MMA 2010 I - Pride FC re-watch and other combat sports topics.

[Horus Ex Machina]

It's not booming in first world nations.

It's huge in Europe. Boxing is still alot bigger than MMA in the UK for example. Shit, there are Europeans on this board. Just ask some of them. Or better yet, watch Sky Sports. Of all of the combat sports that they talk about, it all boxing. Never MMA.

Just because Dana White thinks that Michael Bisping is as big as Ricky Hattan in the US does not mean that this is the case. Why do you think that he rarely fights here. Hattan, Froch, Haye, Calzaghe, those guys can fight in the US and thousands of Brits will travel here for the fight. Bisping can't move his ppl like they can still. MMA doesn't have the following in Germany, France, the UK, Ireland, Russia, or any of the 1st world nations of the EU that boxing does. There's a reason why boxing as an industry is making more money today than they ever have. Coupled with inflation it has exported it's business to Europe, Southeast Asia, and certain parts of the US primarily among ethnic populations.

The UFC is still trying to break into the European market, boxing still owns the European market. The biggest stars in boxing like Carl Froch (UK), Arthur Abraham (Ger), the Klitschko brothers, Mikel Kessler, David Haye only fight in Europe and cover huge gates and tv ratings. The difference is that their fights are broadcasts on network primetime there bc the ppv model is pretty non-existent there. So when you talk about ppv numbers you're really only talking about the US.

But most of what you would call "1st world" nations outside the US still gravitate towards boxing rather than MMA. MMA has only truly "gotten over" in the US and Japan as far as combat sports goes.

[Stego]

It's huge in Europe. Boxing is still alot bigger than MMA in the UK for example.

Bigger than MMA is not the same as successful. MMA is a niche market, not a standard to judge sport by. Boxing is a lot less lucrative, for instance, than it used to be in Europe. It is a dying sport in first world nations.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Bigger than MMA is not the same as successful. MMA is a niche market, not a standard to judge sport by. Boxing is a lot less lucrative, for instance, than it used to be in Europe. It is a dying sport in first world nations.

Boxing is making more money and has more exposure in Europe than it it did ten years ago. The only place that it's dying is in the US,... period.

Anyway, MMA Live is moving from online to ESPN2 I think before and after UFC ppvs and on a weekly basis. So the level of media coverage in the sport is about to rise, at least so far as television. Hopefully MMA fans will tune in and give them a good number.

[Oorag]

Every one of the Cesar Gracie camp are pieces of garbage as human beings. He's an embarrassment to the Gracie name.

Hehe, the Gracies are some of the most pugnacious guys to ever walk the earth, and their camps have always shown that influence. Watching the old Pride shows (which I really should get back to), it's really surprising to see the attitude difference between the old school BJJ guys and the other MMA fighters.

[GSP]

Yeah, I think the upset and talk of 'setting the sport back' regarding that brawl are highly over stated. I like the Diaz brothers. I'll just throw that out there because I'm probably alone in that, lol.

Saw an interview where GSP was hyping up Shields as one of the best out there after his performance. I'm smelling ufc/Shields negotiations going on. GSPs probably just getting the hype going early if he can. I don't see Shields as being a good match up to dethrone GSP.

[Ken Stone]

Yeah, I think the upset and talk of 'setting the sport back' regarding that brawl are highly over stated. I like the Diaz brothers. I'll just throw that out there because I'm probably alone in that, lol.

Saw an interview where GSP was hyping up Shields as one of the best out there after his performance. I'm smelling ufc/Shields negotiations going on. GSPs probably just getting the hype going early if he can. I don't see Shields as being a good match up to dethrone GSP.

I like the Diaz boys too. They are a throw back to the days of "It wasn't for MMA I would be dead or in jail".

[GSP]

Exactly. I mean, who can't love a cornerman who gives you classic advice like "Don't be a bitch"?

[Horus Ex Machina]

I don't agree with some of the statements like "they should never fight again, or be arested and such". That said, the Diaz' should probably be suspended for a year and not be allowed to corner another fighter for an indefinite period. The Cesar Gracie team should have limits placed on their cornermen and the number of ppl from their camp allowed in the cage and who is allowed should be subject to review by the athletic commission. I say this as a fan of the Diaz' and the Cesar Gracie team in general. They're good fighters and there's alot of positive that they can do for the sport. But at the moment they're behavior warrants action to be taken against them. We'll see.

Now what Ken mentions isn't really indicative of the times but rather a philosophy of Bob Shamrock, the man who discovered and nurtured guys like Diaz and the Shamrock brothers. He did find guys who were from troubled backgrounds and taught them fighting. The Shamrock brothers were from similar backgrounds before Shamrock adopted them. But there are other guys with similar stories in MMA today. Look at Roger Huerta for one. It's not always about where you come from but what you do with the opportunities given to you. Nick Diaz has a huge opportunity with Strikeforce right now and I only hope that he has the sense to realize that this type of thing isn't helping him.

[Stego]

They should not be arrested for assault?

There are laws against such for a reason.

[Horus Ex Machina]

They should not be arrested for assault?

There are laws against such for a reason.

You have to take into account the area of occurrence. Much like if you get into a fight at say, a night club, you don't automatically go to jail. Usually the bouncers will simply kick you out and send you home. It's up to the club employees or the person you assaulted to press charges. Sports are the same situation. So unless the promotion, or the league (this happens in MLB, NBA, NHL, even international football) or the other fighter or athlete wants to make a case out of it and press charges, then they should handle it in the same way. It's just a fight. I wish more ppl in society would settle disputes with their fists instead of steel.

Now I'm not excusing Diaz' actions, but there are ways to punish them without going in that direction. I said the same thing about Antonio Margarito when it was found that he was loading his gloves in boxing, essentially placing a weapon in his gloves. He should be suspended and maybe even kicked out of the sport, but not arrested. I would even listen to an argument about kicking Diaz out of MMA, as much as I am a fan of his, but I would hope that it does not have to come to that. The Tennessee State Athletic Commission is investigating, so I would expect a fitting punishment to be handed down, not only to the Diaz brothers, but perhaps even Miller as well. I'm not sure that Melendez' or Shields' pushes warrant anything more than a fine of their purses, but we'll see. For now I want the commission to handle this matter, not the police.

[Ken Stone]

You have to take into account the area of occurrence. Much like if you get into a fight at say, a night club, you don't automatically go to jail. Usually the bouncers will simply kick you out and send you home. It's up to the club employees or the person you assaulted to press charges. Sports are the same situation. So unless the promotion, or the league (this happens in MLB, NBA, NHL, even international football) or the other fighter or athlete wants to make a case out of it and press charges, then they should handle it in the same way. It's just a fight. I wish more ppl in society would settle disputes with their fists instead of steel.

Now I'm not excusing Diaz' actions, but there are ways to punish them without going in that direction. I said the same thing about Antonio Margarito when it was found that he was loading his gloves in boxing, essentially placing a weapon in his gloves. He should be suspended and maybe even kicked out of the sport, but not arrested. I would even listen to an argument about kicking Diaz out of MMA, as much as I am a fan of his, but I would hope that it does not have to come to that. The Tennessee State Athletic Commission is investigating, so I would expect a fitting punishment to be handed down, not only to the Diaz brothers, but perhaps even Miller as well. I'm not sure that Melendez' or Shields' pushes warrant anything more than a fine of their purses, but we'll see. For now I want the commission to handle this matter, not the police.

Kicking Diaz out of MMA? That seems a little extreme. Why should MMA be the only sport where being involved in a brawl means your career is ended? Put him on suspension, or fine him, sure. Not allow people who were involved in the brawl to corner anymore, makes sense.

PUT A SECURITY GUARD ON THE CAGE DOOR SO UNAUTHORIZED PEOPLE AREN'T ALLOWED IN? nah, that's stupid. Just end the guys career and be done with it.

[Ken Stone]

Anyone watch TUF 11? In that first fight before the knee strike DQ it sure looked like that slam was a head spike. Did anyone else see that? I didn't think you could slam someone head first to the mat. You can't strike someone in the back of the head, but you can pick them up and slam them to the mat on the back of their head?

[Horus Ex Machina]

Kicking Diaz out of MMA? That seems a little extreme. Why should MMA be the only sport where being involved in a brawl means your career is ended? Put him on suspension, or fine him, sure. Not allow people who were involved in the brawl to corner anymore, makes sense.

PUT A SECURITY GUARD ON THE CAGE DOOR SO UNAUTHORIZED PEOPLE AREN'T ALLOWED IN? nah, that's stupid. Just end the guys career and be done with it.

For the most part I agree with you completely. I'm only saying that I'm willing to listen to the argument considering that this has happened before with them. But no, personally I don't think that they should be kicked out of the sport. I agree that they should be barred from cornering thier teammates and a year suspension to add to it.

[Ken Stone]

For the most part I agree with you completely. I'm only saying that I'm willing to listen to the argument considering that this has happened before with them. But no, personally I don't think that they should be kicked out of the sport. I agree that they should be barred from cornering thier teammates and a year suspension to add to it.

A year seems to extreme. In NBA you get a few games suspension for fighting, which is only a couple weeks max. I'm not sure what happens in the NFL with fighting but I do know you can rape some chick and only get suspended for 6 games. It seems like what is missing from this whole discussion is a sense of context and perspective.

[GSP]

Yeah, I saw that head spike on TUF as well, and wondered about that. Those knees were clearly illegal though.

That Jager guys is annoying as hell out of the cage but has a notably impressive stand up game

[Horus Ex Machina]

A year seems to extreme. In NBA you get a few games suspension for fighting, which is only a couple weeks max. I'm not sure what happens in the NFL with fighting but I do know you can rape some chick and only get suspended for 6 games. It seems like what is missing from this whole discussion is a sense of context and perspective.

You have to take into context that, as much as MMA fans separate from boxing fans, this is prizefighting. At the upper eschelons of the sport a guy might fight 3 maybe 4 times a year. The standards of punishment usually range from 6 months to 1 year. And whatever suspension handed down by one commission is usually upheld by the rest. Now 6 months, maybe Diaz wasn't even going to fight for 6 months. It's a vacation. I agree that there are correlations between this situation and situation in other sports, hell I brought it up too. But because prizefighting has no season, they don't compete once a week or two time a week, there cannot be a direct standard by which we judge it. And remember that Sprewell was suspended for almost half a season after he punched a fan.

Anyway, Bellator 2nite bitches! I'm pretty much out of the fantasy for now since I haven't been watching a whole lot of MMA lately, but I really miss being able to call these fights bc this show is everything I hoped it would be.

[Ken Stone]

You have to take into context that, as much as MMA fans separate from boxing fans, this is prizefighting. At the upper eschelons of the sport a guy might fight 3 maybe 4 times a year. The standards of punishment usually range from 6 months to 1 year. And whatever suspension handed down by one commission is usually upheld by the rest. Now 6 months, maybe Diaz wasn't even going to fight for 6 months. It's a vacation. I agree that there are correlations between this situation and situation in other sports, hell I brought it up too. But because prizefighting has no season, they don't compete once a week or two time a week, there cannot be a direct standard by which we judge it. And remember that Sprewell was suspended for almost half a season after he punched a fan.

Punching a fan should result in huge suspension. No question there.

I agree with in regards to the way the suspensions affect prizefighters differently, but I see it a different way. In the NBA you get suspended 4 games out of 82+ you will play that year, that doesn't account for much of your salary. Suspending a prize fighter for a year would be the same as suspending an NBA player for a 82 games. It would have the same effect, no salary for a whole year. You know what you have to do to get suspended for 82 games in the NBA? I'm not sure, but one brawl isn't it. For a prizefighter who fights 4 times a year, being suspended for 3 months is the equivalent to an NBA player suspended for 20 games. You have to do a lot to be suspended for 20 games.

I'm not as familiar with the details of the NFL, but I'm guessing it is similar.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Punching a fan should result in huge suspension. No question there.

I agree with in regards to the way the suspensions affect prizefighters differently, but I see it a different way. In the NBA you get suspended 4 games out of 82+ you will play that year, that doesn't account for much of your salary. Suspending a prize fighter for a year would be the same as suspending an NBA player for a 82 games. It would have the same effect, no salary for a whole year. You know what you have to do to get suspended for 82 games in the NBA? I'm not sure, but one brawl isn't it. For a prizefighter who fights 4 times a year, being suspended for 3 months is the equivalent to an NBA player suspended for 20 games. You have to do a lot to be suspended for 20 games.

I'm not as familiar with the details of the NFL, but I'm guessing it is similar.

I see your point. Granted there are other ways for a fighter to stay afloat and their camp brings in money in other ways since alot of them are trainers there. Fighting isn't a fighter's only job, but you make a strong point. The question is, how do you direct the punishment so as to be effective. Since a fighters schedule isn't written in stone, it's a bit hard to say "Okay 3 month suspension", that's pretty much a training camp. Let's say they suspend them for 3 months, are they also going to suspend him from sparring and training with his Cesar Gracie team too? Because we could see a 3 month training camp during the "suspension" then a fight the day after they apply to get thier liscenses back. I don't know, perhaps a year is a bit much, but you cannot push anything less than 6 months and still be able to call it a punishment imo.

I do respect Jake Shields for sticking up for his teammates at 1:24:00. Regardless of whatever someone did, that type of solidarity is respectful.

[Ken Stone]

I see your point. Granted there are other ways for a fighter to stay afloat and their camp brings in money in other ways since alot of them are trainers there. Fighting isn't a fighter's only job, but you make a strong point. The question is, how do you direct the punishment so as to be effective. Since a fighters schedule isn't written in stone, it's a bit hard to say "Okay 3 month suspension", that's pretty much a training camp. Let's say they suspend them for 3 months, are they also going to suspend him from sparring and training with his Cesar Gracie team too? Because we could see a 3 month training camp during the "suspension" then a fight the day after they apply to get thier liscenses back. I don't know, perhaps a year is a bit much, but you cannot push anything less than 6 months and still be able to call it a punishment imo.

I suspect that when other athletes are suspended they are still allowed to train. Also they still get money from sponsorships and other things that they do while suspended.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I suspect that when other athletes are suspended they are still allowed to train. Also they still get money from sponsorships and other things that they do while suspended.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that a 3 month suspension isn't really a punishment at all in prizefighting. So I can't really go there with you. It may all be a moot point since indications are that the TSAC won't take any action against any fighters at all.