid his toll and kept on trucking over the bridge to CDN CBP. I've crossed a bajillion times at 1000 Islands Bridge and Massena, both Ontario//NY State POE and once at Pigeon River, in Ontario/MN. I have never been detained/searched by the outgoing CBP so, this raises some flags for me. More details would be needed to get any sense of what actually happened.

According to the information provided on the two sites (BoingBoing and the author's own blog), this particular border crossing requires you to go through a check on the US side as well as the Canadian one even when entering Canada. The reason is not known, but Doctorow also reported having to go through a US check there when crossing over into Canada.

Apparently a major 'red flag' is raised when it's a rental car as well, as it was in this case.

Stepping out of your car is seriously considered threatening in the US? There are people who think that's the way it should be?

Stepping out of your car when you've been told not to and it's not impossible that you have a (perfectly legal) assault weapon on your person or to hand is considered threatening, I believe. As for the rest, any other behaviour or repression of rights can be waived by playing the '9/11 card'.

[Shryke]

If I were giving a presentation to aliens I could use a photo of Peter Watts as exhibit A of a 'white guy.'

And I'm also a clean cut white guy, I've gotten the full search at US airports several times.

Airports do random searches. Sometimes you get drawn. What's your point here?

Stepping out of your car is seriously considered threatening in the US? There are people who think that's the way it should be?

When pulled over by the cops or stopped at a checkpoint? Hell ya getting out of the car is threatening.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Jora,

Stepping out of your car is seriously considered threatening in the US? There are people who think that's the way it should be?

I don't think anyone is saying it's okay to beat someone for getting out of their car.

All I and others are saying is there is a lot we don't know here and individuals have extremely limited privacy rights, if any, at a border crossings so getting out of your car to argue with the border guards is not very smart.

[Yagathai]

Stepping out of your car is seriously considered threatening in the US? There are people who think that's the way it should be?

Yes. Traffic stops are very dangerous for a police officer, and they need to maintain control of the situation in order to provide for the safety of both themselves and the person they're stopping.

When you step outside of the car during a traffic stop, it's either to run away or to initiative a confrontation with the officer. Either way, it's a bad thing. The cop can't do his/her job without ensuring that you're not a threat to yourself or to others. Ideally, you're sitting in your car with your hands in plain view, but having you face-down in the gutter with your hands cuffed behind your back works as well, and that's option B.

[Altherion]

I wonder if there is there any limit on what can and can't be searched during a border crossing? I think the "right to privacy" as you cross and international border is very limited if it exists at all.

They more or less have carte blanche. The various national rules against search (e.g. the 4th amendment in the US) do not apply at the border; they have every right to search you without giving any justification for it. That said, in my experience border guards, TSA officers and their European counterparts are generally cordial as long as you're polite and follow instructions. The French-Swiss border I cross every day to get to work is practically non-existent. Ever since Switzerland joined the Schengen zone, the guards don't even show up anymore (they're there at most once a week). In my year and a half of doing this, I have never been searched.

The border control at the airports is far more solid and of course they search everything because you might be carrying a water bottle (or perhaps Philadelphia cream cheese which apparently counts as a liquid in Brussels). That said, they've never searched me beyond the standard airport security check and in the couple of instances they objected to stuff (e.g. the aforementioned cream cheese), they allowed me to go back and check the bag with it. The immigration control people also haven't asked anything beyond the obvious questions like "Where are you coming from?" and "What is the purpose of your visit?". Basically, follow Chris Rock's rules and nobody gets hurt.

[Yagathai]

All I and others are saying is there is a lot we don't know here and individuals have extremely limited privacy rights, if any, at a border crossing so getting out of your car to argue with the border guards is not very smart.

During the period of temporary detention allowed by the Terry doctrine (like traffic stops or pat-downs during a street interview), the police have the right to demand reasonable compliance with their orders to ensure your mutual safety -- things like "keep your hands out of your pockets" and "don't get out of your car", "stand up" and that kind of thing. If you fail to comply with their commands, they are within their legal rights to restrain you, forcibly if necessary, again for safety's sake.

[Werthead]

According to one of the commentators on Watts' blog, that particular US checkpoint is not on the border, but a small distance away from it:

he was at a pre-border checkpoint, which is not covered under the right-to-search laws that cover border checkpoints. He did NOT have to consent to a search, and they had no right to continue doing it if he did not consent.

True or bullshit?