If the United States were to collapse

[Guardian of the North]

To be frank, I'd be more worried about the Utah Mormons than the Arizona Tea Party types.

And what are you worried about from Utah Mormons? I object strongly to such a generally stated bigoted remark. Many people would fly off the handle if instead of Utah Mormon you had said New York Jews in such a general statment.

FYI Leaders of the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) have always supported the rule of law including basic human rights (study up why the Mormons ended up in Utah) In fact recently, they have urged lawmakers to be "compassionate" in considering changes to immigration laws.

Technically yes you could say Mormons aren't fans of illegal immigrants because they don't condone illegally living in another country but at the same time they aren't looking to treat them like sub-class humans.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And what are you worried about from Utah Mormons? I object strongly to such a generally stated bigoted remark. Many people would fly off the handle if instead of Utah Mormon you had said New York Jews in such a general statment.

I've got a couple of Mormon friends, and perhaps because of things they've pointed out to me, it is amazing to see the amount of religious bigotry that exists towards Mormons. You're exactly right -- replace "mormons" with "jews' or even "moslems", and you'd hear cries of outrage. But making fun of those nutty Mormons is just so much trendier, isn't it?

I've never quite understood the antipathy toward them.

[The Progressive]

That's because unlike the Mormon Church, the various Jewish and Muslims religious organizations in this country didn't spent a ridiculous amount of money in a concerted effort to deny TP and his partner various civil rights enjoyed by heterosexuals.

[jurble]

And what are you worried about from Utah Mormons? I object strongly to such a generally stated bigoted remark. Many people would fly off the handle if instead of Utah Mormon you had said New York Jews in such a general statment.

Well, Mormons have the numerical advantage in Utah, and if the Federal gov. just ceased to exist, their organizational advantage means that they'd be easily poised to turn the state into a theocracy within months. Most people don't like theocracies. Jews and Muslims couldn't create a theocracy anywhere in America so easily.

[Celtigo]

And what are you worried about from Utah Mormons? I object strongly to such a generally stated bigoted remark. Many people would fly off the handle if instead of Utah Mormon you had said New York Jews in such a general statment.

FYI Leaders of the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) have always supported the rule of law including basic human rights (study up why the Mormons ended up in Utah) In fact recently, they have urged lawmakers to be "compassionate" in considering changes to immigration laws.

Technically yes you could say Mormons aren't fans of illegal immigrants because they don't condone illegally living in another country but at the same time they aren't looking to treat them like sub-class humans.

Not that I'm on board with condemning the whole religion, but "Jew" is tied with ethnicity as well as religion. The comparison leaves a lot to be desired.

[Smashing Young Man]

That's because unlike the Mormon Church, the various Jewish and Muslims religious organizations in this country didn't spent a ridiculous amount of money in a concerted effort to deny TP and his partner various civil rights enjoyed by heterosexuals.

TP can't marry a woman?

[Trebla]

TP can't marry a woman?

I dunno, can you take the white hood off? :D

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

And what are you worried about from Utah Mormons?

Is this a joke? He's homosexual. What do you think he's worried about?

[Smashing Young Man]

I dunno, can you take the white hood off? :D

Now why would I go and do that?

Seriously, though, this is one of those things I really don't care about. Two guys can marry if they like, it's no skin off my teeth. I just don't see it as a civil rights—and thus federal—issue.

[AndyP]

I bring you James Burke

[Datepalm]

I think its more important, for the purpose of this conversation at least, that Mormoms to th best of my knowledge are mostly centrally organized. I'm aware theres break off groups and such, but most mormons belong to the mormon church, no? A church with a leadership, a heirarchy, a beauracracy, newsletter, money, property, etc. The point is that the Mormon church is an organization, a really big one, which "Muslims" or "Jews" simply aren't.

[Nymeria Sand]

While this is not invalid, I think you are underestimating the importance of the Southwestern states´ hispanic populations, which represents exactly the type of cultural divide which you are talking about for the USSR. I could easily see the southwest being the boilingpoint for post collapse tensions. What would happen, for example, if a newly independant Arizona started rounding up latinos? Would California or Mexico tolerate the existance of an apartied state on their boarders? What if Mexico invaded Arizona under the pretext of protecting the livlihood of its citizens? Would the former US states unite in solidarity? Or would the resulting arms race entrench the power of new state institutions?

Speaking only for myself, I'd say that if Mexico wants Arizona, it can have it.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Is this a joke? He's homosexual. What do you think he's worried about?

There are plenty of other states that passed laws/amendments against gay marriage. Why focus just on the Mormons? And I've never heard of them otherwise advocating for punishing gays legally, which simply makes Utah one of the vast majority of states that don't recognize gay marriages.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think its more important, for the purpose of this conversation at least, that Mormoms to th best of my knowledge are mostly centrally organized. I'm aware theres break off groups and such, but most mormons belong to the mormon church, no? A church with a leadership, a heirarchy, a beauracracy, newsletter, money, property, etc. The point is that the Mormon church is an organization, a really big one, which "Muslims" or "Jews" simply aren't.

Let me know the next time Mormons fly planes loaded with passengers into buildings. Do you people realize that Harry Reid, the liberal Senate Majority leader, is himself a Mormon? How does that fit the stereotype of all "those people" thinking alike?

[Guest Raidne]

That's because unlike the Mormon Church, the various Jewish and Muslims religious organizations in this country didn't spent a ridiculous amount of money in a concerted effort to deny TP and his partner various civil rights enjoyed by heterosexuals.

Exactly. I'm sorry - if you want to be treated like a religion with all the attendant deference and respect, then act like one. If you, instead, are going to act like a political organization, then I'll treat you the same way I'd treat any other political organization.

So, yeah, I don't have any problem saying, wow, the Mormon Church is a particularly worrisome bigoted segment of the Republican party.

I'll wait for the Courts to sort out your 501©(3) status. By the way, if anyone would like to send the IRS an official complaint about the LDS's activities that violate the statutory requirements of section 501©(3), there are instructions here.

And, no, really, the point is that the Mormon Church participated in an organized political campaign to promote Proposition 8. There's a lot of information on it on the site I linked also, although I'm sure there are better sources of information, most of which are linked in past threads on this topic.

[Guy Kilmore]

Brude, I have lived all over the country and I think alot of your analysis is spot on, but I have to object to comparissons of the Midwest to the Deep South. The heart of the midwest is very different as compared to the heart of the south. Weather alone affects both groups different culturally. (I have lived in the midwest for about 20 years and I have family, including a sister, in those southern states.)

I guess lumping the Midwest and the South together, would be like me Lumping together New York City and LA as being the same because they are big cities on the coast.

[The Progressive]

Two guys can marry if they like, it's no skin off my teeth. I just don't see it as a civil rights—and thus federal—issue.

I don't think you understand that "civil rights" entails a host of rights concerning legal and economic issues that affect the lives of gay couples.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Speaking only for myself, I'd say that if Mexico wants Arizona, it can have it.

They can have the southern half. I claim everything north of the Mogollon Rim as my personal fiefdom.

RE: Mormons. For anyone to say they don't get it means they apparently don't know anything about it. The state government of Utah is essentially the enforcement wing of the LDS Church. Look at the state's bizzaro-world alcohol laws (seriously guys, it's the 21st century, get the fuck over it already) for just one example.

[Brude]

The key factor isn't even so much the local culture as the deliberateness of these people. They would frame the collapse of America as god giving them the opportunity to remake the country as a Christian nation.

Most mainstream and liberal Christians would not belong to the same movement - I would expect that they would remain part of their local organizations and work with a diverse group of people to rebuild local stability.

I agree with these statements completely.

I don't doubt that Bible belt states would become much more religiously intolerant, but those who came out on top would be power-hungry compromisers and not Bob Jones IV.

I think you could be right - but it would be couched in the exact same sort of rhetoric. I can envision a lot of in-fighting happening among the various leaders who would try to come out on top of something like this - you'd have major Evangelical preachers vs. each other, vs. political leaders, etc. Eventually, you could have a particular group coming out on top - or you could have multiple factions taking power in various states or regions and have a patchwork of smaller theocratic states in the South rather than one monolithic successor state.

I agree with this. The initial movements towards secession would come from state instutions - its only natural since all the nessisary infrastructure is already in place. And like all insitutions, local governments would first and foremost act to preserve themselves. Its unlikely state governments would give up power to regional organizations without some strong motivating factor.

The motivating factor would be mutual defense, economic mutual assistance and I think cultural ties would be strong enough to maintain regional unities. Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts seem to me to have little reason to go it alone from one another. Once you get a bloc like that, Vermont, Maine and (possibly) New Hampshire would see the advantage of also joining (New Hampshire has a secessionist movement even right now, so they may or may not want to join).

Different regions would have their organizing principles based on differing aspects of their lives. Most areas would stay with their state and local government institutions as the prime organizing principle. The South and Utah/Deseret would base theirs upon religion. Some would be a hybrid, possibly. Texas has it's own, pretty strange, ideas about itself as naturally being its own Republic that let itself be incorporated in the U.S. They are also very religious down there, so they'd organize around the political/cultural structure that is Texas, but religion would become integral to that structure in some way. I don't think it would ever be a theocracy, but they'd declare a state religion that may or may not be tolerant of others, or would be to varying degrees.

To be frank, I'd be more worried about the Utah Mormons than the Arizona Tea Party types.

Modern Mormons are not a violent sort, by and large. Oh, there were moments in the past that are pretty infamous, but now their overriding concern has to do with mass conversion, but there is no modern tradition at all in Mormonism of doing this through violence, none that I know of. They'd be very pleased to have their own Mormon state set up and in all likelihood it would be run very well and efficiently.

Brude, I have lived all over the country and I think alot of your analysis is spot on, but I have to object to comparissons of the Midwest to the Deep South. The heart of the midwest is very different as compared to the heart of the south.

I don't think they are the same, but there are similarities. I do think people in the Midwest tend to be much more practical about things like their faith and I believe in my write-up I suggested they would go pretty differently, largely because of that. The Midwest would NOT be a theocracy, whereas I think religion is the overriding force that would shape the South. They may make Christianity an "official religion," but I don't think they'd give up on rights of others to worship as they please.

I guess lumping the Midwest and the South together, would be like me Lumping together New York City and LA as being the same because they are big cities on the coast.

I think New York and L.A. are far more alike to each other than is the South to the Midwest. I've lived in both LA and NYC (currently still here), and while there are differences, you quite literally have many of the same people living in both. There's a lot of people like me who came from one and went to the other (or like me, live in one, went to the other, then went back when they decided they didn't like it).

[TerraPrime]

Re: Guardian of the North

And what are you worried about from Utah Mormons?

I worry about the fate of the gay citizens that happen to be living in the domain of the new, now-independently operative Utah. Once freed of the U.S. Constitutional constraints, Utah is likely to develop into a Church-run state, like the old Tibet or the Taliban-era Afghanistan. I am also worried about the fate of the women in this new country, where their eternal salvation is contingent upon their husband's good will. Further, I am worried about the furthering of religious dogmatism in a country where all the branches of a government are going to be held by members of a Church. In almost all other states, there's a plurality of religion, split between different denominations of Protestanism and other forms of Christianity. In Utah, the religious landscape is far more homogenous.

I object strongly to such a generally stated bigoted remark. Many people would fly off the handle if instead of Utah Mormon you had said New York Jews in such a general statment.

"I would be more worried about Utah Mormons than Arizona Tea Party-ers" is a "bigoted" remark? What?

FYI Leaders of the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) have always supported the rule of law including basic human rights (study up why the Mormons ended up in Utah) In fact recently, they have urged lawmakers to be "compassionate" in considering changes to immigration laws.

So you'd dispute that in this thought exercise, where the U.S. federal government disintegrates, that Utah will not try to form it's own religion-run country?

Technically yes you could say Mormons aren't fans of illegal immigrants because they don't condone illegally living in another country but at the same time they aren't looking to treat them like sub-class humans.

No, their sub-class humans list is currently occupied by the gays. I think our lease for that spot is up in 2187, so talk to us then.

Re: FLoW

I've never quite understood the antipathy toward them.

I wouldn't imagine that you would. Few who are not gay, do.

Let me know the next time Mormons fly planes loaded with passengers into buildings. Do you people realize that Harry Reid, the liberal Senate Majority leader, is himself a Mormon? How does that fit the stereotype of all "those people" thinking alike?

Yes, and there was a family (NFL player? Forgot the detail) who're prominent Mormons and who came out criticizing the LDS' support of Prop8. What does that prove, exactly?

It's a bit comical, actually, that you use "flying planes into buildings" as a retort in the same breath as you castigate others for classifying all Mormons as "those people."

Modern Mormons are not a violent sort, by and large. Oh, there were moments in the past that are pretty infamous, but now their overriding concern has to do with mass conversion, but there is no modern tradition at all in Mormonism of doing this through violence, none that I know of. They'd be very pleased to have their own Mormon state set up and in all likelihood it would be run very well and efficiently.

I didn't say I was worried about violence from the new Utah. My worry stems from seeing a country run as a theocracy, particularly when that the germane religion in question is one that's hostile to women's independence and to gay people. I fear dogmatism and theocratical governments more than I fear xenophobia/nativism backed by guns.