Dragon Age: Origins IV

[Jon AS]

It was tough, part of me agreed with some of Logain's reasoning - but I couldn't let it slide.

I felt a bit like a hypocrite though, having spared Sten to redeem himself but then handing Logain over to Alistair for 'justice'.

I'm actually a little confused on this playthrough - I gave Anora the throne, she was happy, Alistair was happy, (I wasn't that happy, but it would work) - but now everyone is still referring to Alistair as being King.

I guess I'll see what happens in the credits, I'm 30mins away from the archdemon fight in Ft. Drakon.

Loghain is far worse than Sten. Sten had a moment of panic, killed a bunch of people then sat around for days waiting for the authorities to arrest him and subject him to his deserved punishment. Loghain purposefully formed alliances with bloodmages and ambitious nobles to eliminate the Grey Wardens, the king as well as all possible contenders for the throne so he could seize power. His excuse is that he is crazy, but instead of realising the enorminity of what he had done he kept upping the ante, causing a civil war, hiring assassins, selling people into slavery, kidnapping, torture etc.

The end sequence seems to be quite bugged. Everyone, including Alistair, acting like you made him king even if you didn't is a known issue.

On the topic of Loghain's paranoia and insanity? You don't quite get the full story of his relationship with King Cailan, Grey Wardens, and former King Maric without reading the prequel novels. He isn't Tywin Lannister sacrificing for the good of his family or for power, he's the single most dedicated individual to Feralden since the Silver Knight guy from 400 years ago that united Feralden into one nation.

No, Loghain is a guy who'll sacrifice everything for vengeance against Orlais. He can't move on from the old conflict (being understandably traumatised by events from his childhood) and is very good at lying to himself about his true motivations. When you confront him at the Landsmeet he has almost convinced himself that you're an Orlesian agent sent to prepare the second conquest of Ferelden.

I made the mistake of reading the first book. I was expecting something pretty dire, but it exceeded my worst nightmares. It's possible that every character was supposed to come across as insufferable, but I doubt it. And let's not get into plot or pacing. Argh. And it doesn't even serve as a paricularly good introduction to the world. Truly terrible.

In the book Loghain is as much of a manipulative bastard as he is in the game. In his supreme arrogance he assumes he knows better than everyone around him and makes unilateral decisions based on that, lies to the guy who is supposed to be his best friend when it serves his purpose. Maric is completely hapless, though he is supposedly so charismatic that Loghain comes to admire him. Only that never really comes across IMO, so it actually looks like Loghain is deluding himself into believing that Maric is great, otherwise why would the girl Loghain is interested in be pining after him? It's like whenever reality doesn't conform to his expectations, he escapes into his personal fantasy of an ideal world. Then he sets about to make the world more like his fantasies, using any means, no matter matter how heinous.

[a wooden chair]

I made the mistake of reading the first book. I was expecting something pretty dire, but it exceeded my worst nightmares. It's possible that every character was supposed to come across as insufferable, but I doubt it. And let's not get into plot or pacing. Argh. And it doesn't even serve as a paricularly good introduction to the world. Truly terrible.

Won't disagree with you there. The Calling was difficult to read, and that is a conservative opinion. I did not read the first book however and I'm curious to learn what Loghain's first betrayal of Maric was. I know in the second book that Maric keeps thinking of when Flemmeth told him that Loghain would betray him twice, and I'm fairly certain that second betrayal is what happened at Ostagar.

Unless of course he is also the reason Maric got "lost at sea".

In the book Loghain is as much of a manipulative bastard as he is in the game. In his supreme arrogance he assumes he knows better than everyone around him and makes unilateral decisions based on that, lies to the guy who is supposed to be his best friend when it serves his purpose. Maric is completely hapless, though he is supposedly so charismatic that Loghain comes to admire him. Only that never really comes across IMO, so it actually looks like Loghain is deluding himself into believing that Maric is great, otherwise why would the girl Loghain is interested in be pining after him? It's like whenever reality doesn't conform to his expectations, he escapes into his personal fantasy of an ideal world. Then he sets about to make the world more like his fantasies, using any means, no matter matter how heinous.

Maric becomes a great king after the events of The Calling because Rowan did most of the leading before she died. In fact their dynamic was completely like the Cailan and Anora marriage. But between Rowan dying and the end of The Calling, and after Maric is pronounced dead, it's Loghain and Anora that kept Feralden safe.

And then the judgement about dealing with blood mages etc etc? That's Grey Warden mentality and we all know it. Alistair was not your typical Grey Warden and there are instances in the game where even Duncan says he would use Blood Magic in a heartbeat to defeat the Blight. As for saying he's worse than Sten, not to me he isn't. Sten is a product of a culture far more abhorrent than Loghain's fantasies, especially when you get him talking about what they do to mages.

I find the only thing Loghain did that wasn't loosely justified is giving Arl Howe as much power as he did, which subsequently allowed most of the shit Loghain is blamed for even though with much of it he wasn't aware until after the fact.. at least as far as I could discern he wasn't aware.

[Tobin]

I find the only thing Loghain did that wasn't loosely justified is giving Arl Howe as much power as he did, which subsequently allowed most of the shit Loghain is blamed for even though with much of it he wasn't aware until after the fact.. at least as far as I could discern he wasn't aware.

That was the key reason I didn't bring up Howe at the landsmeet - Loghain could turn and plead innocence, citing that Howe did that stuff on his own.

I just picked up the books at lunch, I'll give them a try.

[Jon AS]

Won't disagree with you there. The Calling was difficult to read, and that is a conservative opinion. I did not read the first book however and I'm curious to learn what Loghain's first betrayal of Maric was. I know in the second book that Maric keeps thinking of when Flemmeth told him that Loghain would betray him twice, and I'm fairly certain that second betrayal is what happened at Ostagar.

Flemeth told Maric Loghain would betray him "each time worse than the one before" or something like that. I.e. more than twice. The first time involved withholding vital information from Maric, resulting in Maric killing his lover and pushing Maric into the kind of state of mind that Loghain found useful, willing to slaughter Orlesians and collaborators indiscriminately by any means Loghain suggested.

And then the judgement about dealing with blood mages etc etc? That's Grey Warden mentality and we all know it. Alistair was not your typical Grey Warden and there are instances in the game where even Duncan says he would use Blood Magic in a heartbeat to defeat the Blight. As for saying he's worse than Sten, not to me he isn't. Sten is a product of a culture far more abhorrent than Loghain's fantasies, especially when you get him talking about what they do to mages.

I find the only thing Loghain did that wasn't loosely justified is giving Arl Howe as much power as he did, which subsequently allowed most of the shit Loghain is blamed for even though with much of it he wasn't aware until after the fact.. at least as far as I could discern he wasn't aware.

Loghain isn't a Grey Warden. Loghain is a Teyrn of Ferelden who conspired to have Arl Eamon and the entire Cousland family murdered so that they wouldn't get in his way after he'd arranged for a convenient death for the king. Even if you really want to absolve him of everything that comes after, the actions Loghain took before Ostagar are all on his own head and are not only evil, unlawful and completely unjustified but premeditated. That's what makes Loghain far worse than Sten (well that and the much higher body count).

ETA:

I just picked up the books at lunch, I'll give them a try.

I guess it's too late to advice against that. I'd suggest to pick up some booze before attempting to brave those perilous pages.

[Tobin]

I guess it's too late to advice against that. I'd suggest to pick up some booze before attempting to brave those perilous pages.

Yeah, I didn't see everyone's opinion until after I got back.

I have a 6-pack of Fosters and a few Blue Moon left in the fridge, could get started on the NYears festivities early...

[Guy Kilmore]

That was the key reason I didn't bring up Howe at the landsmeet - Loghain could turn and plead innocence, citing that Howe did that stuff on his own.

I just picked up the books at lunch, I'll give them a try.

Actually bringing up Howe at the Landsmeet nets you a bigger positive than not bringing him up if you freed people from the Dungeons and let the nobles know before hand. Loghain denies it, but then gets called a liar by another two nobles.

ETA: And the Chantery also calls him a liar.

[a wooden chair]

Flemeth told Maric Loghain would betray him "each time worse than the one before" or something like that. I.e. more than twice. The first time involved withholding vital information from Maric, resulting in Maric killing his lover and pushing Maric into the kind of state of mind that Loghain found useful, willing to slaughter Orlesians and collaborators indiscriminately by any means Loghain suggested.

Loghain isn't a Grey Warden. Loghain is a Teyrn of Ferelden who conspired to have Arl Eamon and the entire Cousland family murdered so that they wouldn't get in his way after he'd arranged for a convenient death for the king. Even if you really want to absolve him of everything that comes after, the actions Loghain took before Ostagar are all on his own head and are not only evil, unlawful and completely unjustified but premeditated. That's what makes Loghain far worse than Sten (well that and the much higher body count).

ETA:

I guess it's too late to advice against that. I'd suggest to pick up some booze before attempting to brave those perilous pages.

re Jon AS: I stand corrected on a few counts. In fact I actually respect him as an antagonist more now after you filled me in on the first book's events.

re Tobin: The books are useful for learning more about the world of Dragon Age, but I wouldn't curse the new year/decade by reading those at the turnover/start.

[Galactus]

Loghain is an interesting character. Sympatethic to some extent, but you can't really call him justifiable.

Incidentally, I do find the entire blood magic/demons vs. Darkspawn and their taint aspect interesting.

I also think they actually get across that treating mages like shit is not neccessarily a bad idea. Considering the risks.

[Jon AS]

Incidentally, I do find the entire blood magic/demons vs. Darkspawn and their taint aspect interesting.

I also think they actually get across that treating mages like shit is not neccessarily a bad idea. Considering the risks.

I like the demons in Dragon Age as well. They are sentient, yet strongly driven by instincts and they have only the vaguest grasp of what the "real world" is actually like.

The Darkspawn may essentially be orcs, but Bioware get points for delving into how this unnatural species reproduces. The Broodmother section in the Dead Trenches was seriously disturbing.

The Chantry's anti-magic stance is of course routed in religious doctrine rather than rational preventative measures, and said doctrine came about because of the opressive magocracy of the Tevinter Imperium. I think it is rather clear that the current status quo is a bad way to treat it. It is repressive enough to create massive resentment amongst the mages, but nowhere near as harsh as would be necessary to keep them from causing lots of trouble when enough of them band together. Creating a class of social pariahs with superpowers is asking for trouble. If you're going to do that you'd better be prepared to give them the full Qunari treatment, because sooner or later they are going to rebel without a designated hero with a reload button around to stop them.

[Galactus]

Of course, that's what the Templars are for. There's clearly a balance going on: Yes, you need Mages (to fight the Darkspawn, or keep the qunari away) and you need to keep them together, but you also have to keep them under close supervision.

My impression was that the Qunari treatment is very good at keeping mages from causing trouble, but also means they can't be utilized.

I also like the hints/implications that the demons and the darkspawn are two different kinds of nastiness and that one might be the key to defeating the other. (There's a mention in Warden's Peak that demons taught Man Blood Magic and that therefore you can't use it against them...)

[Tobin]

Actually, I was exploring a few ideas about the mage/templar dynamic in a FFic I was writing (yeah, yeah, I know).

The PC brings up to Wynne that it is possible that the Circle has, in fact, encouraged Abominations to be created. Mages are browbeaten from the beginning about how they are essentially a heartbeat away from evil, that they are surrounded by men who's job it is to slaughter them. That kind of environment can weaken even the strongest minds, or turn them to rebellion.

The idea is that Morrigan and her mother were alone, without the 'protection' of the Templars, but they never became Abominations. In fact, Morrigan makes a sarcastic statement to Alistair during a party banter where the Circle would have been a better place to learn because her mother didn't have 'nearly enough abominations running around'.

The Mage Collective is another indicator that the Circle may be more damaging than helpful.

What if the fact that there are templars around to be a 'failsafe' has made the Circle mages lax - knowing that they won't be able to do much damage if they lose themselves. This weaker mindset may actually allow demons to gain a foothold - desperate people are easy to corrupt.

[Jon AS]

The idea is that Morrigan and her mother were alone, without the 'protection' of the Templars, but they never became Abominations.

Actually Flemeth almost certainly is an abomination, albeit not a run-of-the-mill version. Morrigan acknowledges this herself.

[Brude]

Yeah, my impression is that Flemeth either is an Abomination or perhaps even WAS one. It just occurred to me, maybe she somehow got control of the demon that possessed her, and now she draws from it's power for her own will, instead of it using her to do it's bidding. There's no reason these sorts of things can't be a two-way street, no?

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Alternatively, she might simply be the demon, full stop. There was that succubus or whatever in the tower that was at least an indication that, like, demons might have some nuance, man.

[Galactus]

Actually Flemeth almost certainly is an abomination, albeit not a run-of-the-mill version. Morrigan acknowledges this herself.

Note that, for a given value of Abomination, *Wynne* qualifies...

I don't think Flemeth is an abomination personally, I think she's a Dragon or an Old God or possibly has the soul of one at least.

What Morrigan talks about how the Archdemon works and how she intends to "channel" it into her child is just a *bit* too similar to what Flemeth threatens to do.

[Jon AS]

Note that, for a given value of Abomination, *Wynne* qualifies...

I don't think Flemeth is an abomination personally, I think she's a Dragon or an Old God or possibly has the soul of one at least.

What Morrigan talks about how the Archdemon works and how she intends to "channel" it into her child is just a *bit* too similar to what Flemeth threatens to do.

It's all kept very ambiguous*. I've also thought that Flemeth might be the result of an earlier use of the same ritual Morrigan proposes. But the legend of Flemeth, which Morrigan (who is as close to an authority on Flemeth as there is in the world) claims contains some truth, has Flemeth as an abomination.

*Though the ambiguity of a lot of the background story might be more of a flavour thing (i.e. all sources are written "in character") rather than the writers saying "this might not be true at all". They certainly seem to treat the "Chantry version" of the creation of the Darkspawn as canon when talking about it, for example.

[Odie]

Tobin, if you play a guy and romance Morrigan, she'll explain more about Flemeth and what she knows/has learned. She does outright say that Flemeth has a demon inside of her. Whether or not she's telling the truth, I can't say.

Calling Flemeth's soul a "demon" though could easily be a subtle bit of misdirection to get the PC to kill Flemeth without becoming wise to her plans. She wouldn't want ANY word of THAT part of her plan getting out beforehand - there are two concrete examples of this - her "dream" in the Fade, where's she's as awake as you are, and the fact that she tells the Guardian to go to hell when he tries to probe her memories. She could easily be twisting her words to make Flemeth sound more evil than she is, while not mentioning even the possibility that the archdemon/old god could live on beyond the end of the Blight.

[grozeng]

So I started my game. Played a little last night and the night before as a Dwarven Noble Warrior. I am now in Ostagar. A couple of questions on gameplay (and I apologize if they have been answered in other threads).

1) I turned off auto-level up so I could decide where to put my points and talents. I got level 4 in the woods outside of Ostagar and it auto-leveled me up? Why did it not let me do it myself?

2) I can't open any chests. It always says insufficient skill. What do I need to do to open chests?

3) It looks like you heal after fights without resting like you had to in Baldur's Gate. Do you need to rest in this game?

4) I saw that there are choices for warriors like Templar, Berserker, etc. Which ones are good?

Thanks

[Jacen]

Grozeng

1. I do not know, it should not have done that ?

2. You need a rogue in your party, someone with lock picking skill. Leliana, or yourself, if a rogue.

3. You don't need to rest.

4. Specializations totally depend on what you want to do with the character. Read a guide online and pick one.

Got the game for PC on xmas and have been only playing it a lot lately. I'm really digging it.

I really like this game and I'm excited about it...so now I'm gonna rip on little things I don't like about it.

Note this is tongue in cheek nit-picking, don't get too upset.

1. Floating gear on your back. Cmon, its 2010. Can they not like...show that my sword is on a leather back scabbard? My shield is strapped to my body? Why is that greatsword just glued to my back? Why does it go thru the floor when my character kneels? little details!

2. Greatwords and other two handed weapons. Okay in real life, yes these weapons were big but nobody was swinging a 200lbs. hammer, kthx. And the hilts of swords are NOT as thick around as baseball bats. Also, imagine my disgust to learn that 2 handers are basically shit compared to shield and dual weapons, so I guess my main character is kinda useless.

3. Same thing with armor...everyone is wearing incredibly huge armor that looks like it weights 500 lbs. And to top it off, despite their huge power-armor, nobody wears a freakin HELMET.

4. Morrigan's boobs. Okay I like boobs as much as any guy, but cmon....aren't game designers past the "hot chick in chain mail bikini = more sales"? Very lame.

5. I realize it would mean a lot more dialogue work, but couldn't they have hired a male and female actor to play the player character, and voice your convo options? Sure, that means only two voice options, but I prefer that to Mr. Silent. I mean I loved hearing Shepard SPEAK my responses in Mass Effect. Maybe in Dragon Age 2? It just makes the convos seem more real and flowing, ya know?

Whew. okay.

Now my question. I read I will get a chance to have Wynne in my party. She would be the healer obviously, my question is, do I NEED a healer, or not? I'm playing normal difficulty on the latest version of the PC game.

So far I plan on using Morrigan, PC is a 2 Hander, Alistair as tank, and Lelliana as dual wielding rogue? Is that gonna work or should I put in Wynne for Lelliana when I get her?

[grozeng]

Grozeng

1. I do not know, it should not have done that ?

Do you get points every level? It does not look like I got anything but HPs at level 4 when it leveled me up. I was in the middle of a fight at the time.