"Ethnic studies" banned in AZ

[Mad Monkey]

Are you saying Darwin, Einstien, and Sir Issac Newton are like Hitler?

Hitler's V-1 and V-2 rockets do not even begin to compare to the destructive power of Eistein's atomic weaponry. Darwin's fanatical "evolutionary" ideologies led to the eugenics movement that hung over much of so-called Enlightened World like a curse. And we all know how Isaac Newton's most famous anecdote led to the mass-slaughter of thousands of apples by vain copycats seeking to make a name for themselves.

Seriously, it's not their job to develop education programs, but even the governor and legislators could stump and push for the necessity of a plan B.

That's because this isn't an important issue to them personally. Sure, they're willing to decry political indoctrination in the public schools, but they're not willing to do anything to actually make the education system as a whole better. As long as it's not ghastly (and even then, as long as it's not in a ghastly way that offends them personally) then they could care less what happens. It's not even racism; it's just apathy.

[BloodRider]

You know who else had an attachment to "the truth?"

Such utter bullshit. There is critical thinking and a willing to adjust opinions based on new discoveries. And this may not lead us to an absolute truth but it does get us closer than starting with your conclusions and making shit up to support your pseudotruth.

If you can't see the difference, well then that makes you about as intellectually honest and educated in the basics of reasoning as 90% of the conservatives I know. So I guess its no real surprise.

Man - it makes me really sad to see this non-thinking spread to Oz. I guess Murdoch and 'The Australian' got his mind fuck down under as well.

[TrueMetis]

Hitler's V-1 and V-2 rockets do not even begin to compare to the destructive power of Eistein's atomic weaponry. Darwin's fanatical "evolutionary" ideologies led to the eugenics movement that hung over much of so-called Enlightened World like a curse. And we all know how Isaac Newton's most famous anecdote led to the mass-slaughter of thousands of apples by vain copycats seeking to make a name for themselves.

:lol: Ah yes I had forgotten.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

:lol: It doesn't have to be. If you want to give Horne the benefit of the doubt on that one, feel free.

I'm not. But it is not inappropriate politics to stop the other side for engaging in political indoctrination in schools. And Horne isn't hiding anything on this -- he's been very upfront about it all along, including the part about the speech calling all Republicans evil.

That's a convenient way of dismissing other people's superior experience and research, and without offering anything of substance yourself. Boo. :)

Anna, they control the data, and it is impossible to verify what they're saying. And absent affirmative controls over things such as self-selection -- which they don't mention -- it would be wrong to draw any conclusions regarding causation from a simple correlation. Just to make the point, I'd guess that if you took a survey among the kids enrolled in their physics course, you'd probably see a higher rate of college attendance than among kids as a whole as well.

That is not the law that was passed however, which he championed. Perhaps the only legal way to get at the Mexican studies program was to include the others, as well.

But there's no indication he thinks those other programs violate the mandate.

So ethnic studies = political (liberal) indoctrination. Is that correct?

No. The idea that this course simply exposes students to famous latinos, etc., is bogus. Are you familiar with the whole "critical studies" movement in the U.S.? If not, it is not just "critical thinking" in general. It is a very specific political/philosophical movement based on Marxist principles of adversarial class struggle. This stuff is highly controversial even in colleges. At its core, it advocates an antagonistic, adversarial approach to dissenters. It is inherently, and aggressively, political. So when Horne calls out a program that is avowedly based on Critical Race Theory for promoting those views he's almost definitionally correct.

The state superintendent for one. He pushed a law affecting education statewide, but now addressing the same issue is below his pay-grade? His supporters for another - he obviously has them. Seriously, it's not their job to develop education programs, but even the governor and legislators could stump and push for the necessity of a plan B.

But the law doesn't bar ethnic studies programs. It simply bars certain types of ethnic studies programs, and the local districts remain free to either modify current programs or adopt new ones, just as it was their decision to adopt this program in the first place.

Well hey, you never seem to want to discuss whether pushing a religious agenda in public schools is appropriate

I didnt realize I was avoiding that, but okay, I don't think it is.

and IIRC you have little to say on stuff like civil rights creating unrealistic expectations of equal outcomes, so it would seem we all have our hedge points. ;)

I'd be willing to discuss that but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "civil rights creating unrealistic expectations of equal outcomes". If I were to guess at what you mean, I don't think civil rights laws will necessarily create equal outcomes.

But since you asked, I'll pony up on occupied Mexico .. I'd want to hear more because they have emphatically denied it and because as others have mentioned, it is a matter of history that the U.S. conquered that land.

I have no problem teaching that the U.S. conquered that land. I learned that in school myself. Nobody is saying that shouldn't be taught.

Did the program go further and imply the US doesn't want them as citizens, plug overthrowing the US government & taking Mexican land back? Or is it part of a discussion re: different voices on that topic? I really don't know.

All I can say is that you may want to read up a bit on Critical Race Theory, and maybe look up the cited textbooks and authors. It is a lot more than just asking questions about the traditional view of history. On the other hand, if you're already familiar with it, then we just have very different views on what is appropriate curricula at the high school level.

[Galactus]

Well, in a technical sense, I suppose that's right. Removing inappropriate political indoctrination from schools is, by definition "about" politics. Although the removal of such indoctrination doesn't have to be politically motivated.

I'm just curious, in what way could it NOT be politically motivated? I'm seriously stumped for any scenario in which it wouldn't be.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I'm just curious, in what way could it NOT be politically motivated? I'm seriously stumped for any scenario in which it wouldn't be.

If a course was teaching that all Democrats are evil, I would support banning that portion of the class even though I agree with it politically. :)

[The Progressive]

Wasn't the comment about Republicans made by a guest speaker at a school assembly and not an approved part of the course curriculum?

But it is not inappropriate politics to stop the other side for engaging in political indoctrination in schools

To legislature censorship against historical discourse is anything but "approriate" politics. Lol, this argument is about as convincing as your insistence that Rove did not orchestrate any foul play against McCain because, hey, Rove said so himself in his memoir.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Wasn't the comment about Republicans made by a guest speaker at a school assembly and not an approved part of the course curriculum?

Yup. Invited by the faculty of that department.

To legislature censorship against historical discourse is anything but "approriate" politics.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in that sentence.

As I said, I think folks should check out the program's own website, look at the stuff on it, google some of the terms like Critical Race Theory, and decide for themselves whether the program is just a celebration of ethnicity or something else. I'm quite familiar with Critical Legal Studies theory, which really gave birth to the other "Crit" theories. Obviously, opinions differ on how appropriate it is to teach that stuff at the high school level.

By the way, the student extracurricular activity sponsored by the program is M.E.Ch.A. Here's the preamble to the M.E.Ch.A Constitution:

Preamble

Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlan must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlan.

http://www.pc.maricopa.edu/studentlife/clubs/mecha/constitution.htm

Oh yeah, and here's a description of M.E.Ch.A's symbol:

The official symbol of this organization shall be the eagle with its wings spread, bearing a macahuittle in one claw and a dynamite stick in the other with the lighted fuse in its beak. The acronym MEChA shall be above the symbol with the phrase "La Union Hace La Fuerza" below.

[The Progressive]

Yup. Invited by the faculty of that department.

So? Ann Coulter and the President of Iran have been invited to speak at universities. That does not meant that the faculties/administrators of those facilities are endorsind wholly what the speakers said. But I'm glad that you've conceded that the statement about Republicans was not part of official course curriculum.

As I said, I think folks should check out the program's own website, look at the stuff on it, google some of the terms like Critical Race Theory, and decide for themselves whether the program is just a celebration of ethnicity or something else. I'm quite familiar with Critical Legal Studies theory, which really gave birth to the other "Crit" theories. Obviously, opinions differ on how appropriate it is to teach that stuff at the high school level.

It's no more pernicious than the Christian fundamentalism and Imperialistic apologism drivel being taught in most Texas school districts.

By the way, the student extracurricular activity sponsored by the program is M.E.Ch.A. Here's the preamble to the M.E.Ch.A Constitution:

Preamble

Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlan must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlan.

http://www.pc.maricopa.edu/studentlife/clubs/mecha/constitution.htm

Oh yeah, and here's a description of M.E.Ch.A's symbol:

The official symbol of this organization shall be the eagle with its wings spread, bearing a macahuittle in one claw and a dynamite stick in the other with the lighted fuse in its beak. The acronym MEChA shall be above the symbol with the phrase "La Union Hace La Fuerza" below.

MECHA is about as harmful as the Boy Scouts, officials sponsor of numerous extracurricular activities nationwide.

[timmet]

Evan Mecham suggests: Arizona Baked Hyena Tripe. Nothing tastes better after a hard day's hatin' on the mud people.

(Many thanks to Frank Discussion of the Feederz for being really, really sick and wonderful. I mean, ya gotta go some ways to make the Meat Puppets look mainstream.)

[lokisnow]

a fourth generation american friend of latino descent who works in a library in arizona was told this by a patron trying to get a library card today: "why should I have to prove I live in the county when you probably don't have any papers to be in America!"

for those unfamiliar with US public libraries the usual procedure to get a free library card is to bring a few pieces of opened mail with your name and address on them to establish that you live within the boundaries the library serves.

[Emo Targaryen]

Obviously, opinions differ on how appropriate it is to teach that stuff at the high school level.

Well, it's like with the theory of evolution: if such theories are prevalent in the academic field, a high school attempting to prepare its students for an academic career cannot abstain from telling students about these theories just because they don't fit into the worldview of some politicians. However, before touching such controversial subjects, students should first be taught the basics of scientific work - namely reliance on empiricism and abstaining from deriving "truth" from ideology, so students can themselves judge the value of the theories which will be presented to them.

However, I don't like the idea of having classes devoted entirely to such theories as optional subjects. Just as I wouldn't like the idea of high school students being able to choose between "creationist biology class" and "evolutionist biology class". If they go to college, they're free to choose their own academic path. But school, in my eyes, should have an integrative function: To provide people from all races and classes with a common ground for communication. So subjects like history and sociology as well as biology should be taught the same way to everyone. Yes, this means teaching students about the history of slavery and racism. It can also mean teaching them about the importance of Critical Racial Studies to modern sociology. But it would mean teaching this to everyone and not allowing students to segregate themselves into racially separate optional subjects.

Preamble

Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlan must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlan.

Well, even if they don't actually do anything more harmful than boyscouts, reading this preamble doesn't make me, not identifying myself as "Chicano", exactly feel welcome in this extracurricular activity.

@lockesnow: Perhaps before teaching "racial empowering", schools should first start teaching "basic social skills and etiquette"...

[DanteGabriel]

@lockesnow: Perhaps before teaching "racial empowering", schools should first start teaching "basic social skills and etiquette"...

Nah, the right wing hate brigades will just protest at the schools' trampling on their freedom to teach their kids to be selfish hatemongering pantloads.

[Annelise]

I'm not. But it is not inappropriate politics to stop the other side for engaging in political indoctrination in schools.

I don't know if that's what was going on but as I mentioned previously, I don't want *anyone* teaching public school kids to be good little Democrats or Republicans.

Anna, they control the data, and it is impossible to verify what they're saying.

Okay, your repeated dismissals and refusal to allow that it's even possible the approach could have academic value leaves me at an impasse. I'm not going to keep hunting this snipe.

But there's no indication he thinks those other programs violate the mandate.

I'm not sure how they wouldn't violate the law since they're aimed at one particular ethnic group. I mean, if that's true, why was there a need for an amendment exempting Native Americans from the law because of federal protections?

I'd be willing to discuss that but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "civil rights creating unrealistic expectations of equal outcomes".

It's from a Texas school board amendment from this year proposing its inclusion in their new history textbook. Now.. given my dim view of the Texas Board of Education lately, I'm probably as willing to assume that's harmless as you are willing to assume the Mexican studies program is harmless. But I will grant it's possible.

All I can say is that you may want to read up a bit on Critical Race Theory, and maybe look up the cited textbooks and authors. It is a lot more than just asking questions about the traditional view of history. On the other hand, if you're already familiar with it, then we just have very different views on what is appropriate curricula at the high school level.

I can't say, because I haven't heard how these things are used and approached in the program. For instance, parts of the Bible were on our my public high school required reading list and it was perfectly appropriate (IMO). That said, I'm sure there's also instances that I would hit the roof over. Depends, you know?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I don't know if that's what was going on but as I mentioned previously, I don't want *anyone* teaching public school kids to be good little Democrats or Republicans.

Neither do I.

Okay, your repeated dismissals and refusal to allow that it's even possible the approach could have academic value leaves me at an impasse.

Of course its possible. It just hasn't been proven.

I can't say, because I haven't heard how these things are used and approached in the program. For instance, parts of the Bible were on our my public high school required reading list and it was perfectly appropriate (IMO). That said, I'm sure there's also instances that I would hit the roof over. Depends, you know?

I understand that point, but an explicit adoption of Latino Racial Pedagogy and Critical Race Theory don't leave much wiggle room as they are well-defined, specific terms. To me, that is more than enough objective verification of the various teacher complaints about the program, especially given the content of some of the textbooks they admittedly use.

For me, the political component makes the course inappropriate, even if there is an academic benefit.

[TerraPrime]

For me, the political component makes the course inappropriate, even if there is an academic benefit.

You mean, I think, that you disagree with the political component of the ethnic study program, not that any political component in a class is sufficient ground to dismiss the curriculum, no?

[Commodore]

If only it were possible to have different curricula to choose from, based on personal parental preference.

Nah, that's not realistic, curricula must be uniform.

School choice lol, get real.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

You mean, I think, that you disagree with the political component of the ethnic study program, not that any political component in a class is sufficient ground to dismiss the curriculum, no?

I object to political indoctrination of any kind in public schools. But obviously, some is worse and more extreme than others. There presumably is a certain amount of politics just in choosing the facts to be presented, and that is unavoidable to some extent. But when it goes beyond presenting facts, and starts arguing how those facts should be interpeted, that's a bigger problem. And it's even worse if the interpetation is one that encourages active disloyalty to the country in favor of allegience to either another nation or ethnicity.

[Alexia]

I don't follow what qualifies teaching about Hispanic history as being political indoctrination. Is teaching about the civil rights movement political indoctrination too? 'Cause all my teachers gave their spin on how the facts should be interpreted for that when I was in school. Same for when we studied the Holocaust.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I don't follow what qualifies teaching about Hispanic history as being political indoctrination.

Based on what I saw on their website, they don't just teach about hispanic history.