Brienne's last word

[iamthedave]

The story’s view is that honour is a horse.

Tywin died. Jon Snow and Dany have plot armour. So I don’t share your bleak view of the story’s logic.

That being said, yes, I agree that Brienne is going to die. During or right after her duel with Jaime. It’s what songs are made of, so it’s all she ever wanted. To give her life, loyally, in the service of somebody else, like a true knight. I don’t even find it very tragic. Brienne will be one of the few characters who will be complete when her arc is over.

Look at it this way: so far, she has been conflicted about love and honour. On one side she wants to be a knight. On the other, she falls in love with handsome men. They reject her. With Catelyn’s revelations about Jaime’s treachery (taking Riverrun, planning the Red Wedding with Roose Bolton over dinner at Harrenhal), her silly ideas of love are now finally quenched. She can go all-in: A knight is all she ever wanted to be, and it’s all she will be. Her final task will complete her.

I find that quite apt and satisfying.

Save that Brienne's arc has also clearly demonstrated to her that honour doesn't match the songs, and Jaime isn't the man she thought he was.

I don't find your arc satisfying or apt, I find it deeply depressing. It's someone going through yet more emotional trauma to the point they decide to commit virtual suicide rather than having the nerve to trust and believe that that trust has not been betrayed.

Moreover, it's someone being 'completed' by a lie, dying for a lie, and choosing a lie over what they know to be the truth.

It's the antithesis of who Brienne wants to be, not the perfection of it. Someone who has tried so hard to live honestly, embracing a lie and dying for it because it's easier to believe than the truth. That's the end of Brienne, and the saddest possible way for her to end.

[Happy Ent]

Moreover, it's someone being 'completed' by a lie, dying for a lie, and choosing a lie over what they know to be the truth.

You make it sound as if Jaime has not taken Riverrun, had Jory Cassel killed, or thrown Bran out of the window. You sound as if you actually know what Bolton and Jaime talked about at Harrenhal. (You don’t. Neither do I.)

Look, I’m anything but a moral relativist, but the question of Jaime’s character is very much a matter of perspective. I am completely aware that in his own eyes, he has changed. I was inside his head when it happened. Even Cersei thinks he‘s changed. That’s about it.

When we see the Tickler through Arya’s POV, he’s the vilest scum. In Jaime’s POV, he’s a dependable, sympathetic soldier. This is a point of GRRM’s writing. There is no authorial voice, or plot-kharma, that makes the decisions about who is Good and who is Wicked for us. It’s a matter of perspective. And even monsters like Jaime, naturally, view themselves as virtuous. Even when they hang some poor bastards who probably left their home and family to risk their life in the name of their lord.

I find it difficult to see how Jaime is not a valid target for Catelyn. That‘s the only information Brienne needs.

[Errant Bard]

You make it sound as if Jaime has not taken Riverrun, had Jory Cassel killed, or thrown Bran out of the window. You sound as if you actually know what Bolton and Jaime talked about at Harrenhal. (You don’t. Neither do I.)

To follow this, allow me to point that Jaime needs not to have done any of these things to be a valid target for Brienne. Indeed, he could be the best guy ever, not even having thrown Bran out of windows or helped the Red Wedding taking place, he would still be the Lannister general-in-chief, and one of the biggest influences over the kingdom in days to come, as kingsguard and family of a child king. He could be Arthur Dayne, he could be Ned Stark, it would not matter. just like Jaime tried to kill Robb specifically during the Whispering wood battle, it's justified to kill whoever, be it Ned Stark, Arthur Dayne, Lewyn Martell, Rhaegar targaryen or Jesus, lead the enemy armies.

Doubly so when you're not fighting in the open, but as a guerrilla resistance. Imagine WWII leaders capturing a former ally travelling alongside two SS*, and bearing documents with Rommel's signature, as well as one million in marks. Of course, they would not necessarily have sympathy for the guy if he told them Rommel has changed, but even so, it would not be incongruous for them to want to directly kill Rommel by using that guy.

* no, this is not a godwin: a godwin is comparing your interlocutor to Hitler or nazis, it's not bringing up a comparison between a fictional situation and WW2

[Happy Ent]

Also, here’s Jaime’s command to Strongboar just a few pages later:

Strongboar was the next to depart. He wanted to return to Darry as he'd promised and fight the outlaws. "We rode across half the bloody realm and for what? So you could make Edmure Tully piss his breeches? There's no song in that. I need a fight. I want the Hound. Jaime. Him. Or the marcher lord.'

"The Hound's head is yours if you can take it," Jaime said, "but Beric Dondarrion is to be captured alive, so he can be brought back to King's Landing. A thousand people need to see him die. or else he won't stay dead."

This is near-perfect symmetry to Catelyn’s command. Jaime wants Beric (and wants him, eventually, dead), not because he has any strong opinions about Beric’s character, because Beric lied, or was faithless, or anything like that. He want to kill the boss of the outlaws. The boss of the outlaws wants to kill him back. Neither does that kind of wetwork him/hereself. Strongboar and Brienne are merely paid killers, henchmen, a position that Westerosi society has glorified with moral constructions called honour and loyalty.

[Nukelavee]

uhh, that may not be a Godwin, but it is kinda goofy. Mostly because you combined Rommel and the SS. And Rommel did die (people wonder if it was for being suspected of being a traitor, i have no idea), but Rommel was one of a handful of german leaders whose signature was LEAST likely to earn you a firing squad...

Just saying.

Ent - I just think you dislike the shole concept of Brienne, and refuse to give her ANY credit, for anything. I never got the impression she's a silly girl after a prince charming...I've always read her a a person fully aware of what people see her as, and who has totally turned her back on the whole concept of "love", at least in teh terms, say, Sansa used to think of it. With Renly, she doesn't expect anything, she only wants to bask in his presence.

Her total confusion over the game the Summer knights play with her points out how alien that aspect of life is to her mindset.

Brienne may not be brilliant, but she isn't stupid - she's solid, and she's determined.

[iamthedave]

Strongboar and Brienne are merely paid killers, henchmen, a position that Westerosi society has glorified with moral constructions called honour and loyalty.

You do realize you just killed your own argument from two posts ago, right?

Since when did Brienne imagine herself to simply be a paid killer? Do you think she'd be anything other than outraged if someone accused her of being something so reprehensible?

[alguien]

Brienne would not consider being thrust in Jon's Mance assassination situation an honorable way to go out. The only way she would convincingly duel Jaime is if she was convinced he'd betrayed his attempt at regaining his honor. Personally, I think it would take more than just hearsay. She'd have to witness Jaime actually doing something she considered dishonorable.

Brienne, more than anyone, tries to find the MORAL thing to do. Now, she's being sent to kill Jaime, Pod is being kept as ransom. Instead of killing Jaime, I wouldn't be surprised if she actually enlisted his aid and betrayed Stoneheart to save Pod. This would be much more satisfying to me, because she would have actually become what she despised the Kingslayer for, a traitor. And, like him, she would be doing it for moral reasons.

A few other remarks:

Brienne's arc is similar to Dunk's, reconciling chivalry and morality with a brutal world. Only, her story is made even more complicated because she's a woman. She, perhaps more than any other character, has killed more "monsters" in these books. Along with doing that, saving children, she also learned that Arya Stark was still alive--something that not very many people know about. So I wouldn't be so quick to label her quest a complete failure, since she's done better than 99% of the continent.

Jaime has done some monstrous acts--but I don't agree with calling him a monster. He also saved an entire city, literally hundreds of thousands of people from death by immolation. Does one act outweigh the other?

[Happy Ent]

Since when did Brienne imagine herself to simply be a paid killer?

Never. I (the Happy Ent) view knights as paid killers for which society has built a rhetoric building on concepts of pride, honour, loyalty, devotion, etc., to make them virtuous. It’s always been like that. Society needs to pull a cover of aesthetics over what is basically a very cruel and violent job. That’s why you have so much ceremony in the military.

Do you think she'd be anything other than outraged if someone accused her of being something so reprehensible?

No, of course not. Brienne is living inside that rhetoric bubble.

I’m sorry that I can’t really see how my point was refuted. On the contrary. The misalignment between the brutality of soldiering and the moral scaffolding that supports it was my point.

[Happy Ent]

Ent - I just think you dislike the shole concept of Brienne, and refuse to give her ANY credit, for anything.

Huh? I love Brienne. I love her chapters, her story arc — I think so far it’s the essence of the entire epic, a mini-ASOIAF within the books. Brienne is also one of the characters with whom I most strongly self-identify. (The other is Catelyn.)

You seem to evaluate this entire complex based on who you like and not, and make the mistake of inferring similar mechanism in other readers.

[Nukelavee]

Hmm? No, Ent, unless again we are looking at totally different things. I mean,I like what Martin does with Cat, she is pretty believable; she's just not a "person" I'd want to have to deal with.

I just seem to have a hard time keeping track of when you are discussing, umm, lets say plot devices vs the characters embroiled in them. Seriously, you've used certain phrases in discussing Brienne that don't seem to say you like the character.

So, I stand corrected.

[iamthedave]

Look at it this way: so far, she has been conflicted about love and honour. On one side she wants to be a knight. On the other, she falls in love with handsome men. They reject her. With Catelyn’s revelations about Jaime’s treachery (taking Riverrun, planning the Red Wedding with Roose Bolton over dinner at Harrenhal), her silly ideas of love are now finally quenched. She can go all-in: A knight is all she ever wanted to be, and it’s all she will be. Her final task will complete her.

No, of course not. Brienne is living inside that rhetoric bubble.

So you're saying that you can't see how the above quotes contradict the following:

Strongboar and Brienne are merely paid killers, henchmen, a position that Westerosi society has glorified with moral constructions called honour and loyalty.

?

I get that you - Ent - consider them to be nothing but glorified hired killers. But you said that this would be the perfect end to her arc because Brienne views herself as a knight, and in your scenario she can go 'all-in'.

But Brienne does not view a knight as merely a hired killer.

It's not an ending that's perfect to HER story, it's perfect only to your interpretation of what a knight is, and is the exact opposite of a perfect ending to Brienne's story. Because she would not be living up to being what she views a knight to be. She'd be going 'all-in' as something she is not and would NEVER want to be.

These 'silly' ideas of romance are critical to Brienne's thinking and her conceptions of the world. For them to be abandoned means nothing less than the end of Brienne as a person.

[j52y]

Here's the thing about Brienne: she's not afraid of death. She is willing to die for the oaths she swore to Catelyn and Jaime: to find the Stark daughters. She would literally rather die than try to kill Jaime, and she made that choice in A Feast for Crows. But when she saw Podrick dying, she won't let him die. I assume she came up with a way to survive. But I'm convinced that she would never break her oath to Jaime and try to fight him, nor will she make an oath to Stoneheart that she has no intention on keeping.

I really don't know what word Brienne could've said. All I know is that Martin is a much better storyteller than I will ever be. I just read A Feast for Crows for the first time a couple months ago, and it's killing me not knowing. I don't know how you guys have waited for years!

[Faint]

Instead of killing Jaime, I wouldn't be surprised if she actually enlisted his aid and betrayed Stoneheart to save Pod. This would be much more satisfying to me, because she would have actually become what she despised the Kingslayer for, a traitor.

I doubt the story will go in this direction. Catelyn has as much plot immunity as anyone so long as Roose Bolton and Walder Frey remain alive. The logistics of your scenario wouldn't really work either -- the arc would take far too much time, and for what? To save Pod? The book has far more important issues than wasting several chapters worth of POVs just so the reader can feel better about what happens to Brienne. In any case, this wouldn't be the first time in the story that bad things happen to a good person.

He also saved an entire city, literally hundreds of thousands of people from death by immolation. Does one act outweigh the other?

He also couldn't help but f*ck his sister which beget a war that led to countless more deaths than what Aerys had planned.

But I'm convinced that she would never break her oath to Jaime and try to fight him . . .

When did she make an oath not to fight Jaime?

[alguien]

I doubt the story will go in this direction. Catelyn has as much plot immunity as anyone so long as Roose Bolton and Walder Frey remain alive.

I'm not sure what this means. If you're implying that Stoneheart has to stay "alive" to kill Roose Bolton and Walder Frey, I totally disagree. Its been demonstrated numerous times that people's vengeance is stolen from them in this series.

The logistics of your scenario wouldn't really work either -- the arc would take far too much time, and for what? To save Pod? The book has far more important issues than wasting several chapters worth of POVs just so the reader can feel better about what happens to Brienne. In any case, this wouldn't be the first time in the story that bad things happen to a good person.

How would it take too much time? Two chapters at most. I think it would work decently. One chapter ends on a cliff hanger, with Brienne clutching her sword in front of Jaime and we don't know what she's going to do. The next starts with her back at the BwB cave. They ask her if the job's done. She asks to see Pod. Then the Lannister's come out.

Brienne is not made for murder. She's capable of killing in a straight up fight. Even then I think she'd need more than BwB Stoneheart faction hearsay. She'd have to witness Jaime doing something for her to become convinced that she should challenge him.

However, I'm starting to lean more towards something else happening. I starting to lean towards the notion that GRRM is going to "Jon" Brienne, by which I mean take the difficult choice out of her hands by having some extraneous event solve it for her.

He also couldn't help but f*ck his sister which beget a war that led to countless more deaths than what Aerys had planned.

Your logic of indirect consequences causing war gives some pretty wide criteria. It means that Ned, Catelyn, and pretty much every noble of consequence in the series are also guilty of the deaths of thousands. I'm trying to think of a POV character who's direct actions saved an entire city, hundreds of thousands of lives, from burning to death.

I think Jaime is a mixed bag. Talent-wise, he's the Mickey Mantle of knighthood. Morality-wise, he's a privileged aristocrat. The most heinous of Jaime's crimes that we read of, to me, is ordering Jory and Ned's other guardsmen killed. Terrible though his other crimes may have been, this is almost sociopathic. The equivalent of saying, I'm mad at you, so I'm going to break your toys. At least with Bran, he had a reason, he felt remorse. When ordering Jory's death, he smiled.

[Faint]

Brienne is not made for murder. She's capable of killing in a straight up fight. Even then I think she'd need more than BwB Stoneheart faction hearsay. She'd have to witness Jaime doing something for her to become convinced that she should challenge him.

Yes, but what would this Lannister plot entail? Brienne being the key element in the complete destruction of the Brotherhood Without Banners for the crime of . . . hanging Freys?

I find it wholly unbelievable. It would also make all the legwork in AFfC setting up Tom O' Sevens in Riverrun a complete waste. And what would be Brienne's role after this? Finding Sansa? Arya? I'm sure they'd be down with Brienne's murder of their mother and her taking up sides with the Kingslayer.

Your logic of indirect consequences causing war gives some pretty wide criteria. It means that Ned, Catelyn, and pretty much every noble of consequence in the series are also guilty of the deaths of thousands. I'm trying to think of a POV character who's direct actions saved an entire city, hundreds of thousands of lives, from burning to death.

This isn't indirect -- this is direct. He knew he was committing treason that lead to a bastard child that was posing as a legitimate child. If Joffrey was legitimate, Ned, Stannis, and Renly do not go to war. There is no war. And it's not as if Jaime doesn't realize why Ned, Stannis, and Renly turned against the Lannisters. It was him and his sister. He was actually quite honorable in killing Aerys but all that, in my mind, was pissed away when he unleashed chaos in the entire realm because he couldn't keep it in his pants.

[Errant Bard]

So you're saying that you can't see how the above quotes contradict the following:

?

I'm no ent, but I don't see the contradiction in what he says:

The first quote says that in the conflict between honour and love, Brienne would choose honour, being disappointed by men (more or less). And the "rhetoric bubble" line means that Brienne views westerosi honour as good, and an end in itself, while Happy Ent, outside of that bubble, considers it an unreasonable self-delusion at best.

The second quote repeats the first one, emerely switching the terms: Our arboreal friend first says that he, still ouside of that "rhetoric bubble", much like a Sandor Clegane, considers knights to be hired killers with pretty ribbons, henchmen forced to do the bidding of their overlord, while the Westerosi society built a mythos around that concept, that glorifies it and hides how wrong it is, and Brienne totally buys that glorification.

So... Knights have honour. Honour implies obedience. B loves honour, thinks it's her goal in life, so she obeys. HE sees honour as smoke and mirrors, so he sees the subjugation through trickery. Where is the contradiction?

[alguien]

Yes, but what would this Lannister plot entail? Brienne being the key element in the complete destruction of the Brotherhood Without Banners for the crime of . . . hanging Freys?

No, she does it to save Pod. Pod, who most likely will be used as ransom by the BwB to ensure that Brienne goes about her mission. Pod, who is the reason Brienne shouts "Sword!"

I find it wholly unbelievable. It would also make all the legwork in AFfC setting up Tom O' Sevens in Riverrun a complete waste. And what would be Brienne's role after this? Finding Sansa? Arya? I'm sure they'd be down with Brienne's murder of their mother and her taking up sides with the Kingslayer.

We know Tom O' Sevens is in the castle and that's how Stoneheart got her info. There's no further need to be there. Brienne certainly wouldn't need him to get to Jaime.

I actually think it would be interesting if Brienne joined up with Dany and followed in her grandfather's footsteps. Who knows? Ser Barristan might actually be in a position to recognize who she was and where she came from. (I mean, what would he think if he saw some hulking giant knight who's shield was a falling star over an elm tree? Would he perhaps remember the time he unhorsed the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard at age 10?) Actually, if you've read her statements, she's be quite up front about stating that the Targaryen's were the rightful heirs to the throne.

This isn't indirect -- this is direct. He knew he was committing treason that lead to a bastard child that was posing as a legitimate child. If Joffrey was legitimate, Ned, Stannis, and Renly do not go to war. There is no war. And it's not as if Jaime doesn't realize why Ned, Stannis, and Renly turned against the Lannisters. It was him and his sister. He was actually quite honorable in killing Aerys but all that, in my mind, was pissed away when he unleashed chaos in the entire realm because he couldn't keep it in his pants.

No, war happened because Robert and Ned rebelled, because Aerys was mad, because...something happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna, because Littlefinger set it up through Lysa, because Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, for a whole host of reasons--one of them, yes, being Joffrey's legitimacy. There was a new regime after a 300 year dynasty, the Seven Kingdoms were ripe for war. And legitimacy was just one of the reasons. All this happened while NONE of them suspected Joffrey was a product of incest.

In fact, Renly is a terrible example here. He claimed the throne because he wanted power. He could give a crap about the legitimacy of Joffrey.

[Faint]

My theory actually does not have Brienne going to Riverrun to confront Jaime.

I think Jaime is on the way back to King's Landing and she will confront him on the way there. She has the paper to bypass his guards, after all. And I think she will remain conflicted about her mission the whole time and even though she will have an opportunity to kill Jaime, I think she will hesitate, and be killed in turn (not necessarily by Jaime though).

As for Tom O' Sevens, I do not think it coincidence that G.R.R.M. made a point to mention he was staying in Riverrun. If his purpose was truly done, we would have stopped hearing from him. I think he is precisely there because the Brotherhood Without Banners and Catelyn will use him to re-take Riverrun.

And as for your argument about Jaime, you try to muddy the issue by taking the timeline further back, but remain unconvincing. If Joffrey was legitimate, Ned does not "rebel" nor does Stannis, and Renly doesn't either because his opportunity disappears with the Starks, Tullys, and his brother's men behind the throne.

Jaime knew precisely what he was doing and he knew what the consequences would be if his crime was found out. He threw Bran down the tower for a reason.

Even now, do you think Jaime remains ignorant about why the war started? Do you think he doesn't realize why Ned did what he did, why Stannis did why he did, and why Renly had the opportunity to do what he did?

Ask yourself this, does any of this happen if Jaime keeps it in his pants? What happens if Joffrey really is the legitimate son of Robert Baratheon? And whose fault is it that he isn't?

[Errant Bard]

Ask yourself this, does any of this happen if Jaime keeps it in his pants? What happens if Joffrey really is the legitimate son of Robert Baratheon? And whose fault is it that he isn't?

Uh, yes, actually everything happens the same. Jon Arryn still dies (he does because Lysa poisons him, not because of his endeavours in genetics). Bran is not attacked, but no matter, Ned goes south to find Jon Arryn's assassin, investigate Lysa's claim about a Lannister plot on the crown, and provide a chance for Sansa to be queen. Lady is killed the same, Nymeria chased the same. Littlefinger arranges for some other clusterfuck to happen, tells Ned that Joffrey isn't legitimate. Cersei kills Robert the same, arrests Ned for not being OK with that. And so on.

Ultimately, he's a gear in the plot mechanic, but he's hardly irreplaceable or necessary. Wars are fought for less, even with a shier author.

That being said, yes, fucking the queen was treason. So was killing the former king. I don't know if it makes him a villain though, and I'm convinced that a non-Baratheon (or non-targaryen) bloodline supporter lord has no authority to judge him on that, anyway.

[alguien]

My theory actually does not have Brienne going to Riverrun to confront Jaime.

I think Jaime is on the way back to King's Landing and she will confront him on the way there. She has the paper to bypass his guards, after all. And I think she will remain conflicted about her mission the whole time and even though she will have an opportunity to kill Jaime, I think she will hesitate, and be killed in turn (not necessarily by Jaime though).

Interesting. Contingent on Jaime leaving to save Cersei. I think that's pretty debatable, but certainly possible.

And as for your argument about Jaime, you try to muddy the issue by taking the timeline further back, but remain unconvincing. If Joffrey was legitimate, Ned does not "rebel"

First off, Ned and Catelyn were working against the Lannisters without ever suspecting that Joffrey was a bastard. They were doing it, as Errant Bard says, because Lysa pointed them at the Lannisters.

nor does Stannis, and Renly doesn't either because his opportunity disappears with the Starks, Tullys, and his brother's men behind the throne.

Stannis wouldn't have, but Renly already makes a play despite the north, west, etc. against him. With the South, he had all the allies he needed.

Jaime knew precisely what he was doing and he knew what the consequences would be if his crime was found out. He threw Bran down the tower for a reason.

That's just incorrect. Jaime does what he does for love. He specifically admits this. If anything, we know he deliberately DOESN'T think about consequences. He doesn't care about successions, about thrones, or even about his kids for that matter. He didn't even want Cersei to have kids.

Even now, do you think Jaime remains ignorant about why the war started? Do you think he doesn't realize why Ned did what he did, why Stannis did why he did, and why Renly had the opportunity to do what he did?

Ask yourself this, does any of this happen if Jaime keeps it in his pants? What happens if Joffrey really is the legitimate son of Robert Baratheon? And whose fault is it that he isn't?

What happens? Lannisters might make a play for power. Balon Greyjoy tries to rebel--oh wait, that already did happen. Dany comes back with Dragons and has another Field of Fire. All of this was going to happen because of the simple fact that Robert's was a young regime. Again, your example of Renly is just completely incorrect. He rebels without even knowing that Joffrey was a bastard. In fact, he suspects Stannis of lying.

By your logic, indirect actions leading to war, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ned, Robert, Jon Arryn, and Aerys are far worse than Jaime ever was.