The Wheel of Time

[the silent speaker]

About The List:

Aside from the fact that he's coming from a place with an unusually high Chivalry Quotient, which may or may not be realistic in a world where women have all the power but at least is consistent with an area where all the men are expected to be *fighters* -- i.e. Borderlands and a doubly-fictional Manetheren where everybody is super-heroic -- and would therefore be physically stronger than non-channeling women if nothing else, Rand holds onto his list as hard as he does because he can't hurt nobody. So he carves out at least one protected group of people, and whether they deserve special treatment or not is beside the point; there are even some people on the List who he thinks really don't deserve to be there, but there they indelibly sit nonetheless. This is the last vestige of his humanity, that he has one line he doesn't cross and it burns him when it is crossed for him. He's worried, in essence, that if he lets his list go he'll become what he actually became when he let his list go (in the second half of TGS): unfeeling enough to consider whether nuking the planet might not actually be such a bad idea. I've been rereading LOC and was surprised to see that he actually said this explicitly as early as that.

[fionwe1987]

While I wouldn't say "don't read the books, the spanking is overdone!" by any means (my issues have a lot more to do with the glacial pacing in the later books and the terrible portrayal of women), there is a ridiculous amount of spanking in the later ones. Knife of Dreams was basically a giant spank-fest. And it stands out because:

I'd take issue with your dismissal of the portrayal of women, but that's a different debate.

KoD is a spank fest? Please. There are, what, two or three instances of it?

1) spanking between adults doesn't really happen in real life; in the books it happens all the time.

In real life as lived today? Certainly. That scarcely means it was a very rare phenomenon in the past. Also, while spanking is certainly considered scientifically wrong in most parts of the world, it still occurs quite often (when more horrific things are not happening).

But whatever your views on that, it certainly doesn't occur all the time in the books. It doesn't even occur most of the time.

It may make sense in some scenarios, like punishing novices in the Tower, but it goes way over the top, becoming the default punishment for any offense among any group of people. Mat gets pissed at an Aes Sedai? Spanks her. Someone wants to break a captive's spirit? Spanks her. Sevanna gets pissed at her servants? Spanks them. I have to take issue with the argument that it always has a purpose; in one of the later books we see that Sevanna has the 5 servants who pleased her least each day spanked. Seriously.

Well, they also use torture (Siuan is tortured, the Black Sister Nynaeve captures is tortured, the Seanchan Sevanna captures is tortured, Perrin tortures and chops off the hands of Aiel he captures, Rand is beaten, Egwene is beaten, the damane are tortured, Semirhage tortures). Somehow, I'm getting that you think these far more prevalent instances of torture are okay. Why? Is spanking the ultimate evil? Or is it that you're uncomfortable with it and so don't want to see it? The last is understandable, but hardly an objective critique of the books!

Further, you don't seem to get that spanking is used less as a physical tool here and more as a humiliating measure, because that's how unruly children are treated (and are/were in our world as well, depending on which part of it you live in).

Spanking the Novices reinforces to them that they are only children when it comes to using the OP, and need to obey the Aes Sedai as they would their parents. Spanking Joline in front of other sisters is Mat's way of humiliating her, showing her that she is behaving like a child/Novice, which she most certainly was.

And spanking Semirhage? Cadsaune makes it clear why it is a common spanking and not some complex weave of the Power that causes pain. The point was not to give Semirhage pain, which would have zero use. The point was the humiliate her, to let her know she wasn't being seen as anything more than an unruly kid, and letting that be seen by as many people as possible so that they'd lose their awe of her. Anything more severe was to admit that Semirhage was a tough nut to crack, which was a sign of respect, which is what fueled her will.

As for Sevanna... she's doing it pointlessly, to show she can exert her authority. It is shown in an extremely negative light, so I have no clue why you'd have a problem with it.

2) The victims are almost always female. Quite often the perpetrators are female too. I can't say whether Jordan got off on that or not, never having met the man, but there's certainly room to see it as fetish fuel.

Well, most fantasies also have women as the victims of rape. Are those authors to be accused of a rape fetish now?:unsure:

[Commodore]

I'd take issue with your dismissal of the portrayal of women, but that's a different debate.And spanking Semirhage? Cadsaune makes it clear why it is a common spanking and not some complex weave of the Power that causes pain. The point was not to give Semirhage pain, which would have zero use. The point was the humiliate her, to let her know she wasn't being seen as anything more than an unruly kid, and letting that be seen by as many people as possible so that they'd lose their awe of her. Anything more severe was to admit that Semirhage was a tough nut to crack, which was a sign of respect, which is what fueled her will.

I've enjoyed the series, but the idea that Semirhage would allow herself to be manipulated into capitulation by a spanking is not believable.

[fionwe1987]

I've enjoyed the series, but the idea that Semirhage would allow herself to be manipulated into capitulation by a spanking is not believable.

Really? Bullies don't thrive on the fear they induce? They don't crumble when faced with humiliation? You must live in Mars! How is it there?

[Migey]

Watch the spoilers for later in the series please, remember, i (the thread starter) only just finished book 4.

Having said that, i was pretty dissapointed in Siauns ousting. It was done very well, by all means, but it was too sudden, in my opnion, there should have been a bigger build up. Mabye we could have had 3/4/5 siaun chapers in the book beforehand, to build up to it.

[Lasty]

Personally, I saw Suian getting deposed as soon as Min got the viewing of Suian stretched out naked, but I think that may be because I only started reading WoT a few years ago and read up to Kinfe of Dreams in very quick succession, so Egwene's Accepted test was fresh in my mind. I would have thought that any moments that could be comparable to the Red Wedding would be

the ending of Fires of Heaven or (possibly) the Ingtar reveal in The Great Hunt.

Also, WoT isn't perfect, but I really think that some of the popular criticisms can occasionally be woefully hyperbolic.

[fionwe1987]

Watch the spoilers for later in the series please, remember, i (the thread starter) only just finished book 4.

Having said that, i was pretty dissapointed in Siauns ousting. It was done very well, by all means, but it was too sudden, in my opnion, there should have been a bigger build up. Mabye we could have had 3/4/5 siaun chapers in the book beforehand, to build up to it.

What would those extra chapters have achieved though? We already knew what we needed to know. I think it would have significantly diluted the impact of the Coup if we had seen a lot more of Siuan.

But, as you know, we haven't seen the end of her. She has escaped. Now see what she does.

[Shryke]

It's also supposed to be a surprise. You get the start of the setup in TDR and the prologue of TSR, just enough to make it not come completely out of nowhere. But the thing is supposed to be shocking and suddenly because it's supposed to be from the POV of Siuan and Min, who never see it coming.

Also, as a sidenote for those who've read TGS:

I know some people thought Elaida's actions in TGS were out of character, but reading her actions and thoughts (especialy pre-Amyrlin) it's very much in character.

Our views into her thoughts paint her as a very nasty women who's more then willing to hurt people who slight her or get in her way.

[Migey]

I think the chapters would have given us more of a connection to Siaun. The Red Wedding was such a big event to us because we had a sense of connection witht he characters. We knew, and sympathised with, Robb and Catelyn, and were rooting for them, and we knew them. Thats why the Red Wedding was such a momentous event. Siauns outsting just didnt mean as much to us as it could have, if he wad had more of a personal connection with her.

[fionwe1987]

I think the chapters would have given us more of a connection to Siaun. The Red Wedding was such a big event to us because we had a sense of connection witht he characters. We knew, and sympathised with, Robb and Catelyn, and were rooting for them, and we knew them. Thats why the Red Wedding was such a momentous event. Siauns outsting just didnt mean as much to us as it could have, if he wad had more of a personal connection with her.

I don't think RJ wanted that connection. While a part of us is supposed to feel bad, because Elaida is certainly not someone we're supposed to cheer for, Siuan herself is not without blame either.

Keeping her a dark horse till her fall, and then increasing the number of her PoVs worked very well for me. I'd say why, but that would be tons of spoilers.

[Liadin]

Well, they also use torture (Siuan is tortured, the Black Sister Nynaeve captures is tortured, the Seanchan Sevanna captures is tortured, Perrin tortures and chops off the hands of Aiel he captures, Rand is beaten, Egwene is beaten, the damane are tortured, Semirhage tortures). Somehow, I'm getting that you think these far more prevalent instances of torture are okay. Why? Is spanking the ultimate evil? Or is it that you're uncomfortable with it and so don't want to see it? The last is understandable, but hardly an objective critique of the books!

Further, you don't seem to get that spanking is used less as a physical tool here and more as a humiliating measure, because that's how unruly children are treated (and are/were in our world as well, depending on which part of it you live in).

. . . .

Well, most fantasies also have women as the victims of rape. Are those authors to be accused of a rape fetish now?:unsure:

I'm certainly not claiming that torture is okay. It is, however, a more realistic technique to use on your captives than spanking.

Of course it's meant to be humiliating, and you could come up with a reason for why it's used in every instance that it's used. That doesn't mean the sheer amount of it isn't eyeroll-inducing. It would be humiliating to spank adults in our world too, yet how often do you see that, in real life or in real-life history or in literature? The weird thing about WoT is the omnipresence of spanking (of course I'm not claiming every scene in the book revolves around spanking, but coming up every other chapter or so is still a lot). It's just weird. If, say, the book contained people cutting off each other's fingers for all sorts of different reasons--some to keep them from using bows and arrows, some to humiliate them, sometimes as torture, sometimes to illustrate the evilness of the person doing it--to the point where finger-cutting became a leitmotif of the series, people would be raising their eyebrows at that too. Same thing if we had women constantly being chained up naked, or whatever.

Rape is different because it happens a lot in real life. What's the statistic, 1 in 3, 1 in 4 have either been raped or nearly been raped? But, yes, if every other chapter in WoT included an on-screen rape, I think people would be questioning whether or not Jordan had a fetish for it.

[Shryke]

Spanking is (or rather, was) pretty ubiquitous in Western Society as a punishment that hurt alot but didn't do any real damage.

What other punishment would you suggest?

[fionwe1987]

I'm certainly not claiming that torture is okay. It is, however, a more realistic technique to use on your captives than spanking.

And that is how it is in the books too. Spanking of captives has never occurred except with Egwene, and that's because the White Tower doesn't allow the torture of its initiates.

Of course it's meant to be humiliating, and you could come up with a reason for why it's used in every instance that it's used. That doesn't mean the sheer amount of it isn't eyeroll-inducing. It would be humiliating to spank adults in our world too, yet how often do you see that, in real life or in real-life history or in literature?

How much real life history and literature is set in Abbeys or something similar to them?

The weird thing about WoT is the omnipresence of spanking (of course I'm not claiming every scene in the book revolves around spanking, but coming up every other chapter or so is still a lot). It's just weird. If, say, the book contained people cutting off each other's fingers for all sorts of different reasons--some to keep them from using bows and arrows, some to humiliate them, sometimes as torture, sometimes to illustrate the evilness of the person doing it--to the point where finger-cutting became a leitmotif of the series, people would be raising their eyebrows at that too. Same thing if we had women constantly being chained up naked, or whatever.

See, this is what I (and Shryke) have a problem with. The instances of spanking can be counted in two hands, most likely, and given the huge size of the cast and the length of the series, it is an insignificant amount. Other stuff like torture occurs much more often, but you've chosen to focus on the spanking and are exaggerating the extent of its occurrence.

It comes up every other chapter or so? Then I can only assume you skip the parts in between and are only reading those few chapters where spanking occurs. Because spanking is not, as you claim, the leitmotif of the series. That's just hyperbole from you.

Rape is different because it happens a lot in real life. What's the statistic, 1 in 3, 1 in 4 have either been raped or nearly been raped? But, yes, if every other chapter in WoT included an on-screen rape, I think people would be questioning whether or not Jordan had a fetish for it.

Bah! Spanking occurs much more often in real life than it does in the books, and was certainly far more common in a period of our world comparable to WoT's. You may not like it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[Liadin]

And that is how it is in the books too. Spanking of captives has never occurred except with Egwene, and that's because the White Tower doesn't allow the torture of its initiates.

Sure it happened other times. Remember Cadsuane in book 12?

How much real life history and literature is set in Abbeys or something similar to them?

Very little of WoT is set in abbeys (er, none really). Mat certainly isn't in an abbey when he spanks Joline. You might call every single society in the books "abbey-like", but that's a bit of a cop-out. There's nothing abbey-like about the Aiel, among whom spanking is common, and the White Tower doesn't strike me as particularly monastic either. A more apt comparison would be professional societies i medieval Europe, and we have no reason to believe they spanked their members often.

See, this is what I (and Shryke) have a problem with. The instances of spanking can be counted in two hands, most likely, and given the huge size of the cast and the length of the series, it is an insignificant amount. Other stuff like torture occurs much more often, but you've chosen to focus on the spanking and are exaggerating the extent of its occurrence.

It stands out because of its frequency in the books as compared to its frequency in real life. Torture is not unusual in war, particularly in medieval times. Spanking among adults is unusual. It happens a lot in the books, and I'm far from the only one to have noticed. Check out the Amazon reviews for CoT or KoD. You seem to be in the minority for claiming it's uncommon. I'd guess you're a big fan of the books but rather creeped out by spanking, which is why you're trying to downplay it.

Bah! Spanking occurs much more often in real life than it does in the books, and was certainly far more common in a period of our world comparable to WoT's. You may not like it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Spanking of kids is common IRL. I could count the number of children in WoT on my fingers. And I'm not quite sure what time period you're referring to--care to cite the source that has led you to believe that spanking among adults was common during that particular time?

What other punishment would you suggest?

"Whipping" or "beating" would be about the same, but without the kinky overtones.

[fionwe1987]

Sure it happened other times. Remember Cadsuane in book 12?

Yes, clearly, an Aes Sedai out to humiliate someone by treating them as a child should think of something revolutionary instead of what she has lived through in the Tower!

Very little of WoT is set in abbeys (er, none really). Mat certainly isn't in an abbey when he spanks Joline. You might call every single society in the books "abbey-like", but that's a bit of a cop-out. There's nothing abbey-like about the Aiel, among whom spanking is common, and the White Tower doesn't strike me as particularly monastic either. A more apt comparison would be professional societies i medieval Europe, and we have no reason to believe they spanked their members often.

The Aiel? Spanking? Where? Sevanna? That is not common nor accepted.

As for the Tower, it is indeed like Abbeys. Jordan even said so once, I think.

It stands out because of its frequency in the books as compared to its frequency in real life. Torture is not unusual in war, particularly in medieval times. Spanking among adults is unusual. It happens a lot in the books, and I'm far from the only one to have noticed. Check out the Amazon reviews for CoT or KoD. You seem to be in the minority for claiming it's uncommon. I'd guess you're a big fan of the books but rather creeped out by spanking, which is why you're trying to downplay it.

It is not frequent. That is total bull shit. It occurs not at all in the first five to six books, and thereafter, there are a few instances of it, and none of them are pointless or graphic.

And spanking among adults is unusual? In what world?

And for gods sake, if the sum of your argument is "go read the Amazon Reviews", stop right now. "Jordan suxxxxx!" is not a negative review, it is merely juvenile.

Spanking of kids is common IRL. I could count the number of children in WoT on my fingers.

All the Novices and Accepted are. Given the Aes Sedai's lifespans, that makes complete and total sense. But you will ignore all that, of course.

And I'm not quite sure what time period you're referring to--care to cite the source that has led you to believe that spanking among adults was common during that particular time?

But spanking among adults is not common in WoT. Just more common than in current day Western civilization, and even then, the bulk of the "adults" being spanked are Novices. Its a little creepy that you'd read a few instances of spanking and assume that every WoT adult is involved in doing it.

"Whipping" or "beating" would be about the same, but without the kinky overtones.

So, more dangerous and injurious is okay, it just shouldn't have any (modern, incidentally) undertones that you're uncomfortable with?

The kinky undertones in spanking are a modern spin on an age old method of punishment. That you cannot separate this from the books, and insist on enforcing your modern sensibilities on the characters of the series only proves my point that you're overplaying this.

[Shryke]

"Whipping" or "beating" would be about the same, but without the kinky overtones.

Except both are far more damaging physically and lack the humiliating "treating you like a child" factor.

Both of those things are the reason they are using spanking in the first place. It hurts, it's humiliating but it doesn't leave you with broken bones, extensive wounds or internal bleeding.

[fionwe1987]

Except both are far more damaging physically and lack the humiliating "treating you like a child" factor.

Both of those things are the reason they are using spanking in the first place. It hurts, it's humiliating but it doesn't leave you with broken bones, extensive wounds or internal bleeding.

I'm also rather stupefied by the argument that kink is worse than serious physical harm.:stunned:

[Poobah]

I think the problem people have is that it seems like RJ writes these spanking scenes with deliberately fetishistic overtones, sexualising them when, as you have said yourself in the context there is no kinky undertone.

[fionwe1987]

I think the problem people have is that it seems like RJ writes these spanking scenes with deliberately fetishistic overtones, sexualising them when, as you have said yourself in the context there is no kinky undertone.

But how does he sexualize them?

Take, for example, Silviana repeatedly spanking Egwene. What the hell is sexual or fetishistic about it? Silviana does it as her duty, Egwene takes it stoically. There is not a hint of a sexual flavor.

Are you sure this isn't something you're tacking on to these scenes?

[Liadin]

I'm also rather stupefied by the argument that kink is worse than serious physical harm.:stunned:

I'm not sure who's arguing that it's worse; if you think I am, you're putting words in my mouth. If we're judging the perpetrators morally, obviously it's less wrong to spank than to torture. That's not the point. The point is how overdone it is, compared to how often such scenes are likely to occur in real life, and, as Poobah mentioned, the sexualizing. Fionwe, I'd ask you the reverse question: how can adult-on-adult spanking not be kinky on some level, when BDSM is the only context in which it happens in our world? Of course, the point isn't that Silviana or Egwene finds the spanking arousing, since they don't; the point is the potential for the writer, and certain readers, to be aroused.

At any rate, I haven't cited the spanking as a reason not to read the books, nor have I called it morally disgusting or anything else. I've simply called it weird, because it is weird, and I can see why some people don't like it. RJ's clearly fascinated with it. That bothers some people a lot and others not at all.