The Wheel of Time

[fionwe1987]

Hmmm...

Followers of the Dark One are always goning on about debasing themselves before the Dark One or his minions. humiliating onanother, taking cheap shots etc.

If you want me to believe that Semi turned up at the pit of doom and said "you better let me join your organisation or I'll torture your ass, maggot" and managed to hold onto her pride intact throughout her climb up the ranks of the forsaken then you'll have to write it in letters of fire in the sky. The whole 'breaking' of Semirhage is absolutely ridiculous. It's the worst scene in the book by miles and it stands out like a steaming pile of turd in what it otherwise a decent entry into the Wheel of Time saga.

Lets see... according to your (atrocious) logic, anyone who prays to God must be completely servile and humble, right?

I mean, kings pray and humble themselves before representations of Gods. Does that mean they'll be cool if they're asked to kneel before servants?

And that is all Semirhage has done. She has paid obeisance to the Dark One, the powerful and evil counterpart of the Creator. She was always a successful Forsaken, so we have no reason to believe she begged for his mercy like Moghedien did when she was about to be mind trapped. Even if that did happen, it was in the pit of doom, in front of someone with awe inspiring power. Never once has she been humiliated in front of the other Forsaken. Her reputation precedes her, and even her allies are nervous around her.

The situation here is different. She despises people with the name Aes Sedai, and as she says herself, thinks these modern day Aes Sedai are useless children who are bugs in comparison to her. Added to that, there were servants who watched her being spanked.

For the past few days, since her capture, she's shown imperious control. The Aes Sedai, despite themselves, are in awe of her. She's a legend, and the Aes Sedai show that in their treatment of her. They're weary, they're cautious, and all their usual arrogance and domineering behavior is totally absent around her.

Then, suddenly, these very same women see her treated like a kid, and not for information or something but because she refused to eat food! Cadsuane treated her like a kid throwing a tantrum.

At first, Semirhage resists. She doesn't make a sound, and since she can handle pain, its not an issue.

But the amazement she sees in the people witnessing her humiliation, and probably the realization they have that she is only human, after all, no matter what she knows and has done, is what breaks her.

Semirhage is a bully. Sure, her means of inflicting pain are far more cruel and powerful than any school boy can have. But, like them, she thrives in the aura of fear she radiates. She needs continual validation that those around her are afraid of her, that her mere presence can make them shifty.

By showing the Aes Sedai how to treat her like a kid, it was this sense of control that Cadsuane stripped off Semirhage. Suddenly, her reputation, her long list of impressively gruesome crimes, her power and her knowledge, none of those mattered. Everyone had realized that shielded and imprisoned, none of those things mattered.

It became obvious that no one would tread carefully around her now. Cadsuane didn't even do her the courtesy of using the Power to give her pain. She was suddenly worse off than all her patients (in her mind), because her defiance, instead of causing a change in her enemies approach would henceforth be treated as a tantrum to be punished casually.

This kind of treatment can be bad enough, but in a person used to nothing but control, to nothing but people fearful of her, it can indeed weaken her will phenomenally. It is a novel situation for her, and she has no clue how to react.

Makes sense to me...

I'm not going to back down on the whole kink thing I think Jordan had going on because well that's my reading. But on the other hand I have neither the time nor inclination to read 12 books and come back with some citations and literary criticism. So whatever. I find the impetus on you to defend the Semirhage scene, however.

I believe I have done so.

[Arthmail]

What is particularly irritating is that you haven't encountered the character in the books, haven't even see how she's broken, and think you can make an objective argument about it!

Go back and actually read my posts before you get all frothy. You were jumping all over someone's comment, and i was responding to it based off the information at hand. Even if the Forsaken are little more dangerous than two Trollocs fucking in a field, the idea that a simple spanking is enough to break her, no matter how much you try and forgive it, is ridiculous.

And there are multiple mentions of the Forsaken being powerful even in their own time, which is considered to have produced a great deal more powerful Channelers than current, but this doesn't add up over the course of the books. Perhaps its deliberate, perhaps not, but it's disappointing. Their politics, for all of their machinations, are pitiful.

Finally, where exactly does the notion that all evil people have to plot and back stab all of the time come from? I mean this in general, really, but why wouldn't they work together to achieve their own ends? A few of them hitting Rand right from the start would have ended it. It seems like a cliche, all of the infighting. I can understand, given the context of who they are, i'm just saying it would be neat to see evil people use their brains for once.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Guys, two things please:

1. Given that the thread was started by an admitted WOT n00b - please use spoiler tags for anything after TSR.

2. Leave off with the personal sniping. WOT threads always create strong opinions but please try and be civil.

Thanks.

[/MOD]

[Grogsmash]

Fionwe, you clearly love the Wheel of Time and I admire that. I once used to love it almost as much as you and thought it was flawless. However, I think your spirited defense of every criticism ends up only making it worse as far as this thread goes. You seem incapable or unwilling to concede that any scene or theme in the book is internally inconsistent or bad. Anytime someone posts some complaint about the series, you end up posting a page or two of defense, no matter how trivial the complaint. This ends up turning this thread into a constant back and forth of arguments over the flaws of the series, drowning out the many good things.

My question to you, do you have any complaints at all about the series? Any scenes that bothered you at all?

Since I have been very negative about the books so far, I just want to make a few things clear for the people like Arthmail that might be considering finishing it. The Wheel of Time is definitely something that any fan of fantasy should read. It truly is epic in all senses. Large numbers of diverse cultures and peoples, from the militant individual Aiel to the structured Seanchan. A unique and colorful history that is constantly hinted at and referenced, from Artur Hawking to the Age of Legends, that by itself could have given RJ things to write about for another few centuries. Strong female characters that are missing so often in other epic fantasies. Enemies that are truly to be feared, yet not all powerful, people with weaknesses and strengths. Storylines that are foreshadowed through multiple books with some huge and enjoyable payoffs.

Read it if you haven't. Only in books 8-10 do things really start to drag and even then you see some great scenes.

[Alexia]

Read it if you haven't. Only in books 8-10 do things really start to drag and even then you see some great scenes.

I'm on the same page. There are a lot of things that bother me with it and I feel that it didn't live up to its potential. But the world drew me in and when I first read it, I would stay up until 1am to finish. I have a lot of affection for the series, the world-building is great, Mat was my favorite character and I was fascinated by the Seanchin.

Its the first epic fantasy I ever read - my first foray outside of Darkover and Valdemar as a teen. I have a queer affection for it. I didn't run to buy TGS in hardcover like I had in the past; I'm still too traumatized by spending $30 on Crossroads of Twilight. But I'll buy it when it comes out in paperback and I'll do a re-read. Seeing flaws and weak points doesn't mean I don't like the series. ASOIAF is my single favorite fantasy series and I still see flaws and weak points (Ironborn... :leaving: ).

[fionwe1987]

Go back and actually read my posts before you get all frothy.

I'm going to ignore the needless personal insult. For the second time.

You were jumping all over someone's comment, and i was responding to it based off the information at hand. Even if the Forsaken are little more dangerous than two Trollocs fucking in a field, the idea that a simple spanking is enough to break her, no matter how much you try and forgive it, is ridiculous.

But the information at hand is not complete, so exactly how can you enter the discussion with anything meaningful?

And there are multiple mentions of the Forsaken being powerful even in their own time, which is considered to have produced a great deal more powerful Channelers than current, but this doesn't add up over the course of the books. Perhaps its deliberate, perhaps not, but it's disappointing. Their politics, for all of their machinations, are pitiful.

Again, based on, what, five books where there are pitifully few Foresaken PoVs, you make a sweeping statement about their competence?

I'd be the first to agree that when it comes to physical combat, most of them sucked big time. But politically, they've done a lot, which we cannot even discuss since you haven't read the books!

Finally, where exactly does the notion that all evil people have to plot and back stab all of the time come from? I mean this in general, really, but why wouldn't they work together to achieve their own ends? A few of them hitting Rand right from the start would have ended it. It seems like a cliche, all of the infighting. I can understand, given the context of who they are, i'm just saying it would be neat to see evil people use their brains for once.

They do try. As we see in the beginning of book 5,

Spoiler

Lanfear proposes an alliance that includes Graendal and Sammael and Rahvin. But she began with the intent of backstabbing them and supporting Rand at the critical moment.

Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana have collaborated for a long time too. As you will see, some things come out of this, later.

But you're right, it would be nice to see cooperation between bad guys. But given that the bad guys here have no other reason for their evil but self-promotion, I'm not surprised at the lack of cooperation. See, however, the Black Ajah, which does cooperate much more. That does lead to some gains, over time, for them.

[fionwe1987]

Fionwe, you clearly love the Wheel of Time and I admire that. I once used to love it almost as much as you and thought it was flawless. However, I think your spirited defense of every criticism ends up only making it worse as far as this thread goes. You seem incapable or unwilling to concede that any scene or theme in the book is internally inconsistent or bad. Anytime someone posts some complaint about the series, you end up posting a page or two of defense, no matter how trivial the complaint. This ends up turning this thread into a constant back and forth of arguments over the flaws of the series, drowning out the many good things.

First off, even if this were true, as long as I actually rebut the criticism with reasoned points and quotes, I don't see why anyone needs to complain.

Yes, if I mindlessly defended everything and didn't bother to go beyond "Jordan Rocks!" as an argument, you'd have every right to tell me off.

However, I do concede that there are issues with the books, and in this very thread, I have done exactly that.

I agree with whoever said that Semirhage's breaking was handled clumsily. The method was fine, but the end result was too abrupt.

I kind of agree. Though sometimes the signs of the inns and the dresses have significance to the story, it is dwelled upon a little too much. A word of warning... it is going to get worse.

My question to you, do you have any complaints at all about the series? Any scenes that bothered you at all?

Plenty:

1) Vlan Luca. The damned damned circus is the one of the worst plot elements I've ever come across.

2) The pacing of books 8-10. Don't get me wrong, I think they're good enough books, but I'm unhappy that Jordan decided to simply write his way out of his troubles.

Sure, waiting for five years like Martin isn't an option either. But if he'd taken some time to review things post book 7, he could easily have shaved off one book from the series, and faced far less criticism.

3) Certain plot resolutions are too quick. I'm not going to mention them (spoilers), but this was an issue with KoD, where books and books of buildup ended abruptly, but didn't shock or serve any purpose.

There. Satisfied? Or must I balance each bit of praise with one criticism, just so you feel I'm not some rabid fanboy?

[Shryke]

RE: Semirhage

It's actually established in LOC that she was one of the very first to come to the Dark One so she may not have actually had to grovel.

Finally, where exactly does the notion that all evil people have to plot and back stab all of the time come from? I mean this in general, really, but why wouldn't they work together to achieve their own ends? A few of them hitting Rand right from the start would have ended it. It seems like a cliche, all of the infighting. I can understand, given the context of who they are, i'm just saying it would be neat to see evil people use their brains for once.

TGS makes is very clear that the Dark One is very much in favor of this kind of shit and approves of backstabbing and such among his followers.

There's also a scene at the start of LOC that's very telling of Forsaken relations. Sammael offers to link with Graendal and together they could easily crush Rand. She refuses though, because in a 2 person link he would have to be in control and she is not willing to put herself in his hands. They simple don't trust each other.

PS - I expected to be hating on the circus again in my reread, but surprisingly

it's only in 1 book for a few chapters the first time. It doesn't reappear after that till book 9 I believe. It actually doesn't get much screen time surprisingly (in remembering the series though, it always felt like it went on FOREVER though)

3) Certain plot resolutions are too quick. I'm not going to mention them (spoilers), but this was an issue with KoD, where books and books of buildup ended abruptly, but didn't shock or serve any purpose.

I agree. As much as I felt the pace of 8-10 were too slow, the sped up pace of KOD (and TGS to a certain extent) didn't work very well in some places and was horribly anti-climactic for quite a few plots.

[Dreadwolf]

What is particularly irritating is that you haven't encountered the character in the books, haven't even see how she's broken, and think you can make an objective argument about it!

I can say that for me that very scene worked.

I have no problems with that for you and may be the gross majority of the readers it did not.

But I firmly believe that you never can be sure how a human (be that Forsaken or ordinary one) will react of a spesific irritating factor. And what can cause the cup of endurance to brim over.

And that given the exact circumstances a character may response in one way or another (often out of the blue).

I read a poem once.

It was about a violin player (reconsidering his life). As he played - a chord tore. He then jumped over the window. To me the symbolism worked.

Semi had had great and risky plans. She took the challenge to actually not follow the DO orders as given. She had failed in so doing. As it happened (even with the most capable of us - the humans) The enthusiasm flied away and was replaced by something. Did she started to feel doomed - as never before? At that point (capture = total dowfall) or later on.

Many days passed - yet noone came to save her.

Speculatively she kept high spirit for she was aware these pathetic resemblance of Aes Sedai see the legend in her. And dreadfully feared her. And they cannot do nothing no matter how they try. These ... worms...

Can the lost pride and humiliation did all that for her. The psychological analysis provided by author might not be the greatest in the literature - but I still do not have so many problems with that.

(I repeat)I actually have no problem with all who read the book and discard its verisimilitude

To use your words - Particularly irritating to me is when one comment on something taken out of context w/o actually read the story.

But frankly speaking I often goes that way too. So I must look at my self first.

ETA: Clarification - I read all published WoT books icluding #12. My last statement above concerns hypothetic situations where I might have eagerly started debates on the grounds of my prejudises and scanty information. I admit that sometimes I did that.

[Arthmail]

I'm going to ignore the needless personal insult. For the second time.

Lets not take too much umbrage here. You have been coming in here and calling anyone's notions of disagreement idiotic, etc, for awhile. You don't simply respond with proper rebuttals, you attack the intelligence of the ideas that spawned them. I'm just calling you out for it.

But the information at hand is not complete, so exactly how can you enter the discussion with anything meaningful?

Oddly enough, half of the opinions formed by people are usually made with incomplete information. Your news sources are usually one sided, the materials you find for research papers are not always complete. Historians records of past events are rarely complete, and often have to be revised over the years as new data is entered. That does not prevent people from entering the discussion, nor does it remove any truths that they might find based on what they do know. Also, i don't need to read the scene to think that spanking is lame as shit as a form of punishment.

Again, based on, what, five books where there are pitifully few Foresaken PoVs, you make a sweeping statement about their competence?

I'd be the first to agree that when it comes to physical combat, most of them sucked big time. But politically, they've done a lot, which we cannot even discuss since you haven't read the books!

Reading book six right now, and i have yet to see anything that impresses me. Perhaps there is more in book nine, but so far, what have the Forsaken done? All of their machinations to take over various cities and nations have happened off screen, with the reader only seeing them once they are in their power base. One of the Forsaken has taken over Tear, we only see that at a distance. Rahvin took over Morgase's kingdom, having her serve basically as a proxy, but we didn't see how he did it. We are told again and again of these Forsaken's competence, but as of book six i have not seen that at all. Sammael slices some servant of Graendal's, i think, in half really out of spite. They have been getting picked off one by one by a sheep farmer, and can't really seem to get themselves at all ready. Now, i know that i haven't read it all, so perhaps things improve. I'll give it a chance, but i can't say i'm impressed at all right now.

[Humble Asskicker]

Lets not take too much umbrage here. You have been coming in here and calling anyone's notions of disagreement idiotic, etc, for awhile. You don't simply respond with proper rebuttals, you attack the intelligence of the ideas that spawned them. I'm just calling you out for it.

He's been rebutting your comments patiently, logically, consistently, and without resulting to the insults you are quick to throw. He may call ideas idiotic, but not the person (the difference between saying someone has a stupid idea and saying that someone is a stupid person).

I agree with you about Semi, but I also think you've been an asshat in this discussion. No offense intended, naturally.

[Lightning Lord]

The Forsaken, if they had their stuff together, could eliminate Rand pretty readily, esp early on. But that would mean they're working together, something they don't do so well. Which makes sense, IMO. They're evil people, used to stabbing others in the back to advance themselves. Those traits reduce their scary quotient, but it doesn't seem too far fetched, either.

Spanking in the series is ridiculous. I don't know a single adult who would resort to spanking another adult as a punishment. Yes, this is a different society, but come on. Perrin spanks Faile, Rand threatens to spank Min, Mat spanks AS and on and on and on. 'Tis lame. RJ probably wrote the ending as "And the Dragon spanked the DO, while Egwene looked on and sniffed. Verily, the DO howled his humiliation, being swatted on his bottom with the righteous hand of Rand. And the DO capitulated, ceding the land back to the Dragon for all time, as long as the promise of no more spanking was held in good faith."

[Humble Asskicker]

The Forsaken, if they had their stuff together, could eliminate Rand pretty readily, esp early on. But that would mean they're working together, something they don't do so well. Which makes sense, IMO. They're evil people, used to stabbing others in the back to advance themselves. Those traits reduce their scary quotient, but it doesn't seem too far fetched, either.

Yet the DO doesn't want Rand to be eliminated. He wants Rand to be manipulated. That still doesn't absolve the fact that when it does come to confrontations, the Forsaken are beyond pathetic.

RJ probably wrote the ending as "And the Dragon spanked the DO, while Egwene looked on and sniffed. Verily, the DO howled his humiliation, being swatted on his bottom with the righteous hand of Rand. And the DO capitulated, ceding the land back to the Dragon for all time, as long as the promise of no more spanking was held in good faith."

That sounds reasonable. The DO being spanked in front of his followers would shake his world. He's so accustomed to fear and respect that a bit of spanking would cow him into absolute submission. I didn't realize this before, but spanking really is the ultimate weapon to use against tyrants and despots.

[Arthmail]

He's been rebutting your comments patiently, logically, consistently, and without resulting to the insults you are quick to throw. He may call ideas idiotic, but not the person (the difference between saying someone has a stupid idea and saying that someone is a stupid person).

I agree with you about Semi, but I also think you've been an asshat in this discussion. No offense intended, naturally.

Frothy is an insult? What it actually implies, at least as i intended, is that a person is getting a little too worked up about something. Thats it. Its as much an insult as spanking is a punishment.

There is little difference between calling a person idiotic, and their ideas idiotic. If you call someone an idiot, it doesn't necessarily imply all of the time, it could be a single instance, but the difference between the words and thoughts of a person and the person himself is semantics. I was just pointing that out, as fionwe was very quick to point out to...coolkat i think it was.

Anyways, moving on.

[Alexia]

Its as much an insult as spanking is a punishment.

Not trying to take sides in this particular battle but I just thought I'd mention that I think my daughters consider spanking to be a very unpleasant punishment. :P

[Dreadwolf]

There is little difference between calling a person idiotic, and their ideas idiotic.

As an attempt of reconcilement If the old joke can work here: There is a saying that in fact <idiot is a man full of ideas>

[Humble Asskicker]

There is little difference between calling a person idiotic, and their ideas idiotic.

A smart person can occasionally have an idiotic idea. It's actually common, and simply means that you're not infallible. An idiotic person can occasionally have a smart idea, but this is not common because that person is an idiot.

Do you really have a problem seeing the difference, or are you too busy frothing to comprehend? (You're right, it's not insulting or condescending in the least.)

Anyway, to a worthier topic, Sanderson has been stuck on 82% completion for a couple of months now. Anyone have an idea what's happening on that front? He's been a machine up to this point, so I wouldn't blame him if he decided to take a break.

[fionwe1987]

A smart person can occasionally have an idiotic idea. It's actually common, and simply means that you're not infallible. An idiotic person can occasionally have a smart idea, but this is not common because that person is an idiot.

Do you really have a problem seeing the difference, or are you too busy frothing to comprehend? (You're right, it's not insulting or condescending in the least.)

Anyway, to a worthier topic, Sanderson has been stuck on 82% completion for a couple of months now. Anyone have an idea what's happening on that front? He's been a machine up to this point, so I wouldn't blame him if he decided to take a break.

I think he hinted that he's attempting a restructuring.

As it stands, the book is more like "what was not covered in tGS". Which makes sense, since it certainly seems like Jordan intended that the storylines of all the main cast move in parallel till they meet up before the final battle.

The split of that part of the story may have meant that the non-Egwene non-Rand parts of the story just don't gel all that well.

But Sanderson wants that for ToM too. He said he feels tGS has raised expectations, and he doesn't want ToM to be a limp follower.

Frankly, even if this means a few months to a year more, I don't care. As long as ToM is a worthy follower to tGS.

[MaesterLuwin]

If I understand, Sanderson's slow progress was the result of a taxing book tour combined with the recent birth of his second child. His blogs/tweets also seem to hint towards an anxiety of influence - TGS was well-received, and it seems that Sanderson is worried about ToM not being as good.

Also, isn't he writing some other 10 book series at the same time? I think he has a non-WoT book scheduled for release this year, but it looks like ToM won't be out till early 2011.

[Migey]

I dont think hes writing it yet... its planned for the future though (the 10 book series)