Peter Watts beaten and arrested at US Border

[Datepalm]

I'm kind of curious as to what i'm supposed to feel about this. If this was some hugely common problem, with perfectly innocent people getting 2 years jail time! and losing their homes all the time, I imagine we would have heard about it already. Or even if we hadn't, and its more than just this guy...really unpleasant things happen to people all the time, all over the world. In terms of useful things I could be giving money to, this is extremely far down the list. Am I supposed to care more becuase he writes SF?

[S John]

Airports do random searches. Sometimes you get drawn. What's your point here?

That if border guards are profiling then thats on the guard, its not policy.

Off topic here either way soo... my apologies to the thread.

[Yagathai]

According to one of the commentators on Watts' blog, that particular US checkpoint is not on the border, but a small distance away from it:

True or bullshit?

Bullshit... ish. The near-border crossing vs. border crossing issue is a legal grey area post 9-11, but American law enforcement officials don't actually need a warrant to search a car they pull over if they have probable cause that the vehicle contains contraband or evidence of a crime. That's been repeatedly tested, settled law since 1925. Certain states require a more narrow interpretation of the law, but there are only a few of them.

[Kouran]

Well not following a police officers orders is just asking to get yer ass whipped. Most police shootings are during traffic stops so when you get out of your car alarm bells go off in the officers heads.

Why do you think most officers take the restraining strap off their holster when they stop you in your car.

[Kouran]

Bullshit... ish. The near-border crossing vs. border crossing issue is a legal grey area post 9-11, but American law enforcement officials don't actually need a warrant to search a car they pull over if they have probable cause that the vehicle contains contraband or evidence of a crime. That's been repeatedly tested, settled law since 1925. Certain states require a more narrow interpretation of the law, but there are only a few of them.

I dont know about that particular crossing but I listened to a news story once about some crossings that werent on the true border, due to geographical limitations. Hard to have a meaningful checkpoint if for example the crossing is on an overpass or some such.

[felice]

American law enforcement officials don't actually need a warrant to search a car they pull over if they have probable cause that the vehicle contains contraband or evidence of a crime.

In this case, I very much doubt they had probable cause for anything.

[Werthead]

I dont know about that particular crossing but I listened to a news story once about some crossings that werent on the true border, due to geographical limitations. Hard to have a meaningful checkpoint if for example the crossing is on an overpass or some such.

The border crossing was in Port Huron, Michigan, so I'm guessing the border crossing in question is the Blue Water Bridge. The issue seems to be clouded, however, because Watts was stopped by American law enforcement officials despite the fact he was crossing back over into Canada. This appears to be where confusion is setting in, because at pretty much every other border stop the US authorities wouldn't get involved, it's up to the Canadian border officials to investigate what's coming into the country. If border officials had to check what was leaving the country as well as coming in, the entire system would grind to a halt and it would be pointless if their counterparts over the border are going to be checking the same vehicle five minutes later.

Another suggestion is that this wasn't even a border crossing at all but an internal Department of Homeland Security checkpoint, which is covered by different regulations.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Felice,

In this case, I very much doubt they had probable cause for anything.

You're missing the point. Border Guards don't need probable cause or a warrent to search a vehicle entering the US. It is subject to search in order to be allowed entry at all. In other words if you don't want to be searched don't try to enter the US.

[eta]

However, If as Wert indicates this wasn't a border crossing more standard rules may apply.

[Myshkin]

I have serious doubts about Watts' story. I've had my run-ins with cops, and I've dealt with my share of boarder patrol officers, but I somehow don't believe these boarder guards beat this guy up just for the fun of it. There is a reason cops ask you to stay in your car: safety. If you get out of your car, you've compromised their safety. If you won't get back in your car they'll take you down. It is a matter of safety, and cops everywhere take that seriously.

Stepping out of your car is seriously considered threatening in the US? There are people who think that's the way it should be?

YES. As has been stated already, most police shootings in the US occur during traffic stops. It's pretty hard to safely conduct a search with a belligerent a-hole standing behind you.

[Werthead]

This appears to be what Watts ran afoul of, the so-called 'Constitution-Free Zone' which extends to 100 miles inside the USA's borders (and includes almost 2/3 of the USA's population) and is guarded by these 'internal checkpoints'.

Brilliantly, according to a representative on the same article from Customs and Border Protection, you can refuse a search order on your vehicle even within the 100-mile zone and it cannot be cited as probable cause. However, law enforcement personnel can still search you 'if they believe they have probable cause' even if, in fact, they don't. There isn't any information on being able to use that fact to challenge a stop and search, although I imagine a good lawyer could look into that.

[Zoë Sumra]

Yes. Traffic stops are very dangerous for a police officer, and they need to maintain control of the situation in order to provide for the safety of both themselves and the person they're stopping.

When you step outside of the car during a traffic stop, it's either to run away or to initiative a confrontation with the officer. Either way, it's a bad thing. The cop can't do his/her job without ensuring that you're not a threat to yourself or to others. Ideally, you're sitting in your car with your hands in plain view, but having you face-down in the gutter with your hands cuffed behind your back works as well, and that's option B.

That's really weird. I don't have a car and have never therefore had cause to test it, but I'd always been told to get out of your car because you're seen as a threat by the police when you're in the car.

[The Stranger]

I've had my car searched twice, been detained for questioning once, and, the last time, the guy threatened to have my car impounded because I was crossing the MI/Canada border without a pasport (which was not legally necessary or even customary at the time). My best guess is that they flagged my license after the first search, and I was getting messed with ever since because of that.

in 2005 I was crossing back into the US from Vancouver, without my passport (legal at the time), and I told him I could show him my ID and had my passport number memorized. I asked if he could cross-check them, and he said "we're not the US passport agency."

[...yes, yes I think they are.]

but so I asked him what he recommended I do, and he said "why don't you go back to canada."

then the fuck just let us back in.

as for scenic michigan's border crossings, the most memorable one I remember is 2007, where a guy dying of a heart attack in an ambulance was being taken into Detroit from Windsor. so the guards strip searched the ambulance, and the guy died in the meantime.

[john]

I noticed at worldcon that he constantly has a pair of cheap looking plastic headphones around his neck. Maybe they asked him to take them off and it made him mad.

[The Warlock of Qarth]

I find it striking that whenever I hear Americans talk about their police, it's always with a slight undercurrent of fear, intimidation and a "Never question the cops or you might get your ass kicked" mentality. It reminds me more of former Warsaw Pact countries than a nation that prides itself on being a bastion of freedom. Do they even teach American police officers about defusing conflicts before they escalate or are they too accustomed to using tasers and pepperspray to settle things nowadays?

[Marcelo Rebelo Firqoralas]

Wow. I see that the Stockholm syndrome is pretty wide spread around here.

[Bellis]

I seem to have had unusually good luck with the US/Canada border. The last time I drove over, entering the US south of Montreal, I had to stop and enter the office to get my visa stamped and I-94 re-issued. I was nervous about certain discrepencies between my visa documentation from the INS and my passport from Canada, but I ended up commiserating with the agent over the incompetency of the folks over at Homeland Security and I was sent on my way.

[lessthanluke]

I find it striking that whenever I hear Americans talk about their police, it's always with a slight undercurrent of fear, intimidation and a "Never question the cops or you might get your ass kicked" mentality. It reminds me more of former Warsaw Pact countries than a nation that prides itself on being a bastion of freedom. Do they even teach American police officers about defusing conflicts before they escalate or are they too accustomed to using tasers and pepperspray to settle things nowadays?

Yeh some of the responses in this thread are very strange.

[Shryke]

I find it striking that whenever I hear Americans talk about their police, it's always with a slight undercurrent of fear, intimidation and a "Never question the cops or you might get your ass kicked" mentality. It reminds me more of former Warsaw Pact countries than a nation that prides itself on being a bastion of freedom. Do they even teach American police officers about defusing conflicts before they escalate or are they too accustomed to using tasers and pepperspray to settle things nowadays?

While I can't speak for the US (where apparently the cops ARE worse), generally it's just stupid to piss off the cops. And Border Guards even more so.

It doesn't matter how "Right" Mr. Watts turns out to be. Nothing any judge is gonna say is going to ripple backwards through time and unbeat his ass.

Pissing off the cops is a bad idea.

[Guest Ro_]

That's really weird. I don't have a car and have never therefore had cause to test it, but I'd always been told to get out of your car because you're seen as a threat by the police when you're in the car.

Do you know what the rationale is for that? The google says: " Results 1 - 10 of about 1,670,000 for person gets out of car and shoots cop"; " Results 1 - 10 of about 1,980,000 for person gets out of car and shoots police." ; "Results 1 - 10 of about 1,350,000 for police shot during traffic stop"

Your car acts as confinement while the officer does his thing. Once you get out of your car, you can physically threaten and attack, or even shoot the officer. Its triple stupid to get out of the car if there are others in your car. You force the officer to try to split his attention regarding potential threats.

I find it striking that whenever I hear Americans talk about their police, it's always with a slight undercurrent of fear, intimidation and a "Never question the cops or you might get your ass kicked" mentality. It reminds me more of former Warsaw Pact countries than a nation that prides itself on being a bastion of freedom. Do they even teach American police officers about defusing conflicts before they escalate or are they too accustomed to using tasers and pepperspray to settle things nowadays?

This is the price we pay for our wonderful second amendment. This country would fall apart if rednecks weren't able to shoot critters, critters who threaten our national security.

I have been a fan of Watts for years, but IMO, he did a really stupid thing there.

[Myshkin]

I find it striking that whenever I hear Americans talk about their police, it's always with a slight undercurrent of fear, intimidation and a "Never question the cops or you might get your ass kicked" mentality. It reminds me more of former Warsaw Pact countries than a nation that prides itself on being a bastion of freedom. Do they even teach American police officers about defusing conflicts before they escalate or are they too accustomed to using tasers and pepperspray to settle things nowadays?

I have no problem question the police whenever I feel the need to. If a cop asks if he can search me I say no. I don't however fight him if he decides to search me anyway. I take that up in court. There are right ways and wrong ways to go about questioning the authorities, and it sounds to me like Watts chose the wrong way. If Watts felt that the search was illegal he should have made an official complaint, or taken it up in court. He should NOT have gotten out of his car, an action that puts the border agent in danger, and he should have gotten back in his car when told to do so. Did he deserve the treatment he got? I have no idea, I'd need more info before I made that judgment. Is he completely innocent in the whole incident? It doesn't sound like it so far.

On another note, I've just been to Doctorow's blog and found that any comment that is not completely in favor of Watts' position has had all of its vowels removed, and a moderator's note linking to this added. Pretty shitty if you ask me.