Who are the 10 best swordsmen in the series?

[ibby123]

Well when it comes down to it Ned and Howland somehow defeated the Sword of Morning. If Ned is an average swordsman and it was a relatively fair fight(ie, Arthur Dayne wasn't shot in the back), than Howland Reed has to be the deciding factor and certainly belongs on a list.

I think Ned was a bit above average he is a high lord and has been training for a long time i think most lords and high born lads should be above average look at jon snow , robb and loras tyrell anyways he fought in a lot of battles he must be kinda good. I think Arthur dayne would have killed one on one but howland reed and ned could have overpowered him. And didn't ser baristan once say that he saw ned cut down a dozen good knight or was that only in the tv show

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Mance was fighting with a two-handed long sword, which is a lot heavier than the sword Jon was fighting with. So if Jon was having trouble with his "speed" then thats a pretty big indictment of Jon's ability. And again, as I've said before, Jon fighting with a better sword doesn't make him a better swordsman, so you can't use that argument. And as your third point, even if Jon had come out on top, and "won" the fight, that doesn't make him a better swordsman. Just means he's a smart fighter. And anyway, he didn't come out on top because he doesn't have the size or strength to fight men like Mance.

I hate to contradict someone who is on my side of the Jon argument, but Jon does say in the first book he's a better sword than Robb. A biased opinion, but still. I think Jon is probablly far superior to the average swordsman, just no way he's top ten in westoros. Top ten is pretty damn elite company. Knowing how much luck is involved in a fight I think any fight between two top ten fighters would essentially be a coin-toss. Does anyone really think Jon would stand a chance against Sandor Clegane?

i think you are referring to his dialogue with Benjen; i believe he says Robb is better fighter being stronger and larger and he (Jon) is a better jouster. In addition he mentioned Ser Rodrik praising his riding skills and comparing him to Rhaegar.

[Black Walder]

#1: I've got to hand this one to Black Walder Frey. I am, after all, a man of the sword. ;)

Massive Nitpick: With regard to everybody who mentioned Balon Swann and his morningstar: Swann is a noted tourney knight, particularly accomplished with the lance and coming in 2nd or 3rd at archery in the Tourney of the Hand, but when we see him in a real fight he's using a mace, not a morningstar. Tyrion notes in his Blackwater chapter that Swann uses his mace (described with bits of brain and bone stuck to the end, which I've always loved) to point to the men who are crossing the river on the bridge of wrecked ships, which wouldn't really work with the business end of a morningstar.

[Ghost Rider]

i think you are referring to his dialogue with Benjen; i believe he says Robb is better fighter being stronger and larger and he (Jon) is a better jouster. In addition he mentioned Ser Rodrik praising his riding skills and comparing him to Rhaegar.

You might consider rereading. Jon said in his dialogue with Benjen that Robb was the stronger lance, he the better sword and riding a horse as well as anyone in the castle. I also think we can trust his judgement there as he was fighting Robb every day probably.

Why do you think that Robb was larger and stronger? They both weren't very tall at age 14 (both smaller than 12 year old Jofferey), Robb had the brawnier build (Bran I) and maybe that couldn't mean stronger, but it's not sure.

Anyway they were both in their fast-growing phase and we can assume that a few years later they were both taller and stronger. Robb of course died before he reached his peak, Jon probably still isn't in his prime even though he seems to be tallish at 17 (compare to the Braavosi banker in ADWD who is described as freakishly tall and Jon being half a foot smaller)

[SerArthurHeath]

Given how much fights rely on individual form and circumstances and chance, it's pretty hard to specifically rank characters.

However we can create a list of contenders with reasons.

Jaime- he is sure he can beat both Cleganes. Without a sword hand, the rest of the KG are scared to face him because of how good he used to be. He matched the smiling knight when he was 15. You don't get his reputation for being a rash, reactionary killing machine unless you provide some evidence. And finally Baristan says that another character is the best natural swordsman since Jaime which implies that Jaime is the best sword he has seen still living.

Ser Barristan- he is old but still kills the Titan's Bastard with a stick and shows some more skill in aDwD.

Sandor- once again, when people are this scared of facing you, it's for a reason. Plus he goes toe to toe with Gregor. And he kills Beric who was using a firesword.

Gregor- enough said

Strong Belwas- that's a lot of pit fight victories and he dominates the knight he faces at Meeren.

Khal Drogo- a different form of combat, but once again the number of braids he has speak for themselves.

Syrio- given what he can do with a wooden sword against multiple foes, I don't see how this is arguable

Mance- Jon has improved from the man who beat Qhorin in unfair circumstances. He cruises to a 1 on 3 victory against NW recruits. Then Mance owns him. He also defeated enough wilding leaders to become King Over the Wall.

Garlan- supposedly the best sword in the Reach and a hero on the BW

With other weapons, we should probably consider the Red Viper and Victarion too

[SerArthurHeath]

I think Ned was a bit above average he is a high lord and has been training for a long time i think most lords and high born lads should be above average look at jon snow , robb and loras tyrell anyways he fought in a lot of battles he must be kinda good. I think Arthur dayne would have killed one on one but howland reed and ned could have overpowered him. And didn't ser baristan once say that he saw ned cut down a dozen good knight or was that only in the tv show

That was just the tv show where Ned's swordsmanship seems to have been boosted so that Sean Bean's fans would feel better before he got killed. It led to the character-arc derailing stalemate between Jaime and Ned

[mikethegrouch]

Though I'm sure Ned is a good swordsman, Sansa mentions Bronze Yohn beating him to the ground.

[CrypticWeirwood]

That was just the tv show where Ned's swordsmanship seems to have been boosted so that Sean Bean's fans would feel better before he got killed. It led to the character-arc derailing stalemate between Jaime and Ned

What is “the character-arc derailing stalemate” here? Sorry if I’m being slow.

[SerArthurHeath]

What is “the character-arc derailing stalemate” here? Sorry if I’m being slow.

I'm mostly overreacting, but Jaime's character arc revolves around his loss of sword hand because he was so good. In the books we have his PoV and a lot of slow build up and comments and thoughts if other characters to let us know this. This is not possible in the TV series. In terms if actual combat left in the show before he loses his hand, in the books he has only his attempted escape and his fight where he loses to Brienne. In the book, both Brienne and Jaime's PoV help explain that the fight was close, that Jaime was very much impeded by his fetters and that he was out if practice and malnourished. This cannot be obvious on the show, as it is on a visual medium where information cannot easily be divulged rather than shown. So we will just see Jaime lose to a girl, whose actress is not particularly manly.

Now if the created scene where Jaime fights Ned were to be used to some character building purpose, like to show that Jaime is actually a top swordsman not a wimp, it Would have been good. As it is, Every non reader I have spoken to about it or seen discussing it on TVWOP or YouTube is sure that Ned would have won that fight. The chance to see Jaime cut through Robb's host at WW like he did in the book is also omitted.

So not only are there no grounds laid for exactly how much the maiming will alter Jaime's approach and outlook, but the opposite actually applies. Jaime gets beaten by an old man, captured by his teenage son and beaten by a girl with only one likely scene against what I believe one would call "mooks" to possibly balance this. In the books this would be fine due to the background and PoV thoughts we have available. Even though in the books Jaime still comes out better as he doesn't get outfought by Ned and he nearly wins back the WW by cutting his way to Robb. In the show we do not have this so I personally would wonder why Jaime is getting so cut up about no longer being a knight as all he seems to do is screw his sister and get his arse kicked

[SerArthurHeath]

Though I'm sure Ned is a good swordsman, Sansa mentions Bronze Yohn beating him to the ground.

Him and see Rodrik at the same time iirc

[mikethegrouch]

Him and see Rodrik at the same time iirc

Makes you wonder how good some of the less talked about characters actually are.

[Bourne]

I'm mostly overreacting, but Jaime's character arc revolves around his loss of sword hand because he was so good. In the books we have his PoV and a lot of slow build up and comments and thoughts if other characters to let us know this. This is not possible in the TV series. In terms if actual combat left in the show before he loses his hand, in the books he has only his attempted escape and his fight where he loses to Brienne. In the book, both Brienne and Jaime's PoV help explain that the fight was close, that Jaime was very much impeded by his fetters and that he was out if practice and malnourished. This cannot be obvious on the show, as it is on a visual medium where information cannot easily be divulged rather than shown. So we will just see Jaime lose to a girl, whose actress is not particularly manly.

I kinda agree with you, I didn't like that change to the show. But I am a huge Jaime fan so I'm kinda biased. But Coster-Waldu said that Jaime will have more scenes in the second season than he did in the book. So i would bet a lot they put his attempted escape into the show and we get to see some pretty bad-ass Jaime stuff.

[dayne curious]

1. Syrio Forel, first sword of Braavos: king of speed, and it takes absolute consummate sword skill AND smarts to kill multiple armored foes with a wooden blade, which we observed firsthand. “Water-dancing” (aka sword-fighting) was Syrio’s LIFE. IMO, Syrio could have defeated Barristan, Jaime, Sandor or Gregor Clegane. Dominates his domain against the Kingsguard (we still don’t know whether Ser Meryn Trant beat him, and we know GRRM better than to trust him re any off-camera “alleged” deaths.)

2. Barristan the Bold: likewise amazing speed and skill with a wooden stick, which we observed firsthand, plus even Jaime with two hands says he would have hesitated to go up against Selmy; takes skill, speed AND fighting smarts to survive to that age. Likewise, sword-fighting was Barristan’s LIFE. IMO, could have defeated Jaime, Sandor and Gregor. (But, MARGINALLY, I believe that Syrio would have got Barristan). Selmy dominates his domain while in King’s Landing.

3. Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer (two hands); basis: his performance against Brienne, which we observed while Jaime was weakened and enchained. Likewise, sword-fighting was pretty much Jaime’s life (except for screwing Cersei). Dominates his domain in the absence of Selmy. IMO, Jaime could have defeated Gregor, but I think either Syrio or Barristan would probably have gotten the better of him (smarts).

4. Sandor Clegane: brute strength and size, killed Polliver while drunk & would have killed Tickler, performance against his brother Gregor in defense of Loras at the Tourney (knew his brother’s every likely move and weaknesses). IMO, could have defeated Gregor, but Jaime, Barristan or Syrio would likely have defeated Sandor. Dominates his domain (after Selmy is gone); Sandor is the one Ned is most concerned about once Jaime’s out of town.

5. Mance Rayder: amazing strength, formidable against Jon (thrashed him, which we observed), plus dominated the Wildlings (we hear that he beat Magnar Thenn three times, killed two other wildling leaders: dominates his domain). IMO, was smart and deadly enough to have beaten Gregor, but it would be a very close-fought issue between Mance and Sandor (maybe I should rate them as 4^th-equal, but I am giving Sandor the edge (just) since we have observed more of his ability firsthand than Mance’s) … Believe that Syrio, Barristan and Jaime would likely have eventually beaten Mance.

6. Gregor Clegane: sickening strength, size, brute force and reach; just plain hard to kill; we observed the way he went after Loras (at Tourney), Sandor (at Tourney) & Oberyn (in Tyrion’s trial by combat). Like an earlier poster I used Gregor as a litmus test for the other swordsmen, plus I used the question of which of these swordfighters dominates their respective domains, plus and IMPORTANTLY I rated what we have observed firsthand in the books more highly than what we have merely heard by reputation.

7. Quorin Halfhand: massive skill against Jon, which we observed (Jon only beat him because of Ghost & Halfhand was holding back); even Mance feared to go up against Halfhand. It’s tough to say but maybe Gregor would have beat Quorin if Jon/Ghost could do so.

8. Bronn: fought Catelyn’s party’s way through the high road to the Vale, which we observed; they would not have made it without him; speed, skill, deadliness; easily beat the guy (Ser Varis Egen?) in the Vale for Tyrion’s trial by combat; rated himself even against Gregor but it wasn’t worth it to him after his knighthood/lordship, which suggests too much doubt / lack of motivation to beat Gregor.

9. Brienne, Maid of Tarth: proved herself time and time again: (1) to get into the Rainbow Guard as a woman (only by hearsay, we did not observe); against Jaime (weakened and enchained, but he could not believe how strong and well-trained she was, and we observed this firsthand); she kills Timeon, Shagwell, Pyg, and Rorge, major hardened fighters, all of which we observe firsthand, perhaps more big one-on-one (at minimum) kills than we observe anyone else making firsthand; plus she was making a go of it against the bear with a wooden sword and a dress (!) Even Ser Hyle has to change his opinion of her. No way Brienne can be left off anyone‘s top ten best swordfighter’s list based on what we have actually observed.

10. 10= Bronze Yohn & Garlan Tyrell: both reputed to train and fight successfully against multiple opponents, but we have not observed them firsthand, just by repute.

Note: Jaime with one (left) hand doesn’t make this list and I would probably have to go with one of: Blackfish / Jaqen / Beric / Thoros / Oberyn

Honorable mentions (in no particular order): Blackfish (Jaime says Blackfish would have given him a good run for his money back in the day; bet he still would have, but no actual observed fighting basis for rating Blackfish); Strong Belwas (arakh-like sword but no armor is a real downside in sword-fighting); Khal Drogo (arakh but no armor … likewise real downside); Loras Tyrell (better with a lance than a sword, but he did chop down a couple of traumatized & guilt-ridden Rainbow Guard in his blind rage at Renly’s death); Oberyn Martell (imagine he would be just as deadly with a sword, but no observed basis for rating him…); Arthur Dayne (the best, but dead at the outset of series so doesn’t qualify for this thread); Greatjon Umber (does he fight with a sword?); Beric (pretty good); Thoros (pretty good); Asha (next best swords-woman after Brienne, because Maege fights with an axe or morning-star?); Jaqen (would need to know more about his sword skill before I could rate him; clearly engenders fear, but not necessarily through sword skill, maybe more so through his Faceless Man skills); Jorah (pretty good); Jory (pretty good); Jon (pretty good, but not as good as Mance or Quorin); Ned (pretty damn good to go up against Arthur Dayne, but we don’t know the full story of that yet); Iron Emmett (good, but not as good as Jon when he is angry).

Btw, as posted some time ago in another thread, I happen to completely agree with Ran that it is almost inconceivable that Howland Reed used poison (or similar) in the fight at the Tower of Joy against Arthur Dayne.

[ARYa_Nym]

I still think that Arthur Dayne was the best. IMO losing to Ned and Howland doesn't mean much.

It was mentioned somewhere that Howland wasn't very good at sword-fighting but he had other skills. I think Howland beating him had nothing to do with swordmanship. He might of used a net or something. Either way he wasn't fighting fair but he didn't want to die so I don't blame him.

[Weasel_Soup]

As Barristan the Bold has pointed us there is no such thing as a peerless warrior. That being said I think Jaime Lannister(pre-injury), Barristan the Bold, and Syrio stand out among all of them. Jaime was the youngest ever named to the Kingsguard, opined he could have defeated Arthur Dayne in combat, fought valiant Brienne of Tarth to almost a standstill with his hands chained, and brutally cut his way throught a legion of foes to almost singlehandedly take out Robb Stark. Barristan the bolds deads are legion and he is still an amazing fighter at 63. Syrio is a form first blade of Bravos and can defeat your average warrior with a wooden sword.

[SerDigbyChickenCaesar]

Despite what Martin might have said, I find it very hard to believe that Ned would only have slightly above average sword skills. I mean, he doesn't lack for battle experience, and seems like the sort to fight alongside his men, rather than stand back and give orders from afar. I also doubt the northmen would respect him so much if he wasn't a notable fighter. We saw a bit of that with Robb. He didn't earn the Greatjon's support as a leader until he proved he had balls. And although Ned doesn't participate in tournaments, surely he would spend a lot of time training. To me, the Stark words "Winter is coming" mean that they're always going to be prepared. Surely he'd behave like Jon, and train often with his men to be ready for what's to come.

As far as the top ten go, it's a bit hard. The "best swordsman" doesn't necessarily mean the most likely to win, since armour is such a huge advantage. I think from what we've seen, the best swordsman and fighter is clearly Syrio. But like I said, that doesn't mean he's the most likely to win.

[bronnxtyrion]

Here goes my list

• Jaime Lannister - won a tourney melee at 13 (Robert, Sandor Clegane etc won as grownups) , knighted at 15, cut through Robb's guard and almost won that war (There are many instances in the books where a guy defeats several opponents i.e.Syrio,Brienne,Jon etc. But in all those cases the opponents were fodder. Here the opponents were the well trained elite of the north. All of them children of Lords trained from birth and confident enough to join Robb's guard and claim their position as one of the best in the north. Heck Theon even mentions almost fighting Jaime as one of his qualifications. Additionally Jaime wasn't even wearing a helm. ) ,Ser Barristan mentions someone as the most talented swordsman since Jaime. Jaime himself believes that he could defeat all the bigshot swardsman.
  
• Barristan Selmy - His achievements speak for themselves. Killed the targaryan pretender after cutting through enemy lines. Resued Aerys (well not swordsmanship exactly), Killed Simon Toyne.
  
• Syrio - He is different type of swordsman. Does not wear armour for the improved speed (also Bravoos is a port and fighting on ships might be common) and relies more on thrust attacks than cutting attacks. Even still taking out (I dont believe he killed them. Might have rendered them unconscious) semi -armoured fodder with wooden sword is an achievement.
  
• Garlan Tyrell - because he is better that Loras
  
• Loras - Killed the rest of the rainbow guard (I don't know if this counts. They were in a shock and also morally on the defensive under Loras's questioning to actually fight back in their full strength)
  
• Sandor clegane - fights against Gregor evenly. But is matched evenly by Beric Dondarrion (which is a minus point unless Dondarrion's abilities improved after death. On the plus side he was fighting despite his fear for fire.)
  
• Gregor Clegane - Well he is inhumanly strong although not much skilled with the sword.
  

I don't think anyone else has shown the elite skills. I understand Stark loyalists wanting atleast one Stark in the list. But I am yet to see Jon display any extraordinary feat. He just defeated 3 almost totally untrained boys. Oberyn Martell - people fear him for his poisons and not for his swordsmanship.

[DoomPancakes]

Where's Mance Rayder? He destroyed Jon Snow in practice with a greatsword, while Snow had his longsword and shield. Mance didn't get to the top of the wildlings by being soft either.

Mance, I would put him above Snow on every list that has him, and above Halfhands. I think he's the best swordsman of the North (not just beyond the Wall.)

[fassreiter]

Just so.

[tirhaka]

People might be giving victarion too much credit..the dude fights with uber thick plate mail..he's almost impregnable. Didnt he almost get schoole dby that young kid off the shield islands?? i need to re read..

all i;ms aying is consider him with the super mail he wears.