The Wheel of Time

[Werthead]

I dont think hes writing it yet... its planned for the future though (the 10 book series)

The Way of Kings - Book 1 of The Stormlight Archive - is completed and coming out this summer.

It was then looking like Sanderson would have to write Book 2 in the series from scratch for a mid-2011 release on top of the last two WoT books, and it was clear that this was not going to happen, so it appears that Sanderson has decided to refocus purely on WoT. It also appears that he felt that Towers of Midnight was going to be somewhat unfocused without as satisfying a through-line as TGS' concentration on Rand and Egwene, so some restructuring was going to be required (my guess would be to focus ToM's through-line on Mat, taking him from Caemlyn to the Tower of Ghenjei and the presumably difficult task of rescuing Moiraine, with events at the Black Tower maybe as the major subplot).

I think this is a good move. Sanderson was looking seriously overloaded there for a while and the burst of energy that took him through TGS and half of ToM seemed to be waning, so taking a breather and now deciding to focus all his energies on ToM seems like a good idea. AMoL, I'm assuming, should come easier given that Jordan wrote a large chunk of it himself.

[Arthmail]

I'm not too eager to get into a semantic war, whatever your name is, but i disagree with your assessment. But, meh.

Now, a problem that has been nattering in my ear for some time is wether or not Rand needs people to deflate his ego. For a number of books now, i've grown increasingly frustrated with the group of people that have appointed themselves to burst his bubble at any time they've wished to. My thoughts have been, this is the most important man in the world, who the hell do you think you are? Especially the Wise Ones and all of the Aes Sedai. The fact that many of them act like shrews most of the time, i always felt it was like a few Leiutenants questioning a general. Get over yourself.

But then Rand had one of those Aiel that first followed him hung for murder, one that, considering their society, i didn't really think much of. (perhaps i need to reevaluate my notions of right and wrong) I thought to myself, what a bastard, someone needs to rein this guy in. Who is he to impose his morals on another society, especially one that has become his base of power.

I flip flopped in less than a hundred pages or so.

So my question is, does Rand need to be managed? Should he still be managed, but less forcefully, or more? Perhaps the Aes Sedai should have had him on a tight leash since the beginning.

Thoughts?

[fionwe1987]

Now, a problem that has been nattering in my ear for some time is wether or not Rand needs people to deflate his ego. For a number of books now, i've grown increasingly frustrated with the group of people that have appointed themselves to burst his bubble at any time they've wished to. My thoughts have been, this is the most important man in the world, who the hell do you think you are? Especially the Wise Ones and all of the Aes Sedai. The fact that many of them act like shrews most of the time, i always felt it was like a few Leiutenants questioning a general. Get over yourself.

But then Rand had one of those Aiel that first followed him hung for murder, one that, considering their society, i didn't really think much of. (perhaps i need to reevaluate my notions of right and wrong) I thought to myself, what a bastard, someone needs to rein this guy in. Who is he to impose his morals on another society, especially one that has become his base of power.

I flip flopped in less than a hundred pages or so.

So my question is, does Rand need to be managed? Should he still be managed, but less forcefully, or more? Perhaps the Aes Sedai should have had him on a tight leash since the beginning.

Thoughts?

I think there needs to be a balance.

It is, I think, silly to expect powerful women who've had years of experience guiding the world to give up and follow Rand without question. Why would they accept that a 20 year old shepherd knows better than them?

It is equally stupid of some of them to want to control his every move. He is the prophesied savior, after all!

I think the Wise One's handle it best. They don't try overt control, and when they really want something from him, they ask for it bluntly. They also have some subtle schemes like getting him married to Aviendha which he just never caught them at.

Basically, I think that yes, Rand needs guidance (and you'll find this getting truer as you read on). But he shouldn't be browbeaten, both because that's a moronic tactic, and because he does know what's right, at times.

[Humble Asskicker]

It was then looking like Sanderson would have to write Book 2 in the series from scratch for a mid-2011 release on top of the last two WoT books, and it was clear that this was not going to happen, so it appears that Sanderson has decided to refocus purely on WoT. It also appears that he felt that Towers of Midnight was going to be somewhat unfocused without as satisfying a through-line as TGS' concentration on Rand and Egwene, so some restructuring was going to be required (my guess would be to focus ToM's through-line on Mat, taking him from Caemlyn to the Tower of Ghenjei and the presumably difficult task of rescuing Moiraine, with events at the Black Tower maybe as the major subplot).

It really does seem like he's in exactly the same situation as GRRM right now. One set of characters is well ahead of the other set, but the requirements of the story demand that the book not only play catch-up, but also continue the former set of characters' stories

(the Black Tower, wrapping up the Amerlyn Seat situation, etc).

Frankly, even if this means a few months to a year more, I don't care. As long as ToM is a worthy follower to tGS.

I feel the same way. Years mean nothing.

I hope that Sanderson spends the time working out Mat's personality. As much as I loved TGS, this was the weakest point for me. Usually I'm looking ahead to see how long until the next Mat chapter; book 12 was the only one that I checked how many pages until his chapter would actually end. Sanderson nailed most of the characters, so it's a stroke of misfortune that one of the few characters he would stumble with is my favorite character.

I'm somewhat trepidated though, because I think Sanderson actually responded to the criticism of Mat, something along the lines of:

"He's just been married and he's trying to come to terms with it." Which is a bullshit justification. So because he's married he completely changes character and starts doing Monty Python reels with Talmanes?

It was amusing stuff on it's own, but when it comes at the expense of altering a character I like, it's annoying. I hope Sanderson doesn't buy his own justification and is refining Mat to fit closer to his personality.

So my question is, does Rand need to be managed? Should he still be managed, but less forcefully, or more? Perhaps the Aes Sedai should have had him on a tight leash since the beginning.

For a while I was on the side that Rand was handling things properly. His focus was to ally everyone for the Last Battle, but he was opposed from so many angles by those who wanted to do things their way, no matter what (rebel and Tower Aes Sedai, for instance, and also the Seachan), or those who were working for their own insterests and didn't care for the big picture (lots of nobles, the Shaido), and those who were completely clueless or incompetent (again, the nobles, the wild Dragonsworn).

He had to deal with this in a limited time frame, and so it's understandable if he didn't sit down and compromise with everyone's terms. He went out of his way for some, but other times he said, screw this, I don't have time for this bullshit...and yelled threats. One always should have advice, or guidance, but people around Rand were less interested in giving advice and more interested in manipulating/bullying Rand into doing what they wanted him to do.

In TGS, the dude went flat-out crazy. At that point, he definitely needed some sanity guiding his direction, but he was too far gone by then to be capable of receiving sane advice.

But he shouldn't be browbeaten, both because that's a moronic tactic, and because he does know what's right, at times.

This, pretty much. Min hit it right on the mark. It will be interesting to see how Tam will work in this scheme, being someone, like Min, who is concerned for Rand and doesn't have some other agenda motivating him. And because Tam is awesome.

[fionwe1987]

This, pretty much. Min hit it right on the mark. It will be interesting to see how Tam will work in this scheme, being someone, like Min, who is concerned for Rand and doesn't have some other agenda motivating him. And because Tam is awesome.

I don't really think Min has it all correct, though. Sure, no browbeating, but her demand seems to be everyone needs to care for Rand the man, which is ridiculous.

People like Cadsuane don't really care all that much for him. Both because he's given them no cause for love, and also because they are as worried about saving the world as he, and don't want personal connections. That doesn't mean people like this aren't his greatest allies. That is something Rand never seemed to understand.

[Arthmail]

When did Tam get awesome?

I presume some time after book 6.

Also, whats the deal with keeping Elayne's whereabouts hidden from Rand?

[Shryke]

Shryke, fion

Okay, I'll concede that much. But the track record of Forsaken is way, way against them, so it still works against the suspense of confrontations. If a Forsaken enters battle, it's about as threatening as a Trolloc or Myrdraal. That's deliberate too, probably, as they are concerted for a different purpose than battling, but still...the confrontations do occur and they have no suspense at all to them.

I've been thinking about this while reading LOC this afternoon.

And the interesting thing is, while the Forsaken aren't doing that great in toe-to-toe confrontations with Rand, said Confrontations are few and far between.

They are, on the other hand, succeeding brilliantly at everything else they are up to. They distanced him from his allies, crushed potential alliances before they form and generally sowed mistrust, death, chaos and generally just problems in front of his every step.

I think you can only call them useless and weak if all you consider is straight up fights face to face.

[Shryke]

Also, something else that often seems forgotten:

While looking for something Rand "Needs", Elayne and Nynaeve eventually find the Bowl of the Winds.

But before that, they end up in the White Tower, in a store-room for what Elayne believes are x-angreal of unknown purpose/use/etc.

I wonder what's in there?

[Gertrude]

On the subject of 'handling' Rand

I don't understand where a lot of Egwene haters feel that she wants to control him. From what I read, she always thought of it in terms of guiding him, which I interpreted as council and advise. She even said (if I recall) that he did need to be free to do what needs to be done. Like others, I think the balance is needed. He IS the Dragon Reborn, he sees the big picture and he IS important. He doesn't have time to sit down and convince others what needs doing and why, so he plays the tyrant at times. However, he also needs to (and did) remember why he was fighting and that real people are involved, not just abstract nations and pawns.

To Shryke's question

It's been so long since I've read that, but wasn't there an a'dam in there? I can't remember how they phrased their question for 'need'. It could be as simple as the powerful angreal/sa'angreal that were stored there that would augment their power. Gah - now I'm curious.

Something I've read is that Sanderson said something rather small is mentioned first in book 4 and then mentioned since is going to be important. He hasn't seen much if any discussion about it, but once it's revealed, we will be slapping our foreheads. Anyone else hear this or have any ideas?

[Humble Asskicker]

Also, something else that often seems forgotten:

While looking for something Rand "Needs", Elayne and Nynaeve eventually find the Bowl of the Winds.

But before that, they end up in the White Tower, in a store-room for what Elayne believes are x-angreal of unknown purpose/use/etc.

I wonder what's in there?

What chapter?

And the interesting thing is, while the Forsaken aren't doing that great in toe-to-toe confrontations with Rand, said Confrontations are few and far between.

They are, on the other hand, succeeding brilliantly at everything else they are up to. They distanced him from his allies, crushed potential alliances before they form and generally sowed mistrust, death, chaos and generally just problems in front of his every step.

The prologue in book eight where Moridin is contemplating the Fisher also ponders the direct approach versus the indirect approach.

I think you can only call them useless and weak if all you consider is straight up fights face to face.

That's the thing. I guess expectations of how confrontations occur, after so much build-up, is that there's even a chance for the baddies to succeed - even the illusion of a chance. Certainly, things have gone well for the DO, but the visceral element of battle is one of the things people look forward to. I certainly do. Maybe that was the point: that one shouldn't derive enjoyment from what is going on superficially, or that the face-to-face battles are irrelevent and it's the mental battle that is all-important, but it's hard thing to receive.

Maybe that will change with the concluding volumes. I know book 12 changed my opinions on a lot of things.

[Shryke]

It's in Chapter 13: Under The Dust.

And no, not an a'dam.

Something I've read is that Sanderson said something rather small is mentioned first in book 4 and then mentioned since is going to be important. He hasn't seen much if any discussion about it, but once it's revealed, we will be slapping our foreheads. Anyone else hear this or have any ideas?

I've heard some discussion on this and the thing I pointed out above or maybe Shara are 2 ideas that seemed the most reasonable out of any I've heard. But I don't know what people discuss exactly so I'm not sure what's been talked about and what hasn't.

The other big interesting question is still "Where the fuck is Demandred?".

That's the thing. I guess expectations of how confrontations occur, after so much build-up, is that there's even a chance for the baddies to succeed - even the illusion of a chance. Certainly, things have gone well for the DO, but the visceral element of battle is one of the things people look forward to. I certainly do. Maybe that was the point: that one shouldn't derive enjoyment from what is going on superficially, or that the face-to-face battles are irrelevent and it's the mental battle that is all-important, but it's hard thing to receive.

Maybe that will change with the concluding volumes. I know book 12 changed my opinions on a lot of things.

Well, I think the fact that the big "World almost destroyed" conflict in TGS all happens in Rand's head points even more towards merely physical battles not being enough.

And as you say, Moridin's bits in POD seem to indicate that the real battle the Dark One is fighting is for Rand's soul essentially.

[Liadin]

Re: Handling Rand

I think the big problem all these people have is that they think they can manipulate him and control his every move, and they wind up making enemies of him, or at the very least having him mistrust them. And it doesn't help their case that plenty of times he turns out to be more "right" than his advisors. But he does need advisors, just not people who are going to try to either force him to do things their way, or sneak around with mysterious plots concerning him.

Re: The Forsaken

Well, they did get to their positions through backstabbing others, so it makes sense in a way. Plus, the DO wanted them that way (I'm guessing he likes to "divide and rule" as much as the next tyrant). That said, I think even they could have teamed up to eliminate Rand if it hadn't broken the plot. And it is a cliche in fantasy, just as the overconfident baddies are a cliche--but then, Jordan's work is all about giving the old tropes a makeover and bringing them out again fresh and sparkling, so whether the use of the tropes makes it bad or not depends on how good a writer you think he is.

Re: Insults

Calling people's ideas stupid is no more courteous than calling them stupid. Making a reasoned and polite defense is always better.

[Piper]

When did Tam get awesome?

The Aiel War?

[Werthead]

Something I've read is that Sanderson said something rather small is mentioned first in book 4 and then mentioned since is going to be important. He hasn't seen much if any discussion about it, but once it's revealed, we will be slapping our foreheads. Anyone else hear this or have any ideas?

The Mercedes Benz hood ornament? Or the giraffe skeleton? :P

My guess is that it could be something from the Panarch' museum, but more likely maybe something from Rand's vision in Rhuidean? We know Aviendha is returning to Rhuidean for her own testing to become a Wise One, so maybe it's something related to that?

[fionwe1987]

The Mercedes Benz hood ornament? Or the giraffe skeleton? :P

My guess is that it could be something from the Panarch' museum, but more likely maybe something from Rand's vision in Rhuidean? We know Aviendha is returning to Rhuidean for her own testing to become a Wise One, so maybe it's something related to that?

I'll say one thing... when authors usually take a tiny thing from past books and make a big deal out of them, I usually roll my eyes. Its rarely done subtly enough that you really smack your head for not seeing it.

With Jordan, tGS proved beyond doubt that this is one of his greatest gifts. The way he uses foreshadowing is amazing.

[Slurktan]

The Mercedes Benz hood ornament? Or the giraffe skeleton? :P

My guess is that it could be something from the Panarch' museum, but more likely maybe something from Rand's vision in Rhuidean? We know Aviendha is returning to Rhuidean for her own testing to become a Wise One, so maybe it's something related to that?

I haven't read Shadow Rising in a while but my guess would be that it is something that Birgitte says to Perrin in the wolf dream, likely something pertaining to the Tower of Ghenjei seeing as Mat is going there.

[Shryke]

I believe he actually said "in books 4-6", so it's not specific to TSR.

Something else I found in LOC:

When Rand goes to Shadar Logoth to put traps on the Waygate, he channels.

Now there's the sort of resonance between the Taint and SL (hinting at the Cleansing obviously) but there's also a reverberation that makes him want to throw up. And this reminded me ALOT of the problems he's been having with channeling Saidin since his encounter with Moridin in SL while fighting Sammael.

[Gertrude]

Shryke, that last one isn't bad. I'd think it would be something like that rather than something mentioned only briefly and never again (hood ornament). It's something we've just become accustomed to and it's never been explained. I would assume that has been discussed to death on Jordan forums though, but I could be wrong.

And Tam has always been awesome.

[Shryke]

It can't be the sickness, as that's been discussed to death.

The 2 criteria afaik are:

1) first appears in books 4-6

2) never really discussed on the forums

Wotmania (or whatever) has a big long thread on it with some decent ideas for what it might be.

[Narayan]

Also, something else that often seems forgotten:

While looking for something Rand "Needs", Elayne and Nynaeve eventually find the Bowl of the Winds.

But before that, they end up in the White Tower, in a store-room for what Elayne believes are x-angreal of unknown purpose/use/etc.

I wonder what's in there?

I always figured it was the store room where the horn of va'lere was stored in book 3.

It's been made very clear in the prophecy that it needs to be there for the last battle.

I hope Siuan remembers where she put it ;)