The Wheel of Time

[wolverine]

Just to add my opinion, I have been a long time reader of the series and never noticed the abbundant spanking that many others see. When the many examples are pointed out it does seem outdone, but it has never bothered me as a reader. Jordan really shies away from his "good" characters doing anything cruel, bad, evil, etc and spanking is a punishment that good people will still often use. There are not the gray characters in WoT that we love from Martin and Abercrombie and readers may like some characters less if they are seen torturing or doling out other cruel punishments.

Has anyone else ever read any other Jordan works? I read the Fallon Blood, written as Reagan O'Neil by Robert Jordan and it is very sexualized compared to WoT. The women may be dumber than in WoT and are definitely skankier.

[Arthmail]

But is he basing his world off the notion of colonial era sensibilities? Considering that there is a group of people that always seems under-dressed, i can't remember their name, it seems odd. Sure, they are all sort of scandalized by very revealing clothes, but taking off a jacket is not scandelous. Coupled with the fact that people are naked all over the place, there are bath houses for men and women, and the notion that taking your jacket off is against sensibilities seems out of place. It didn't bother me, it just seems stupid.

I think, ultimately, my problem with Jordan is that there is a great deal that seems to be filler. He repeats himself over and over. Smoothing skirts, braid tugging, wearing jackets in the heat, even the spanking...i think what many notice is that these things happen again and again. By themselves they are not common, but together...well, its easy to start seeing them over and over because they start to get annoying when taken as a group. Every time one of the girls goes into the dream world, their dresses necklines are plunging and going prudish left and right. Chalk it up to their inexperience, sure, but as its repeated more and more it gets more irritating.

Surprisingly, i am enjoying this read through more than the first time i did it, focusing more on the prose and the world building than the points that irritate me. I still find myself trying to skip most any of the female characters POVs, but i'm forcing myself to abandon that desire and to read what is before me.

One thing that i've found disappointing is that the Forsaken start to seem like useless children as the series goes on, and not the epitomy of ancient evil - corrupted warriors of the light - that they first started off being. Perhaps what seems to work - they're slow reveal as POV characters - also backfires. There are some neat things going on in their chapters, but at the same time, the mystery is slowly eroded until little remains. I think thats why Jordan introduced that Super Mydraal.

[Humble Asskicker]

This isn't part of any argument, but I've been going through WoT again, because of this thread. It isn't a full reread, but a quick skim through Rand and Mat's POV, and Perrin's up to book 8. I haven't done an actual full reread of the series for many, many years. While I was waiting for book 8, actually, way back when I hadn't even hit puberty. I haven't ever fully read books 8 or 10, in fact. But I plan on it when book 14 comes out.

Anyway, I was skimming and all criticisms aside, RJ is a genius. It's truly staggering the amount of detail and work that has gone into this series. The breadth of the world, the people, the factions is so massive I wonder if it will ever be topped (Erikson might have, but I couldn't make myself read his books beyond number 4 - just not my taste).

The amount of foreshadowing somewhat damages the suspense, but it creates a marvelous continuity that I haven't seen in any other series. It's really fucking cool to hear someone spoken of, and then five books later they actually appear. Cadsuane is a very rare exception, when it comes to powerful characters appearing out of nowhere.

I have to say, I'm eager to reread this series when the final volume comes out. I'm not sure if I'll manage through all of book 10, but that aside, I'm really excited.

--

This part of the post is intended to add something to the arguments above.

I think a problem with RJ is that he is really subtle in his writing, and so it is often easy to mistake his writing certain attitudes as endorsing them.

It still doesn't make the attitudes themselves any less annoying, especially if you are bombarded with a huge drove of unlikable character attributes in the heroes.

If you have an anti-hero who goes around torturing people, but still has some heroic qualities, it's possible to find the material likable still, because unless that character is Richard Rahl, it's hard to believe that the author endorses that attitude, and consequences of such behavior usually follow.

However, with RJ, there usually aren't any consequences, and many real life people actually do have the sexist attitude you find in the Two Rivers folks and a lot of other nations in Randland. So it's easy to mistake this as merely a superficial endorsement of behavior, instead of a deeper, more meaningful examination of the psyche through that behavior.

Sometimes consequences do occur, but it takes several books to happen.

Such as when a certain threesome were rescued from capture in book three, and responded with a ridiculous amount of ingratitude to their liberator. This went without consequence for several books, and they never are truly repentant. That attitude alone makes the characters unlikable, but because they went so long without consequence for their actions, and were even smug about it for such a long time, you begin to wonder if the author too thinks as they.

And that's just one example. Because there are so many grating character attributes, it's easy to become distracted and have the mistaken impression that there is not some deeper objective.

I really have to give credit to fion for a lot of my change in perception though. Lots of people seem to hate on the dude, and while sometimes I think his arguments are way too far-fetched, he does make a quite a few good points, and it bothers me when people gangbang him with their angry negative points of retribution.

That said, spanking is overdone in WoT,

and the Semi breaking was absurd.

Shryke,

Two more pages, bitch. Never doubt my prognostication ability.

[Shryke]

But is he basing his world off the notion of colonial era sensibilities? Considering that there is a group of people that always seems under-dressed, i can't remember their name, it seems odd. Sure, they are all sort of scandalized by very revealing clothes, but taking off a jacket is not scandelous. Coupled with the fact that people are naked all over the place, there are bath houses for men and women, and the notion that taking your jacket off is against sensibilities seems out of place. It didn't bother me, it just seems stupid.

Uh, people are naked in 2 cultures for bathing. That's it. The Aiel and Shienar, neither of whom have hangups about taking coats off. "All over the place" is just more ridiculous hyperbole.

On the other hand, we see a variation in cultural acceptance of undress. The Tairens refuse to even undo their shirts, whereas the Cairhien and the Andorians are more then willing to do so

One thing that i've found disappointing is that the Forsaken start to seem like useless children as the series goes on, and not the epitomy of ancient evil - corrupted warriors of the light - that they first started off being. Perhaps what seems to work - they're slow reveal as POV characters - also backfires. There are some neat things going on in their chapters, but at the same time, the mystery is slowly eroded until little remains. I think thats why Jordan introduced that Super Mydraal.

The Super Mydraal is introduced for other reasons.

The Forsaken aren't suposed to be "uber baddasses" or the epitome of evil. They are simply those that survived. While most are exceptional, they aren't supposed to be in any way infallable. Shit, Asmodian is a fucking musician.

It's part of one of the large themes of the book, which is the way normal events become myth due to distance and time. The Forsaken are only the epitome of evil because over the last 3000 years they've become legends. All that's known of them is their names in fact.

The most obvious example is when Nynaeve smacks Moghedien around the first time. She spends most of the fight worried she's about to be crushed by one of the Forsaken and then suddenly she realises Moghedien isn't toying with her but actually can't beat her. She realises they are people, not some sort of legendary evil of unstoppable power.

[Humble Asskicker]

The Forsaken aren't suposed to be "uber baddasses" or the epitome of evil. They are simply those that survived. While most are exceptional, they aren't supposed to be in any way infallable. Shit, Asmodian is a fucking musician.

And it's actually spelled out in TGS. If I remember correctly, Verin talks about how the Forsaken were chosen not singularly for their brilliance or any spectacularly accomplished feat, but because they are selfish - monomaniacally, delusionally so. The DO understands them. Only Ishmael seems to be chosen for a reason other than selfishness...which is why the dude is Nae'blis.

Still, they have exhibited a sort of incompetence that regardless of their predictability seems to often hamper the DO's plans and piss him off.

That said, disappointment is understandable. Creating an aura of menace is significantly deflated when your menacing villain is a bumbling jackass, even if it's deliberate. Even characters with genuine build-up, like Semi (where even the Forsaken themselves, and Lews Therin's memories, were frightened of her, and who single-handedly annihilated most of the Seanchan ruling structure), who seem to have actually earned their legacy, turn out to be only weakling punks.

I really like how Taim is approached - there's still some mystique to that guy, and his cadre of apostles in the Black Tower have me intensely curious about how that face-off with Rand will occur. We've already seen the Forsaken effortlessly blasted away, so the anticipation of a match-up there is less exciting. I am worried that he'll be brought to submission with a few spanks from Cadsuane though. Maybe he'll be forced into pink frilly clothes until he's unable to withstand the horrible humiliation and weeps repentance for all his dark deeds.

[Shryke]

I don't think the Forsaken have displayed a monumental amount of incompetence. Most of their issues seem to stem from not taking the threats of the modern age seriously.

Bal'al (or however his name is spelled) for instance buys it because he never considered Moraine a threat.

It's also made obvious as early as LOC that the Dark One is playing another game within the obvious game that not even the Forsaken are aware of.

[Humble Asskicker]

I don't think the Forsaken have displayed a monumental amount of incompetence. Most of their issues seem to stem from not taking the threats of the modern age seriously.

That is monumentally incompetent. If you keep getting your ass kicked and still refuse to revise your opinions, then you're stupid. Plain as that.

Is it believable? Certainly (re: Crusades, and general European attitudes to Muslim culture, for one example). But as a fictional narrative, however plausible an attitude it may be, it really defeats any sense of threat. And you can alter the attitude to up the villains' competence significantly while still retaining plausibility, ie - not act like a dolt during their conniving.

As for your point about the DO, yes, and since that hand is still in play, I'm curious how that will unfold. I don't see anyone believing there's a chance in hell of it working, so no suspense there, but it is a cool concept.

[Shryke]

That is monumentally incompetent. If you keep getting your ass kicked and still refuse to revise your opinions, then you're stupid. Plain as that.

Is it believable? Certainly (re: Crusades, and general European attitudes to Muslim culture, for one example). But as a fictional narrative, however plausible an attitude it may be, it really defeats any sense of threat. And you can alter the attitude to up the villains' competence significantly while still retaining plausibility, ie - not act like a dolt during their conniving.

As for your point about the DO, yes, and since that hand is still in play, I'm curious how that will unfold. I don't see anyone believing there's a chance in hell of it working, so no suspense there, but it is a cool concept.

Those that learned that lesson tend to be too dead to actually learn the lesson.

Also, that's overconfidence, not incompetence.

[Alexia]

Those that learned that lesson tend to be too dead to actually learn the lesson.

Actually, not really, given that...

They keep coming back to life! And didn't a couple of them "die" more than once?

[Shryke]

Actually, not really, given that...

They keep coming back to life! And didn't a couple of them "die" more than once?

Only 3 of them. And 2 of those died right at the start and the 3rd is the favored pet and has completely changed his game plan since that death.

Well, maybe you can throw Lanfear in for a #4 but she's been on a VERY tight leash since her death so we don't know what she'd be up to if free.

This isn't Malazan. There's actually been almost no resurrections.

[fionwe1987]

You should calm down Fionwe before you have a heart attack. Your starting to sound a bit...frothy.

Really? Bullies don't thrive on the fear they induce? They don't crumble when faced with humiliation? You must live in Mars! How is it there?

- Last i checked, one of the Forsaken wasn't a fucking bully. The notion that, after all that she has done over the last however many thousands of years, including kneeling before the Dark One, a spanking would somehow bother her at all is retarded. She has humiliated herself in every way possible to achieve her position as one of the Forsaken, what would a spanking matter?

She has humiliated herself? How, exactly?

What is particularly irritating is that you haven't encountered the character in the books, haven't even see how she's broken, and think you can make an objective argument about it!

Also, lets see some statistics for spanking before its assumed to be par for the course for punishment. It did exist, in the form of birching, but that was a public humiliation on the bare buttocks. Most public humiliation was meant to have a little bit of serious damage, not just a bruised ego. Because obviously with all of the headstrong people in WoT a simple spanking was not enough.

But personally, while i find adult on adult spanking weird and lame as a form of punishment, i never had a problem with it. Jordan's world, so, whatever he wants. I found his women's characterization to be far more of a problem than the spanking.

I'll certainly agree that the tertiary female characters are bugging because they're so uniform. The major females, however, are quite well drawn.

I can see why people have problems with them, but fail to understand why no one considers that these women are living in a world where women dominate, and from the beginning of the story, most of them have been told that they'll be super powerful even among the most powerful women in the world. That is bound to negatively affect their attitudes, and Jordan shows how they mature and move from that.

The main characters are irritating, even exasperating. But they grow and change. I don't see why his characterization has to be questioned, in all this.

3)The descriptions. Jordan's prose is good, but i don't need descriptions of every inn and every second meal. I don't care, at all, what they fucking eat. Please get on with the plot.

I kind of agree. Though sometimes the signs of the inns and the dresses have significance to the story, it is dwelled upon a little too much. A word of warning... it is going to get worse.

I agree with whoever said that Semirhage's breaking was handled clumsily. The method was fine, but the end result was too abrupt.

And thanks 対 森羅万象論者!

On the Forsaken... they aren't the ultimate big baddies. Verin explains it perfectly in tGS. For all that, they're responsible for pretty much decimating the Westlands society. It is easy to forget while reading about the main characters, but the political landscape has changed so drastically, and its all down to the Forsaken (mostly).

[Humble Asskicker]

Those that learned that lesson tend to be too dead to actually learn the lesson.

Not when you're

revived

(although what's the point, this thread is full of un-tagged spoils beyond book 4), or escape the wrath of Rand and co. Also, watching your comrades (or fellow villains) fall one after another before primitives seems like a lesson someone who was actually adequate in campaigning would pay heed to. Sure, you would be happy, because that's one less rival for power, but you would also be wary about your ultimate opponent.

You would also think that because the "primitives" have such a knack for pulling out super-powerful tools that up their power to such an extent that skill is rendered irrelevant, that that would also encourage caution.

Also, that's overconfidence, not incompetence.

When overconfidence continually leads to failure, that is incompetence.

The Forsaken are pawns, but they are treated only as pawns, instead of threatening in their own right. This negates any tension when confronting them, because you know that in a face-off between Forsaken and heroes, the Forsaken are going to get smacked down.

But who knows, really, until the final book? There might be something else planned that we are not privy to. RJ is good at hiding his real purpose.

I do like the fact that the Last Battle seems to be more of an internal struggle than flash and power matches, but it's still annoying to have so many throwaway villains.

[Alexia]

Only 3 of them. And 2 of those died right at the start and the 3rd is the favored pet and has completely changed his game plan since that death.

Well, maybe you can throw Lanfear in for a #4 but she's been on a VERY tight leash since her death so we don't know what she'd be up to if free.

This isn't Malazan. There's actually been almost no resurrections.

I barely managed to get through Gardens of the Moon and refuse to read any more of that series so in comparison to what I normally read there's a lot of resurrections. :) I don't care for it in ASOIAF either, at least not the Beric/Catelyn resurrections.

But there's only 12 Forsaken IIRC. Four resurrections out of 12, that's 25% character resurrections.

[Shryke]

When overconfidence continually leads to failure, that is incompetence.

But that's the thing, it's not continual.

You should read my reply above. Those that died due to overconfidence are DEAD dead. (except for possibly Lanfear, who hasn't had any chance at all to show whether she has learned from her mistakes or not)

Moridin has changed his game certainly. And the other 2 who were revived are on a tight leash.

And really, that's the thing. Any Forsaken that dies and comes back is immediately put under the direct command of the Dark One and told "Do what I tell you or else!".

And the thing is, they don't learn frmo each other because they look down on one another and don't trust one another. So even if they DO know what happened, they tend to think "He died cause he was an idiot" without trying to learn much from the experience. There's several occasions where a Forsaken talks or thinks about Belal's death and chalks it up to the guy being an idiot and that it could never happen to them.

Though they do learn a little (mostly wariness) from those things. The remaining Forsaken (and Rahvin, who died for other reasons) are shown to be the least trusting and most careful. They don't over-extend and they don't put themselves in harm's way if they can help it.

[Shryke]

I barely managed to get through Gardens of the Moon and refuse to read any more of that series so in comparison to what I normally read there's a lot of resurrections. :) I don't care for it in ASOIAF either, at least not the Beric/Catelyn resurrections.

But there's only 12 Forsaken IIRC. Four resurrections out of 12, that's 25% character resurrections.

Yes, but it's only reserrections from a select group where it makes sense.

It's not like people are coming back all the time for all sorts of reasons. It's one specific group that has a known and established way out.

It's also higher then 25%, as every Forsaken that hasn't been Balefired or turned traitor comes back. That's consistency and it's a good thing.

It's exactly like Beric/Catelyn in ASOIAF.

[fionwe1987]

Not when you're

revived

(although what's the point, this thread is full of un-tagged spoils beyond book 4), or escape the wrath of Rand and co. Also, watching your comrades (or fellow villains) fall one after another before primitives seems like a lesson someone who was actually adequate in campaigning would pay heed to. Sure, you would be happy, because that's one less rival for power, but you would also be wary about your ultimate opponent.

You would also think that because the "primitives" have such a knack for pulling out super-powerful tools that up their power to such an extent that skill is rendered irrelevant, that that would also encourage caution.

While the Foresaken are shown as incompetent, they have learned their lessons.

Spoiler

Graendal never confronts Rand, and yet, she's the only one to have defeated him, since he had to leave Arad Doman in chaos. Her death, if she is indeed death, required some pretty good planning by Rand, and wasn't really her fault. Ishamael has learned. He doesn't confront Rand, and he manipulates him from behind the scenes. And it worked. Rand nearly destroyed the world in tGS! Demandred has seemingly learned the best. Not even the other Foresaken know where he is. Mesaana too, by hiding in the Shadows, has managed to avoid any risks.

All said and done, they've improved as a group.

[Jerol]

I just started reading this series after Thanksgiving. I'm two books in now and taking another break before plunging in farther. The world-building is quite impressive and I am intrigued to see where the male characters are going. I can't stand the women though and this is unusual for me. They just take all the fun out of the story and drag the momentum to a standstill. It really makes me wonder if Jordan's relationships with women in his life were really unhappy.

The pace in general is fairly slow. Jordan takes a long time getting anywhere and I hate to see what happens when it slows down any more. For a guy that could write a great action scene he sure didn't like to write many of them. And maybe writers like Martin, Lynch, Morgan, etc have corrupted me but the level of darkness here seems to be at a YA level. Even Tolkien was darker than this.

[Poobah]

She has humiliated herself? How, exactly?

Followers of the Dark One are always goning on about debasing themselves before the Dark One or his minions. humiliating onanother, taking cheap shots etc.

If you want me to believe that Semi turned up at the pit of doom and said "you better let me join your organisation or I'll torture your ass, maggot" and managed to hold onto her pride intact throughout her climb up the ranks of the forsaken then you'll have to write it in letters of fire in the sky. The whole 'breaking' of Semirhage is absolutely ridiculous. It's the worst scene in the book by miles and it stands out like a steaming pile of turd in what it otherwise a decent entry into the Wheel of Time saga.

I'm not going to back down on the whole kink thing I think Jordan had going on because well that's my reading. But on the other hand I have neither the time nor inclination to read 12 books and come back with some citations and literary criticism. So whatever. I find the impetus on you to defend the Semirhage scene, however.

[Humble Asskicker]

fion,

You didn't mention Sammael, who went out of his way to avoid a confrontation with Rand, and only attacked when Illian was invaded.

Shryke, fion

Okay, I'll concede that much. But the track record of Forsaken is way, way against them, so it still works against the suspense of confrontations. If a Forsaken enters battle, it's about as threatening as a Trolloc or Myrdraal. That's deliberate too, probably, as they are concerted for a different purpose than battling, but still...the confrontations do occur and they have no suspense at all to them.

Dagger,

The early books have the fastest clip to them. Book 4 has the tightest structure by far, and from there the pace lags and lots of filler enters as the plot expands and RJ tries to keep everyone in sync.

[Liadin]

RE: The Forsaken. I think they were more intimidating back at the beginning because they weren't on-screen. The Forsaken tea parties make them seem just.... silly. All these nefarious-sounding plans they come up with never come to anything.

Although honestly, I'm not sure anyone could keep a constant feeling of suspense or threat over 12 books without letting any main characters die (except one, maybe).