The Judging Eye VI

[Darzin]

Exactly if Moenghus was super powerfull he woudn't have needed Kellhus he could have acted out the Thousandfold thought and ascended to power himself. The only reason for him to send for Kellhus is because he is weak. If he was really strong he woudn't need a Dunyain mucking things up.

[lokisnow]

Isn't it interesting that Moe made TWO irrevocable and monumental physical changes to his body for extremely limited dividends? He made the same mistake twice, and both mistakes kept him from being able to access the greater power structures of the Three Seas.

Almost as though the Gods were interfering with his intellect. Or he thought he was so smart he deceived himself.

But really, isn't it suspiciously out of character that after making the Swazond Mistake he then proceeds to make the Eye-Gouging mistake?

The Dunyain really are heartless, that's some intense bodily alteration he underwent voluntarily, twice.

I'm going to assume Moe never saw non Cis sorcery in action before deciding to go for the Cis sorcery.

ETA. It's interesting to note the differences between Moe and Kells approach to using people. With Kell people don't even know they're puppets. with Moe, he admits his influence wanes rapidly as soon as someone leaves his presence. Kell makes people think that they themselves are making decisions, Moe makes people think they have no choice but to obey Moe. Moe's battleaxe tactics towards people, and his utter contempt for them is unchanged from the time he used Cnaiur. The callous way he ripped through culture, taboo, social constructs etc to force Cnaiur to his will bespeaks a lack of patience and imagination. And it's very likely he may have displayed a similar contempt for Kian culture as he ripped through there--likely this also further hampered him.

and it seems that this may be more indicative of Dunyain psychology as well, Because Kell's first two encounters display the same characteristics of the contempt and Moe BattleAxe approach. First with Luweth, secondly with Mek.

The question is, which of four things completely changed Kell's approach from Battle-Axe Dunyain to Scalpel Dunyain? The Encounter with Mek, and witnessing of gnostic sorcery? Acquiring Followers in Atraithau? Imprisonment by the reverse-conditioned Cnaiur? Serwe?

[Nerdanel]

You should all read the meeting scene again and pay attention to what Kellhus says and what Moënghus himself says. The scene even outright says that Kellhus was speaking in generalities. He was trying to cold-read his father, but that kind of thing doesn't work if the target doesn't indicate how close to the mark the medium is hitting, and cold-reading Moënghus was much like cold-reading a stone wall.

Moënghus couldn't become the heresiarch since the Fanim have a law that the heresiarch must be Kianene. Moënghus still became the second ranking Cishaurim, with several fanatic followers in the ranks of the lesser Cishaurim. After the Holy War, however, I suspect Moënghus did manage to make himself the heresiarch by the virtue of every competitor being dead.

Moënghus needed Kellhus as the Aspect-Emperor in order to unify the factitious Three Seas into a manageable and predictable whole, with some help from Maithanet as the Shriah. There is a scene where Kellhus thinks that predicting the entire Three Seas is too much for him, making the fate of the system unknowable. He solves that problem by simplifying the situation. I think Moënghus summoned Kellhus so that Kellhus would unite and simplify the political field and in turn make it predictable and controllable by Moënghus himself. Moënghus himself could hardly have become the Aspect-Emperor, what with being a Cishaurim with Scylvendi scars and all, making him double hated in the Nansur Empire, but he could become the hidden power guiding Kellhus's path. Being able to use magic undetected and un-Marked is a vast advantage that could, depending on the situation, be a greater asset than the sheer obvious power of the Gnostic sorcery.

By the way, I've been thinking that Moënghus and his fellow Cishaurim probably discovered the skin-spies not by hearing but by scent. Snakes have a good sense of smell, and it would be easy for a human like Kellhus to forget about that sense and its power entirely.

[Spring Bass]

I'm going to assume Moe never saw non Cis sorcery in action before deciding to go for the Cis sorcery.

That's what Kellhus' recounting more or less said - that Moenghus steered clear of the Nansurium, instead heading south to end up in Fanim territory.

The swazond mistake doesn't surprise me. They are extremely bright and perceptive, but they're starting from a very limited knowledge base about the world, so wrong assumptions and mistakes are more than possible. I remember how Kellhus nearly died at the beginning of the first book, simply because he had no knowledge on how to survive in the wilds outside of Ishual when he left.

You could say that Kellhus got lucky (or it could be the God or gods interfering, as you suggest). Running into Leweth was a major break for him, since he managed to learn, in a distorted form, some things about the world, Atrithau, and the Three Seas.

It makes you wonder how Moenghus survived after his expulsion. I always thought it was interesting that he was traveling with Sranc (presumably as their prisoner) when the Scylvendi captured and enslaved him. I'm curious as to how he managed that (instead of being cut up and corpse-fucked by them).

Imprisonment by the reverse-conditioned Cnaiur?

I think it was the encounter with Cnaiur, who had experienced the Full Dunyain manipulation and was constantly watching and evading him, making it virtually impossible for Kellhus to possess/enslave him. It forced him to work at his methods, becoming more and more subtle, and he applied that to the highly complex political and military situation he found himself in during the Holy War.

Good catch, though. I wasn't as aware of the distinction until you mentioned it.

Moënghus couldn't become the heresiarch since the Fanim have a law that the heresiarch must be Kianene. Moënghus still became the second ranking Cishaurim, with several fanatic followers in the ranks of the lesser Cishaurim.

That's possible, but it sounds like the kind of thing he'd be able to work around, were it not for the fact that he's pathetically weak in the Psukhe. It's mentioned specifically as a reason why he could never truly dominate - the Cishaurim respected his intellect, but then pitied him behind his back for what they saw as his "curse".

As for the whole Moenghuspiracy - Nerd, come on. You're doing a lot of speculating on some very thin evidence. Moreover, Moenghus didn't rebut anything that Kellhus said, and much of it was very specific, down to details of how he came to power and screwed up royally.

[lokisnow]

That's what Kellhus' recounting more or less said - that Moenghus steered clear of the Nansurium, instead heading south to end up in Fanim territory.

The swazond mistake doesn't surprise me. They are extremely bright and perceptive, but they're starting from a very limited knowledge base about the world, so wrong assumptions and mistakes are more than possible. I remember how Kellhus nearly died at the beginning of the first book, simply because he had no knowledge on how to survive in the wilds outside of Ishual when he left.

You could say that Kellhus got lucky (or it could be the God or gods interfering, as you suggest). Running into Leweth was a major break for him, since he managed to learn, in a distorted form, some things about the world, Atrithau, and the Three Seas.

It makes you wonder how Moenghus survived after his expulsion. I always thought it was interesting that he was traveling with Sranc (presumably as their prisoner) when the Scylvendi captured and enslaved him. I'm curious as to how he managed that (instead of being cut up and corpse-fucked by them).

I think it was the encounter with Cnaiur, who had experienced the Full Dunyain manipulation and was constantly watching and evading him, making it virtually impossible for Kellhus to possess/enslave him. It forced him to work at his methods, becoming more and more subtle, and he applied that to the highly complex political and military situation he found himself in during the Holy War.

Good catch, though. I wasn't as aware of the distinction until you mentioned it.

The swazond mistake is forgiveable, but I wonder if Moe assumed that the People were the only or dominant culture on the planet. He also seemed to mainly pick up on swazond as symbolic value of status, whereas Kell would have perceived that The People were wrong about their contempt for Three Seas and would have noted the respect the People accord swazond is also because the People know the swazond scare the Three Seas people. He'd have read that off their faces. Moe's contempt seems to have done him no favors,but I wonder if that contempt was established and hardened by his travels with the Sranc. I wonder if Moe deciphered their language and I wonder if he sees the world born humankind as any different from Sranc? Kell would have weighed the Swazond decision more carefully I think.

I also think it was the encounter with Cnaiur that mainly caused Kell to sharpen and refine his methods. He had to practice and put forth effort to work Cnaiur. But I also think a variety of unlikely unconditioned circumstances shaped him to have a radically different approach to the world born than Moe had. an approach so different Moe never even considered it.

1. Kell was exposed to the truth of magic almost immediately, Moe would have labored under the arrogant assumption that magic was superstition for years, possibly.

2. Kell was totally dominated and mastered by magic in this encounter. he could not come before it. He ran away. I don't think Moe ever had to run away from anything.

3. Kell had to and recruit followers in Atraithau. Whether or not he left any survivors in Atraithau is yet to be seen. If Kell was still in Moe BattleAxe mode he would have slaughtered the population and taken the strongest men with him riding them hard and constantly to keep up their devotion to him. If Kell was somewhat humbled by the Mek encounter he may have been more subtle at learning world born men here, and learning what they knew of where he was headed and the world he was about to enter.

4. Cnaiur did not let any men speak to Kellhus. This gave him only woman's language to work with Cnaiur, which we're told was couched in misdirection, subservience and deference so these were the only tools he had to work with on Cnaiur and it further weakened his abilities.

5. Cnaiur was reverse conditioned by Moenghus and made whim and directionless variety his defenses. This forced Kellhus to more or less master subtle and indirect manipulations.

6. Serwe.

[Nerdanel]

That's possible, but it sounds like the kind of thing he'd be able to work around, were it not for the fact that he's pathetically weak in the Psukhe. It's mentioned specifically as a reason why he could never truly dominate - the Cishaurim respected his intellect, but then pitied him behind his back for what they saw as his "curse".

Something does not fit here. Kellhus guesses his father is pathetically weak in Psûkhe, so that even though the other Cishaurim respect his intelligence, they consider his weakness a curse from the God, which seriously hinders his status. Kellhus also thinks that Moënghus's Dûnyain abilities have suffered greatly since snakes are an inferior replacement for real eyes.

Meanwhile, we know that Moënghus is the second highest ranking Cishaurim and would have been the heresiarch save for him being non-Kianene. I remember reading somewhere that Maithanet's mother was a Kianene princess. According to the Nansur intelligence, the other Cishaurim fear Moënghus's power, which is totally different from pity and dismissal for his weakness that Kellhus says there is. And somehow, Moënghus has gained the fanatic loyalty of a number of other Cishaurim, which would be kind of difficult if Moënghus's suffered from both low Dûnyain abilities and being weak in the Psûkhe. I mean, those Cishaurim are willing to commit suicide at his command. That takes serious manipulation.

When Kellhus and reality are in conflict, I choose reality.

As for the whole Moenghuspiracy - Nerd, come on. You're doing a lot of speculating on some very thin evidence. Moreover, Moenghus didn't rebut anything that Kellhus said, and much of it was very specific, down to details of how he came to power and screwed up royally.

The question to ask is: Would Moënghus have wanted to correct Kellhus's misconceptions? If Moënghus predicted that the father-son relationship would become stabbity, which is likely considering that they both want to be the one to dominate the circumstances and both of them know it, it would have been against his interest to tell Kellhus more about himself than necessary to manipulate him.

[jurble]

According to the Nansur intelligence, the other Cishaurim fear Moënghus's power, which is totally different from pity and dismissal for his weakness that Kellhus says there is.

Nansur intelligence just hears Mallahet being mentioned all the time, and he's always spoken of in high regard, second to only Seokti. They assume that his high status means that he is extremely powerful, since the Incandanti (that's the name right?), the highest ranking members of the Cishaurim are usually incredibly badass and powerful. But, the only reason they're talking about Mallahet so often is because of the respect they have for his knowledge and wisdom, which he solidified with his exposing of the skin-spies.

[Spring Bass]

1. Kell was exposed to the truth of magic almost immediately, Moe would have labored under the arrogant assumption that magic was superstition for years, possibly.

It depends on how long it takes him to get to the Fanim lands. Once he was there, I doubt it was a very long time before he managed to get into Kian proper, and investigate those "Cishaurim" he'd already likely learned about beforehand.

2. Kell was totally dominated and mastered by magic in this encounter. he could not come before it. He ran away. I don't think Moe ever had to run away from anything.

It was certainly humbling, and something he didn't understand. I don't know whether that would change his manipulations on men, though, since neither Mek nor the Sranc were human.

It's telling, I think, that his first reaction was to try the "plains" remark that Moenghus used on Cnaiur. That's one of my favorite parts of the first book, too - the part where he says it and instantly realizes that he fucked up royally.

3. Kell had to and recruit followers in Atraithau. Whether or not he left any survivors in Atraithau is yet to be seen. If Kell was still in Moe BattleAxe mode he would have slaughtered the population and taken the strongest men with him riding them hard and constantly to keep up their devotion to him. If Kell was somewhat humbled by the Mek encounter he may have been more subtle at learning world born men here, and learning what they knew of where he was headed and the world he was about to enter.

I'll re-read the bit about Atrithau when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure he was more subtle (although still Moenghus-like). He said something like how all he'd had to do was say some wise-sounding words and suddenly he had fifty men from Atrithau willing to guard him as he made his way south. No mention about whether he ruined Atrithau.

4. Cnaiur did not let any men speak to Kellhus. This gave him only woman's language to work with Cnaiur, which we're told was couched in misdirection, subservience and deference so these were the only tools he had to work with on Cnaiur and it further weakened his abilities.

5. Cnaiur was reverse conditioned by Moenghus and made whim and directionless variety his defenses. This forced Kellhus to more or less master subtle and indirect manipulations.

I think another big part was that Cnaiur refused to be "awed" by Kellhus's abilities. A big part of what allows Kellhus to build up allegiance towards was his ability to awe other men with his perceptions as well as being able to identify their plans and neuroses, and he lost that instantly with Cnaiur. Whenever he said something meaningful, Cnaiur could always dismiss it and second-guess his own decisions.

6. Serwe.

Yup. In spite of his anemic emotional capabilities compared to normal men, he did seem to have some attachment to her, considering his emotional reaction to her rape by Cnaiur, and the whole bit on the Circumfix.

According to the Nansur intelligence, the other Cishaurim fear Moënghus's power, which is totally different from pity and dismissal for his weakness that Kellhus says there is. And somehow, Moënghus has gained the fanatic loyalty of a number of other Cishaurim, which would be kind of difficult if Moënghus's suffered from both low Dûnyain abilities and being weak in the Psûkhe. I mean, those Cishaurim are willing to commit suicide at his command. That takes serious manipulation.

Jurgle already mentioned that Nansur intelligence is not guaranteed reliable.

If Moënghus predicted that the father-son relationship would become stabbity, which is likely considering that they both want to be the one to dominate the circumstances and both of them know it, it would have been against his interest to tell Kellhus more about himself than necessary to manipulate him.

Why would Moenghus assume that the relationship would become stabbity? He probably believed that while Kellhus was sent to kill him, he would use the Holy War to build himself up into the type of ruler that Moenghus couldn't be due to his mistakes, so as to best counter the Consult. At the end, they would have shared the same goal of defeating the Consult, and could presumably work Moenghus into the plans somehow.

To put it more succintly, what Moenghus believed was predicated on the assumption that Kellhus would remain fundamentally Dunyain in the process (like Moenghus himself). If Kellhus had stayed as such, they would have shared goals and thus become allies (at least until Moenghus realizes he's damned, as Kellhus says and thinks). But he didn't, of course - Kellhus did not remain fundamentally Dunyain in the process.

[lokisnow]

Why would Moenghus assume that the relationship would become stabbity? He probably believed that while Kellhus was sent to kill him, he would use the Holy War to build himself up into the type of ruler that Moenghus couldn't be due to his mistakes, so as to best counter the Consult. At the end, they would have shared the same goal of defeating the Consult, and could presumably work Moenghus into the plans somehow.

To put it more succintly, what Moenghus believed was predicated on the assumption that Kellhus would remain fundamentally Dunyain in the process (like Moenghus himself). If Kellhus had stayed as such, they would have shared goals and thus become allies (at least until Moenghus realizes he's damned, as Kellhus says and thinks). But he didn't, of course - Kellhus did not remain fundamentally Dunyain in the process.

And if Moe remained fundamentally Dunyain he'd be totally cool with Kellhus killing him for the good of the mission. Like the polluted Dunyain elders going to the Thousand Thousand Halls to die when Kell leaves. Moe may have had no expectation of survival after handing off the mission to Kellhus. He may even have believed he also had to die as a polluted one/polluter of Dunyain.

[Spring Bass]

And if Moe remained fundamentally Dunyain he'd be totally cool with Kellhus killing him for the good of the mission. Like the polluted Dunyain elders going to the Thousand Thousand Halls to die when Kell leaves. Moe may have had no expectation of survival after handing off the mission to Kellhus. He may even have believed he also had to die as a polluted one/polluter of Dunyain.

Good point. Considering that he's contemptuous of the Outside (whereas the Dunyain back in Ishual just don't believe in it), it would be something he would undoubtedly consider doing (at least until he realizes he really is damned). He didn't seem perturbed until Kellhus mentioned that he was hearing the No-God's voice in his dreams, at which point he brought out the whole "I didn't calculate on you going mad" statement. Moreover, as we've discussed, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that Moenghus has made a major miscalculation based off of poor information.

I always thought that Bakker (who seems to be a major fan of subtext) put the whole Kellhus-Moenghus bit in there as part of a massive show of irony. At the beginning of the series, Kellhus leaves Ishual to kill the supposedly polluted Moenghus. Yet when he arrives, we find out that Moenghus has remained fundamentally Dunyain, while it is Kellhus that has been "polluted"/changed/enlightened.

[Nerdanel]

Nansur intelligence just hears Mallahet being mentioned all the time, and he's always spoken of in high regard, second to only Seokti. They assume that his high status means that he is extremely powerful, since the Incandanti (that's the name right?), the highest ranking members of the Cishaurim are usually incredibly badass and powerful. But, the only reason they're talking about Mallahet so often is because of the respect they have for his knowledge and wisdom, which he solidified with his exposing of the skin-spies.

The problem with this interpretation is that it presupposes that Nansur spies are incompetent.

"Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power."

It's one thing to have high rank. Several Cishaurim count as Incandati. It's not clear how well strength in Psûkhe correlates with that position, but if Mallahet's power level was special enough to get significant mention in the local rumors, it would have to be something unusual. The problem is that the Nansur are thinking it unusually high while Kellhus is thinking it unusually low. The Nansur spies have access to more and better empirical evidence though. Kellhus has never tried Psûkhe and knows very little of its inner workings, so his conclusions are unreliable.

Also, I don't think Moënghus alone would have been sufficient to rid the entire Kian of skin-spies, especially if he was doing it by listening to their voices. To avoid discovery, a skin-spy simply would have to never speak in his presence. That still leaves numerous potential avenues for infiltration. Therefore, I think all of the Cishaurim are able to detect skin-spies, and I think scent is the most likely way they are doing this. We know that the Consult embedded signal scents in the skin-spies, and shortly before he dies, Xerius notices that the fake Istriya smells strangely young. Therefore I don't think it was Moënghus's special ability here that kept Kian free of skin-spies, but plain old Consult bad planning and overlooking the abilities of their enemies.

[Xereaux]

"Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power."

Perhaps the power that the other Cishaurim fear is Moenghus's political power. I mean, if I was in an organization of some sort with a Dunyain in power, I'd damn well be scared. If said Dunyain decided that I needed to be killed or sent away or punished or any number of other things that could screw with my life, who would be able to stop him (or her)? I'd say that that's the kind of power to fear.

I remember nowhere in the mentions of Mallahet's fearsome power any indication that the feared power was magical ability. For that matter, I don't think that the kind of power was specified at all. From everything we learn about Moenghus in the series, I think that the description of him gaining his high rank through political ability despite his weakness with the Water is most likely to be true.

[Nerdanel]

Re: Kellhus's mission, there are three relevant factions at work here:

1. Moënghus

2. Kellhus

3. The Pragmas of Ishuäl

Moënghus has a plan. He wants Kellhus for it. Moënghus's plan does not come from Ishuäl but is rather something of the world outside of it.

Kellhus is sent to kill Moënghus, but he is free to ignore the opinion of Ishuäl since he can never go back. Thus Kellhus's real plan comes from the world outside of Ishuäl.

The Pragmas of Ishuäl appear to be the simplest here (as far as we know). All they want is to be left alone. Since leaving Ishuäl personally is counterproductive for their purpose, their choices are very limited.

The Pragmas have the following options:

1. Send Kellhus alone.

2. Send a non-Kellhus Dûnyain alone.

3. Send several Dûnyain, with or without Kellhus.

4. Send no one.

They can do next to nothing to control the actions of those sent, especially considering the unknowable circumstances outside. Therefore they have to make their decision based on their general knowledge of Dûnyain psychology. Also, Moënghus has a very serious weapon in the threat of disturbance. He can by proxy condemn Dûnyain to death by his dreams, and the Pragmas can only guess at how that works. Therefore, the Pragmas want Moënghus either dead, given up, or satisfied - preferably dead, since that's the only permanent state of the three. And any extra living Dûnyain outside of Ishuäl mean extra potential sources of disturbance.

Therefore, I think it's remarkable that Ishuäl succumbed to Moënghus's demand. Sending Kellhus specifically is explainable by how it makes Moënghus less likely to make further demands out of dissatisfaction, but sending any at all is different. Sending a Dûnyain means that that person is lost to Ishuäl, and Moënghus could interpret it as encouragement for more demands, etc. I think the Pragmas were counting on inter-Dûnyain conflict.

In a world where a Dûnyain is the natural enemy of another Dûnyain, the following results are likely for the sending of Kellhus:

1. The first step of Moënghus's special and important plan for Kellhus is satisfied in some unknowable way, and Moënghus lives to tell the tale. Moënghus is wary of asking more since he knows how the Dûnyain are.

2. Kellhus kills Moënghus. Kellhus is wary of disturbing Ishuäl lest he end up like his father.

3. Kellhus goes off the rails and Moënghus ends up having to kill him which is not trivial against a fellow Dûnyain. Moënghus is wary of asking more of that sort of trouble.

But since Moënghus knows how the Dûnyain think and presumably isn't insane, he can predict the response and the reasoning behind it. This means he should be prepared for the possibility for Kellhus trying to kill him, which means that his massive orchestration of events either ended in a massive elementary blunder or a well-planned fake death to fool Kellhus into stopping his effort to kill Moënghus, which means that Moënghus can live while his plan for Kellhus continues.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Moënghus couldn't become the heresiarch since the Fanim have a law that the heresiarch must be Kianene. Moënghus still became the second ranking Cishaurim, with several fanatic followers in the ranks of the lesser Cishaurim. After the Holy War, however, I suspect Moënghus did manage to make himself the heresiarch by the virtue of every competitor being dead.

Is this true? Moe was not among the Incandati, which were thought by the Spires to be the upper echelon of the Cishaurim. Is there textual evidence to support him as the highest rank of Cish under the Heresiarch?

Moënghus needed Kellhus as the Aspect-Emperor in order to unify the factitious Three Seas into a manageable and predictable whole, with some help from Maithanet as the Shriah. There is a scene where Kellhus thinks that predicting the entire Three Seas is too much for him, making the fate of the system unknowable. He solves that problem by simplifying the situation. I think Moënghus summoned Kellhus so that Kellhus would unite and simplify the political field and in turn make it predictable and controllable by Moënghus himself. Moënghus himself could hardly have become the Aspect-Emperor, what with being a Cishaurim with Scylvendi scars and all, making him double hated in the Nansur Empire, but he could become the hidden power guiding Kellhus's path. Being able to use magic undetected and un-Marked is a vast advantage that could, depending on the situation, be a greater asset than the sheer obvious power of the Gnostic sorcery.

If Moe actually had the kind of power that you claim, give me one good reason why he wouldn't have been able to use it to assume control himself. Sure there'd be a lot of opposition by the other Schools and nations, but the course of the Holy War gives us ample evidence that the Kianene Empire is nearly as strong as the rest of the Three Seas combined. If Moe had such enormous power, he would surely have been able to use his Dunyain abilities and magical strength to forge alliances and really wreak havoc.

Explain that, if you don't mind. WHY would such a powerful and apparently all-seeing Moe need Kellhus, unless he had somehow crippled himself.

Meanwhile, we know that Moënghus is the second highest ranking Cishaurim and would have been the heresiarch save for him being non-Kianene. I remember reading somewhere that Maithanet's mother was a Kianene princess. According to the Nansur intelligence, the other Cishaurim fear Moënghus's power, which is totally different from pity and dismissal for his weakness that Kellhus says there is. And somehow, Moënghus has gained the fanatic loyalty of a number of other Cishaurim, which would be kind of difficult if Moënghus's suffered from both low Dûnyain abilities and being weak in the Psûkhe. I mean, those Cishaurim are willing to commit suicide at his command. That takes serious manipulation.

When Kellhus and reality are in conflict, I choose reality.

All this proves is that Moe was still Dunyain. Sure he had weakened his abilities by blinding himself, but he had decades to work around his weakness and control a few people to the point that they'd commit suicide for him.

Remember, Moe was there for thirty years. He had plenty of time to work his Dunyain-ness. In fact, I think that this is evidence contrary to your point, as Kellhus, who was in full possession of his senses, was able to dominate the Holy War in only a few months, whereas Moe, blinded, was only able to gain a few fanatical followers in thirty years.

Think about that.

The problem with this interpretation is that it presupposes that Nansur spies are incompetent.

True, but just because Mallahet is known to have power doesn't mean he's strong in the Water. We know that he had a dedicated following and that he was extremely highly esteemed for his intellect. These are both types of power, and these are the things that Nansur spies would have heard.

Also, I don't think Moënghus alone would have been sufficient to rid the entire Kian of skin-spies, especially if he was doing it by listening to their voices. To avoid discovery, a skin-spy simply would have to never speak in his presence. That still leaves numerous potential avenues for infiltration. Therefore, I think all of the Cishaurim are able to detect skin-spies, and I think scent is the most likely way they are doing this. We know that the Consult embedded signal scents in the skin-spies, and shortly before he dies, Xerius notices that the fake Istriya smells strangely young. Therefore I don't think it was Moënghus's special ability here that kept Kian free of skin-spies, but plain old Consult bad planning and overlooking the abilities of their enemies.

As I recall, they hadn't necessarily rid all of Kian of skin-spies, just the Ctesiphon. The Consult were frustrated that they were unable to infiltrate the Cish anymore, not Kian as a whole, and if you recall they even believed that it had something to do with their "alien metaphysics."

[unJon]

It's going to be a great moment in the series, when the readers realize that they were fooled into thinking what Kel says = Truth as easily as the Worldborn in Bakkerworld.

[lokisnow]

in the very beginning of TDTCB Ajencis says that "what comes before" is the extant soul. If the Dunyain wish to become a self-moving soul that comes before what comes before, wouldn't that mean a self-moving soul is soulless?

Are the Inchoroi, lacking souls, already self-moving souls?

Why is it essential that intellect be the soul driver of a self-moving soul. Couldn't physicality be the soul driver of a self-moving soul?

Are Sranc self moving souls?

Inchoroi:sex::Dunyain:intellect

[Rhadamanth]

I could be wrong but I believe the Dunyain have a different view of the soul. Rather than "that which precedes everything" as Ajencis believed they believe that the soul is part of the world and therefore driven by prior events as much as anything else. Ajencis believed that the soul was already self moving but the Dunyain disagree. There's more in the Dunyain section of the TTT Glossary.

Oh and Sranc, Bashrag, and all the other Inchoroi creations are soulless save that one skin spy. The Inchoroi have souls.

[jurble]

Are the Inchoroi, lacking souls, already self-moving souls?

When Dunyain say self-moving soul, they mean free-will. You break free of the bounds of deterministic behavior. Every action you take can't be predicted, you aren't bound by circumstance. The Inchoroi are most definitely bound by circumstance.

[Old Nan]

Is this true? Moe was not among the Incandati, which were thought by the Spires to be the upper echelon of the Cishaurim. Is there textual evidence to support him as the highest rank of Cish under the Heresiarch?

Cememketri of the Imperial Saik states as much to Xerius in TDTCB, though Moënghus never explicitly says so either here or in TTT:

Mallahet . . . He had heard that name before, in one of Skeaös’s briefings. The one whose arms were scarred like a Scylvendi.

“So three are not enough,” Xerius replied, inexplicably heartened by his Grandmaster’s fear.

“Mallahet is second only to Seökti in the Cishaurim. And only then because their Prophetic Law bars non-Kianene from the position of Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!”

In the family chat during the battle of Shimeh Kellhus qualified that somewhat:

"Seökti and the others respect you," Kellhus continued. "Indeed, as Mallahet you have a reputation that reaches across Kian and beyond. And you shine in the Third Sight. But secretly, they all think you cursed by the Solitary God. Why else would the Water elude you?

And without your eyes, your ability to discern what comes before is much reduced. The snakes are but pinholes. For years you waged futile war against your circumstance, and though your intellect could astound those about you and earn you access to their most privileged counsels, the instant they found themselves beyond the force of your presence, the undermining whispers were rekindled. 'He is weak.'

If Moe actually had the kind of power that you claim, give me one good reason why he wouldn't have been able to use it to assume control himself. Sure there'd be a lot of opposition by the other Schools and nations, but the course of the Holy War gives us ample evidence that the Kianene Empire is nearly as strong as the rest of the Three Seas combined. If Moe had such enormous power, he would surely have been able to use his Dunyain abilities and magical strength to forge alliances and really wreak havoc.

Explain that, if you don't mind. WHY would such a powerful and apparently all-seeing Moe need Kellhus, unless he had somehow crippled himself.

"But even this wasn't enough," the lips continued. "Those without authority lost nothing by inserting you between them and their Gods, for they already yielded their actions to others. Servitude is the most instinctive of habits. But those with authority ... To rule in the name of an absent king is to rule outright. Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable ..."

Moënghus stood, pale, indistinct, like a vapour exhaled by the earth. He stepped beneath the spouting eyes. For a moment water sluiced about his figure, then he was clear, dripping, standing eye to socket with his son, naked save for his sodden loincloth.

Pubic curls darkened the linen. Steam coiled about his beaded skin.

"This," the eyeless face said, "was where the Probability Trance failed me ..."

"So you did not anticipate the visions?" Kellhus asked.

His father's face remained absolute and impassive.

"What visions?"

[lokisnow]

I wonder if the Zeumi are in contact with to Ishteribinth?