Brienne's last word

[Happy Ent]

Near Maidenpool, she recalled, the Brave Companions had strung a septon up by his heels from the limb of a tree.

Brienne I, Feast for Crows

[Mandurang]

Brienne I, Feast for Crows

I concede the point.

[alguien]

Amazingly, we’re going to fill another cup of “Brienne’s last word” to the brim. Only months to go, optimistically. What say you? Are we up for another 400?

Or we could debate if Varys planted Shae. What? It’s been more than a year, I think!

Oh, I know a good one: Brienne cried “VarysPlantedShae!”

:rofl: :lmao:

[AvengingAryaFan]

I would consider this precis of the trial to have lost nuances. Let's quote some of the actual text:

...[text]

Consider the bolded section. While Stoneheart is at least happy enough with it not to go to the effort of speaking to correct it, it is far from clear that Lem is simply repeating her words.

...[text, with Lem's editorial comment about giving her Freys, Boltons and Lannisters, as many as she likes, bolded]

If I understand you correctly, your argument is that Catelyn has no right to want Jaime dead except for any involvement he might have had in the Red Wedding, and that therefore she must only want him dead because she believes him to have had a major role in it. I think we are just going to have to disagree here.

I'm so far behind in this thread, but I have to start somewhere.

Any loss of nuance seems fairly trivial to me. As to the bolded section, I left out Lem's clearly editorial comment, which was phrased in such a way as to clearly NOT be repeating her words; and I left out all the words that served only to suggest they were, in fact, Lady Stoneheart's words (e.g., "milady says"); I did that to simplify and clarify what she seems to be saying. If you're satisfied that I fairly represented her statements, then I've succeeded in my intent. If not, we might debate some detail; but you didn't indicate any specific objection (except the words that I in fact left out for exactly the reason you noted).

If I understand YOU correctly, then you do not understand me quite correctly. UnCat has a right to want whatever she wants. I have no doubt that she continues to detest Jaime for Bran, etc. I think she has no right to use that detestation as a basis for ordering his death, because of her release agreement, tacit and explicit; I believe that only Jaime's actions subsequent to his release can serve as a proper basis for a death order. That's what *I* believe, but I don't assume that it is what UnCat believes. However, I observe that the only rationale for death she actually provides is Jaime's presumed involvement in the RW. Consequently, while I don't assume that she agrees (about what is a valid basis for ordering death), I submit there is an appearance of agreement; that she feels she has (ample) reason to order Jaime's death now - to practical purposes, exclusively because of his involvement in the Red Wedding.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Want to talk about an unreasonable belief. What evidence does Brienne have to think Jaime is not involved? [inserting paragraph break]

Had Catelyn let her argue her case -- your desperate wish, apparently -- what would Brienne have said? Or better put, what could she have possibly said that was the least bit believable to Catleyn, or, for that matter, any other human being on Westeros who has even a passing knowledge of Jaime and his wondrous deeds of compassion and good faith?

Hmm. Brienne was with Jaime for a considerable period of time, and saw him change from an arrogant bastard to a frankly astonishingly considerate man. There is a reason that juries are required to evaluate the credibility of witnesses: people have a sense for truthfulness and falsehood, and between them a jury should usually be able to decide who is lying and who not.

I'm sure that can be mocked: "oh, she just knows, does she?" To some extent, the answer is yes: she has observed Jaime carefully enough and long enough to have a pretty good idea about his character now. And, please note: she IS, in fact, correct. Her intuition and character judgment are confirmed by the facts.

Brienne should have been treated as honorable and honest to a fault. Martin had to really twist Stoneheart and the BwB to make their dismissively accusatory treatment of her seem plausible; Catelyn had numerous reasons to trust Brienne, and on top of that she had proved her honor and valor in the most death-defying, graphic way possible.

But you misunderstand my "wish", which is not for Brienne to argue her case - she did that - but for UnCat to listen properly. It isn't that Brienne could have proved Jaime was not involved in the RW, but rather that Brienne's belief in Jaime's innocence should have caused UnCat to realize her reliance on the word of Roose Bolton. Thereupon, memory of Catelyn's faulty conclusions and disastrous rash actions w/r/t Tyrion (due to incriminating words from a similarly completely untrustworthy source) should then have prompted UnCat to truly investigate Jaime's involvement. At the least, she should have recognized sufficient uncertainty to avoid doing anything so disastrously rash as murdering her best knight and two innocent oompanions merely for refusing a quite-possibly dishonorable order.

[AvengingAryaFan]

To put on shoe on the other foot: if only Brienne weren’t so stubborn and would actually listen to what Catelyn has to say, I’m convinced she’d see that she’s wrong. Planning the Red Wedding, taking Riverrun – these things are unknown to Brienne and don’t look good. Who knows how she’ll react when she hears these things? She has despised Jaime before. She can learn to despise him again based on all the things she’ll hear. Being betrayed by dashing men is not a new experience to her.

See? It cuts both ways! Oh, if Brienne would but listen to all the good arguments of the BwB for why Jaime has to die…

Yes, it cuts both ways: both sides should listen to the other, and the result should be neither is certain of Jaime's guilt or innocence: Jaime's involvement in the RW should be investigated. He should NOT be murdered out of hand, let alone Brienne, Hunt and Pod murdered merely for refusing to do so. Catelyn, and now UnCat, disastrously harm themselves and others with these rash and drastic actions on faulty information.

[AvengingAryaFan]

But doesn't that tie back to the Red Wedding?

What was it Tywin said about it? Why is it so objectionable to kill 13 people over dinner if it'll save thousands? I haven't the books to hand to seek out the quote.

For all the horror of the thing... Tywin IS right, from a certain point of view, which Martin emphasises by having quick-witted and sharp tongued Tyrion lost for words for a moment.

Uh, it wasn't 13 people. Have you forgotten about the wholesale slaughter of the fighting men of the North at the RW? They were gotten drunk and slaughtered mercilessly.

It is objectionable because it is the most egregious violation of a bedrock principle of civilized Westerosi society for apparently thousands of years. A much less egregious example, (the Night's King?), is still remembered and used as an object lesson many hundreds of years later - and the RW is orders of magnitude worse.

Why is it worse to take away the freedom of Americans rather than killing thousands of them? Because valor morghulis, but freedom is our bedrock principle (or was, prior to the rise of the security state). It is often worse to violate a principle than to merely kill people.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Except, the premise was wrong. What was done was so foul that it ensured the war would continue until every single Frey and Bolton was dead, along with guaranteeing that House Lannsiter would be totally destroyed.

Perhaps had Robb just been caught be an arrow -- as was the original plan -- then that argument might have had some weight, but what ended up coming about did not lead to peace, then, now, and long into the future.

Wholly a digression, but: what makes you think Robb taking an arrow was the original plan? If killing Robb was all they wanted, they had ample opportunity. Moreover, the Crag was surrendered immediately after Robb was slightly wounded - which should have particularly encouraged the defenders if hitting Robb was their goal. Yet further, the slight wound festered, leading to a need for nursing; and the festering itself is reminiscent of Khal Drogo under the tender ministrations of Mirri Maz Dur, a maegi like Sybell's (grand)mother.

The hints suggest that wounding Robb slightly was exactly what was intended. Destroying the whole of the North at a wedding was worth an order of magnitude more than merely killing Robb; mere castellan of the Crag Rolph Spicer got an awfully rich reward for doing something that nobody understands, while Sybell was not made privy to the RW at all. I don't know if it will ever be expressly revealed, but there are numerous hints that the RW plan preceded Robb's attack on the Crag. The people like Tywin who initiated it do not expect to be called to account for it. Some clever instigator's fingerprints aren't on it at all, Tywin's death probably wiping away the last ones.

[A wilding]

Wholly a digression, but: what makes you think Robb taking an arrow was the original plan? If killing Robb was all they wanted, they had ample opportunity.

Tywin, talking to Tyrion immediately after the RW explained to him (the same conversation in which he rhetorically asked why it was worse to kill people at dinner than on a battlefield) explicitly said that the RW was the only way to get Robb, that he was otherwise too careful and kept too many men about him.

[Faint]

Hmm. Brienne was with Jaime for a considerable period of time, and saw him change from an arrogant bastard to a frankly astonishingly considerate man. There is a reason that juries are required to evaluate the credibility of witnesses: people have a sense for truthfulness and falsehood, and between them a jury should usually be able to decide who is lying and who not.I'm sure that can be mocked: "oh, she just knows, does she?" To some extent, the answer is yes: she has observed Jaime carefully enough and long enough to have a pretty good idea about his character now. And, please note: she IS, in fact, correct. Her intuition and character judgment are confirmed by the facts.

Too bad what Brienne thinks has absolutely no relevance to this discussion in the slightest, only what she can prove.

Martin had to really twist Stoneheart and the BwB to make their dismissively accusatory treatment of her seem plausible; Catelyn had numerous reasons to trust Brienne, and on top of that she had proved her honor and valor in the most death-defying, graphic way possible.

The above is simply not true. I don't know how to address it other than to say that. You once again disregard the appearance Brienne gave when she was captured by Catelyn (i.e., sword, letter, companions, rambling dreams, etc.).

But you misunderstand my "wish", which is not for Brienne to argue her case - she did that - but for UnCat to listen properly.

And my point is that if she did, she still would have asked Brienne for Jaime's head, and Brienne still would have refused, and Catelyn still would have ordered her hung. See? Back to square one.

And why would this not have changed anything?

Because this:

It isn't that Brienne could have proved Jaime was not involved in the RW

The argument really isn't that intricate -- it's obvious on its face and makes perfect sense.

Brienne's belief in Jaime's innocence should have caused UnCat to realize her reliance on the word of Roose Bolton. Thereupon, memory of Catelyn's faulty conclusions and disastrous rash actions w/r/t Tyrion (due to incriminating words from a similarly completely untrustworthy source) should then have prompted UnCat to truly investigate Jaime's involvement. At the least, she should have recognized sufficient uncertainty to avoid doing anything so disastrously rash as murdering her best knight and two innocent oompanions merely for refusing a quite-possibly dishonorable order.

You have this strange conception that Catelyn "forgave" or "pardoned" Jaime for everything he did before she released him, which I don't have. And why you have this view seems to derive from your own imagination since I can find no textual support for your position. As I stated before, numerous times, she released him simply to get her daughters back -- there was no more to it than that.

Catelyn didn't all the sudden change her perspective on this issue when she died either. Had the Lannisters actually returned Sansa and Arya for Jaime, and Robb later recaptured him, she would have been the first advocating for his execution.

Finally, and this is me repeating myself once again, Roose Bolton is one of many different pieces of evidence implicating Jaime for his breaking of oaths to Catelyn -- Red Wedding or not.

And how in the hell do you expect Catelyn to investigate Jaime's involvement in the Red Wedding?

I had no idea Walder Frey, Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister were available for cross-examination. And in the case of the former two, if they were, wouldn't they implicate Jaime anyway -- after all, Bolton already did. As for Jaime, what will he argue? That he didn't know anything about it, that he never discussed it with Roose Bolton while he was at Harrenhal? Who will buy that story? Cersei?

Wholly a digression, but: what makes you think Robb taking an arrow was the original plan? . . .

I actually disagree with your whole premise, but I don't have the time to get into it.

As for the original plan, read through Tyrion VI, ASoS, and get back to me.

[Faint]

Incidentally, I've just finished re-reading the Jaime and Roose Bolton chapter from ASoS and I grow increasingly convinced that Catelyn will use this little exchange to convince Brienne that Jaime is guilty of plotting the Red Wedding. There are various hints throughout, too many to post here, but I especially like this little line:

"Lannister friendship could mean much." Jaime thought he knew the game they were playing now. But does the wench know as well?

Also, and this is key, Brienne gets taken prisoner soon after after Bolton reveals that Sansa has been married to Tyrion and his oath to Catelyn was a lie. There is no indication that the meal between Jaime and Roose is over though. So Brienne knows they sat and talked after she got taken away, but she doesn't know about what.

I think that the above, in conjunction with Riverrun being taken over by a force led by Jaime, Tom O' Sevens' story, and Catelyn's own story, will be what ends up convincing Brienne that Jaime is guilty, leading her to follow Catelyn's orders. Although, I still think this will lead to her death, not Jaime's.

[Happy Ent]

And, woot!, a new Brienne’s last word thread is already started, before this one has been locked!

(I always feel deliciously dirty posting in superquadricentennial threads.)

[Nukelavee]

Alleluia - I dunno, I think you put too much weight on evidence, that we KNOW is wrong. Now, we aren't the characters, but that's not the point, the point is you can't prove what didn't happen. Where I'm going with this is that, if an agenda didn't exist, there's a good chance that, sooner or later, the proof of it's invalidity will appear. So, even if Brienne changed her mind based upon what those golden tongued BwB's and their pet litch say... if she encounters the truth, she'll return to her original stance. It's basic human nature.

Plus, you assume Brienne will be convinced by Catlitch's "evidence"; I find that kinda weak, in that Cat herself ignored some fairly convincing points Tyrion made in his defence. Also, Brienne does know things about those events Cat doesn't, that further weaken the effect of what is being discussed about Jaimie and the RW (i mean that to be taken as Jaimie is seperate from the wedding, ie, I'm not saying it's a package deal in those character's heads).

As for the rest - meh, Jaimie can take care of himself, personally I think what Brienne is entitled to (but won't get) is the courtesy of NOT being assumed a traitor.

Sure, the story requires it,sure, things like that really happen...but, hey, in RL, that kin of thing tends to set me off. Just the way I feel.

Kinda like I feel Ent only posts in this topic to speed it along to the point where it will be forgotten, along with his part in it.

[Happy Ent]

Kinda like I feel Ent only posts in this topic to speed it along to the point where it will be forgotten, along with his part in it.

No. I do my best work in these threads. Only the Varys Planted Shae threads are better.

And maybe limericks.

Oh, and parodies.

[Gnomestress]

Obviously the word was "Parlay"

My two cents are that Sandor's going to save her somehow and they'll look for Sansa together. It's out of left field and is an unpopular opinion for various reasons.

So...parlay.

[Nukelavee]

Parlay...or Parkay?!?!!?!?!

[Mandurang]

Parlay...or Parkay?!?!!?!?!

Partay! :cheers:

[Faint]

To add to my earlier point, part of the reason I favor my own theory is that it leads to a relatively quick resolution to Brienne's story. My thinking is that the story cannot continue to carry a tertiary characters along if it hopes to reach a conclusion sometime this century. I see no reason why it should be expanded at this point to have her save Sansa. In any case, I don't think Sansa needs much saving at the moment -- she'll deal with Littlefinger herself.

[iamthedave]

I hope Brienne has a larger role and that her story doesn't come to a sudden, violent end, because I'm getting sick to my back teeth of every single person you could accuse of being decent coming to sudden, violent ends.

But yes, most likely Brienne's going to die. The story's general view on honour is that it's a quick way to die.

[Happy Ent]

But yes, most likely Brienne's going to die. The story's general view on honour is that it's a quick way to die.

The story’s view is that honour is a horse.

Tywin died. Jon Snow and Dany have plot armour. So I don’t share your bleak view of the story’s logic.

That being said, yes, I agree that Brienne is going to die. During or right after her duel with Jaime. It’s what songs are made of, so it’s all she ever wanted. To give her life, loyally, in the service of somebody else, like a true knight. I don’t even find it very tragic. Brienne will be one of the few characters who will be complete when her arc is over.

Look at it this way: so far, she has been conflicted about love and honour. On one side she wants to be a knight. On the other, she falls in love with handsome men. They reject her. With Catelyn’s revelations about Jaime’s treachery (taking Riverrun, planning the Red Wedding with Roose Bolton over dinner at Harrenhal), her silly ideas of love are now finally quenched. She can go all-in: A knight is all she ever wanted to be, and it’s all she will be. Her final task will complete her.

I find that quite apt and satisfying.