The Wheel of Time

[Alexia]

I used to be a big WOT fan but I agree that books 9 and 10 were absolutely horrible. :bang:

I haven't bought the 12th book yet. I figure that the series was such a huge letdown that its not worth it to me - I'm along for the ride since I loved it as a teen but I'll wait for it to come out in paperback before buying. I have new, good books sitting on my bookcase that I would rather read first.

[Shryke]

Surprising and relevant plot twist doesn't mean Red Wedding. The shock and horror of the Red Wedding comes from the fact that characters we loved are dead, that the North's political strength has been broken, etc. While the event mentioned here is important, no main characters died.... plus, it's typical for older characters in fantasy to leave their positions for one reason or another (death, incapacitated, disappeared, a coup) to make room for younger leaders from among the main characters. That's all that happened here. It's a political shake-up, but nothing happens that can't be made up for, and it's not all that unpredictable. Not Red Wedding level twist by any means.

As far as WoT, the first few books were great, but with #5, IMO, the decline began. The later books are some of the worst--yes, Dreadwolf, the worst period--books I've ever read, and I say that having skipped #9-10 (I was able to move on to #11 without problems though, as so little happened in those two that the highly entertaining Amazon reviews were able to fill me in). The most recent addition is somewhat better, but the jury's still out on the series as a whole.

You sir, are insane.

Book 4 through about 7 are the highlight of the series. When it stops being "Standard Quest" type stuff and really spreads ou into interesting territory.

[Liadin]

You sir, are insane.

Book 4 through about 7 are the highlight of the series. When it stops being "Standard Quest" type stuff and really spreads ou into interesting territory.

I'm a woman. ;)

IMHO, Robert Jordan's strength is with action-adventure. It may be cliche, but it doesn't feel like it with him. Politics, and dear god, relationships between people.... he just doesn't do that well. At all. I agree with you that he had interesting and less-commonly-appearing-in-fantasy ideas there, but if you can't execute them well.... what's the point?

[Alexia]

Politics, and dear god, relationships between people.... he just doesn't do that well.

To say nothing of female characters. He has the worst written female characters of any author I've ever read. I really feel sorry for him if his wife/mother/sisters were anything like the women he writes.

Did that change with Sanderson, BTW? Are the women still clones of a particularly shrewish crone or do they actually have distinct personalities now?

[alguien]

Very much so. Why the hell not? It was a far more political move, and was even more surprising to me than the Red Wedding.

Of the latter, we had some hints. But since:

Spoiler

But without knowing Alviarin was Black Ajah, there was no way we could suspect that there was any way Siuan would be deposed. Face trouble in the Hall, yes, but the ouster itself was damn shocking. And the fallout was much bigger. A three thousand year old seat of power broken, with both halves manipulated by a Forsaken and a highly placed Black Sister, the first instance of two openly declared Amyrlins, etc. What's not to like?

Also, could you spoiler tag to the event. Some people in the thread haven't read it yet.

Umm,..because its nowhere even near as emotionally compelling, shocking, or important to the narrative as Red Wedding?

Because it was a "meh" event whereas the I've known people who've cried or kicked down the door, thrown down the book because of the Red Wedding?

Besides, Amrylin's have been deposed before. Why are you acting like its unheard of. Two before Siuan was tortured to death by the BA. Several Amrylin's have fallen.

[Shryke]

The politics aren't terribly complex but they well done enough. Mostly the politics is glossed over anyway as it's more about the characters reaction to the situation.

One of the main focus of the middle books is, for instance, Rand and the growing effect being who and what he is has on him as a person. The same is true for Mat and Perrin and Egwene and so on. It's all quite well done.

Plotting wise Jordan also let's the shit hit the fan as it were. He continually frustrates the readers desire for everything to wrap up and work out for the best.

To say nothing of female characters. He has the worst written female characters of any author I've ever read. I really feel sorry for him if his wife/mother/sisters were anything like the women he writes.

Did that change with Sanderson, BTW? Are the women still clones of a particularly shrewish crone or do they actually have distinct personalities now?

See, I agree that the women display far too many of the same characteristics when it comes to certain things. That in the Two Rivers there was this "Town Council vs Women's Circle" dynamic going on, I could buy. But he repeats the motif far too often. There's often too much of the "Women sniff loudly and know better then Men" thing.

But aside from the rampant similarities in outlook on gender issues, the women are actually drawn quite well. They are distinct, they react believably and interact mostly believably (at least, which each other).

Frankly, while I've been rereading the series right now, I sometimes think the issue is alot of the middle books are done from the perspective of Nynaeve and her personality colours alot of the narrative.

[Dreadwolf]

.. the worst period--books I've ever read, and I say that having skipped #9-10 (I was able to move on to #11 without problems though, as so little happened in those two that the highly entertaining Amazon reviews were able to fill me in). The most recent addition is somewhat better, but the jury's still out on the series as a whole.

If I had been honest - I should have admitted in advance that I was always a bad reader. I mean I often read diagonally. It is may be habitual from the time when my main readings were school textbook and manuals.

IMO it helps in every-day business correspondence as well. That is to say I more or less have been adhering to the system suggested by the The Humble Asskicker above. (I saw he is recently reborn but unfortunately I have no idea how else to address him now. Is that re-incarnation in Chinese BTW? )

My daughter has recently tried the series (not after my recommendation). She is 14 now and when reached #2 told me that it became very uninteresting to read endless Ayes Seday*s conversations. (I however liked theses parts generally speaking). I saw that she put WoT aside for a while and started other series. I am not sure how it will end or continue and I started to wonder would it be good if I teach her some of my reading <know-how>. But since I feel some guilt for the righteousness of it I most probably will let her alone with that. OTOH my son started the books at the same age and is still a big fan (now 21).

[Dreadwolf]

Did that change with Sanderson, BTW? Are the women still clones of a particularly shrewish crone or do they actually have distinct personalities now?

You are talking about miracles my lady.

The (authors)series use magic as a plot device in the narrating only but not in their everyday activity.

[The Winged Shadow]

I started my re-read a couple of weeks back. I wanted to refresh my memories on where things stand before i start on the Gathering Storm.

I just started on Lord of Chaos and enjoying it alot, specially the Forsaken PoV. I am starting to find Egwene really annoying for some reason though, don't remember being annoyed by her before. Mat's chapter are still my favorite. I specially like the tidbits of memories that get revealed. It really helps create a sense of rich history imo, even though it's only tiny bits. I pretty much skip through Perrin's chapter though. For whatever reason, his PoV doesn't hold much re-read interest for me.

And still didn't figure out who killed Asmodean, and i was paying a lot of attention too. :(

[elmis]

The thread starter hasn't read past book four, let's respect that even if the events discussed were written ten years ago.

[Migey]

Thanks elmis :)

im ok with you all talking about events later in the book as long as you put them in a spoiler tag or a big spoiler warning.

Usually im all for spoilers, but since i had the red wedding spoiled for me beforehand, i found it certainly wasnt as big a shock. I want to try a series without any spoilers for myself and see how it works :D

[wolverine]

Shryke, on 04 February 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:

You sir, are insane.

I'm a woman. ;)

So...Is the implication that you are a woman, thus you are insane...

...or you are a woman, thus you are not a sir?

[undergroundnoob]

To say nothing of female characters. He has the worst written female characters of any author I've ever read. I really feel sorry for him if his wife/mother/sisters were anything like the women he writes.

Did that change with Sanderson, BTW? Are the women still clones of a particularly shrewish crone or do they actually have distinct personalities now?

Believe it or not, the female roles are pretty good in "The Gathering Storm." Some of their traits linger, but it's nowhere near as aggravating as it was previously.

[Liadin]

To say nothing of female characters. He has the worst written female characters of any author I've ever read. I really feel sorry for him if his wife/mother/sisters were anything like the women he writes.

Did that change with Sanderson, BTW? Are the women still clones of a particularly shrewish crone or do they actually have distinct personalities now?

Agree. They got a little better with Sanderson, but obviously if he'd changed them too much the fans would have thrown fits.

So...Is the implication that you are a woman, thus you are insane...

...or you are a woman, thus you are not a sir?

The second one. ;)

[Humble Asskicker]

Agree. They got a little better with Sanderson, but obviously if he'd changed them too much the fans would have thrown fits.

Or celebrate.

[Liadin]

Or celebrate.

You're right, probably more would have celebrated than thrown fits. But the hardcore types who don't want anything to change would have been the ones writing Sanderson nasty emails had much changed.

Alexia, I do think Sanderson understands that there's more than one type of woman in the world, and so in TGS they aren't all the interchangeable caricatures the way they'd been previously. The braid-tugging, skirt-smoothing universal mannerisms are toned down a lot. Sanderson does maybe a better job of developing them than we'd see before. But they're still Jordan characters at heart.

[Lightning Lord]

Migey,

Good luck making it through the rest of the series. I agree with the general assessment so far: after book #6 things start to slow and eventually I refused to buy the books because I actively disliked reading them. I would borrow them just to skim through and try to reach the end, but more out of desire to finish the story than actual enjoyment. I was convinced here to buy book #12, it was a refreshing change and I am happy with the purchase.

Hang in there, skim what you have to, assume you didn't miss much if it was books 8-10. Honestly, I think you'd do fine just not reading those at all and piecing it together from this board and reviews and character flashbacks.

Try not to read my sig, it's got a spoiler.

On a different note, this thread has been a lot of fun to read with blocked messages. It's like a Mad Lib with posts, I just fill in whatever I want and check later with other people's quotes.

Something in WoT on an emotional scale with RW? :dunno: Nope.

[Shryke]

The braid-tugging, skirt-smoothing universal mannerisms are toned down a lot.

I'm on book 6 so far and no one even HAS a braid but Nynaeve.

There's really only 1 person tugging it. (Although Elayne does some moustache tugging.....)

[Alexia]

The worst of the Randland women was Min.

For crying out loud. She falls in love and then suddenly starts wearing makeup, curling her hair, and turns her entire wardrobe to silk, lace, and heels? Women don't do that! I have a friend who is a bit of a tomboy - she'll dress up a little to impress a guy but she doesn't do a complete 180 on her personality!

Faile is almost as bad - the only thing I can come up to call her is shrew.

And God, dear God,

Please tell me Sanderson didn't continue with the spanking theme! WTF was going on with grown men spanking women?! It was one thing when it was hinted at when Perrin and Faile first met up but Mat and that Seanchin girl (can't remember her name) were so far over the top they fell off the edge!

And the list, how could I ever forget Rand's list? :bang:

[Shryke]

A few things:

1) Min

She doesn't start dressing like that till she starts hanging out with Leane after fleeing the Tower. Leane is trying to relearn her skills at flirting with men for financial gain and Min picks up some pointers from her. Maybe she changes more later, but so far she's added a little rouge and some embroidery to her clothes.

2) Spanking

People harp on this all the time, but I've so far seen little to none of it. It's mentioned obliquely as punishment in the Tower and there's the occasional threat of spanking when someone is acting childish.

And what's wrong with Rand's list?