Brienne's last word

[Nukelavee]

And, Alleluia, you totally overlook one thing in regards to the incest kicking off the war....

The war WAS going to happen,no matter what. Varys had one plot going, involving (likely) Dorne and Dany/Vis. Petyr had ANOTHER plot going, involving Lysa and shift the blame of Jon A's death to Cersei. And, last, was Cersei trying to remove Robert.

Plus, the war actually began with Cat grabbing Tyrion, and Gregor going all scorched earth on the riverland.

So, no, this isn't the War of the Golden Cock.

[Faint]

Littlefinger arranges for some other clusterfuck to happen, tells Ned that Joffrey isn't legitimate.

You lost me there -- I don't see how he is supposed to convince Ned that Joffrey isn't legitimate.

And it really doesn't take anything away from my point. Things did happen the way they did and because certain people did certain things.

It's like saying Jaime shouldn't be held responsible for Bran because Cersei would have decided to kill him later anyway so, in fact, Jaime saved his life.

These type of arguments are just preposterous.

Jaime and Cersei were the two figures most responsible for the War of the Five Kings. Everything else is just alternate speculation.

[alguien]

The war WAS going to happen,no matter what. Varys had one plot going, involving (likely) Dorne and Dany/Vis. Petyr had ANOTHER plot going, involving Lysa and shift the blame of Jon A's death to Cersei. And, last, was Cersei trying to remove Robert.

Exactly. No doubt Joffrey's parentage plays a part, but there was going to be a war regardless.

[iamthedave]

It's like saying Jaime shouldn't be held responsible for Bran because Cersei would have decided to kill him later anyway so, in fact, Jaime saved his life.

Actually I seem to recall Cersei was completely against killing Bran and was pissed that Jaime through him out the window. Wasn't it Joffrey who tried to have him murdered later on?

[Faint]

Interesting. Contingent on Jaime leaving to save Cersei. I think that's pretty debatable, but certainly possible.

Actually, I think he's on the way back to make sure Tommen doesn't get eaten alive by the Tyrells. I think he has quit on Cersei.

By your logic, indirect actions leading to war, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ned, Robert, Jon Arryn, and Aerys are far worse than Jaime ever was.

Indirect and direct are not good words for this, I prefer "knowing" and "unknowing."

Rhaegar and Lyanna knew what they did would lead to death and destruction. Ned and Robert were completely clueless about what the situation really was (if you believe in R + L = J).

Jaime and Cersei knew that what they were doing was treason and that if found out, that it could mean devastation for the realm. As a point of fact, they were found out and it did lead to devastation for the realm. They're responsible for that. It's that simple.

[Faint]

Actually I seem to recall Cersei was completely against killing Bran and was pissed that Jaime through him out the window. Wasn't it Joffrey who tried to have him murdered later on?

Yes, but she's so erratic, she might have changed her mind. But I make my point more for the sake of argument than anything else. Say that Cersei would have killed him and Jaime really did save his life by throwing him off the tower -- that still doesn't mean Jaime should get credit for it or not take blame for throwing him off the tower. The whole point is that he meant to kill him when he did that.

[Faint]

I can't believe I'm even arguing this point. If Person A shot Person B who was going to get shot by Person C five minutes later, is Person A not culpable?

[alguien]

Rhaegar and Lyanna knew what they did would lead to death and destruction. Ned and Robert were completely clueless about what the situation really was (if you believe in R + L = J).

Actually, Ned and Robert are way more responsible, since I'm pretty sure "rebelling" counts as knowing your actions will lead to war.

Jaime and Cersei knew that what they were doing was treason and that if found out, that it could mean devastation for the realm. As a point of fact, they were found out and it did lead to devastation for the realm. They're responsible for that. It's that simple.

I'm afraid it isn't, no matter how much you type it so. As I said, Jaime never thought of consequences. That's stated multiple times. And Jaime never wanted children, he viewed them as competition for Cersei's affection. The realm was going to be devastated no matter who's Cersei's kids were.

I can't believe I'm even arguing this point. If Person A shot Person B who was going to get shot by Person C five minutes later, is Person A not culpable?

Your metaphor is faulty. War was going to happen. Blaming it solely on Jaime and Cersei's incest is an inaccurate claim.

[iamthedave]

I doubt the story will go in this direction. Catelyn has as much plot immunity as anyone so long as Roose Bolton and Walder Frey remain alive. The logistics of your scenario wouldn't really work either -- the arc would take far too much time, and for what? To save Pod? The book has far more important issues than wasting several chapters worth of POVs just so the reader can feel better about what happens to Brienne. In any case, this wouldn't be the first time in the story that bad things happen to a good person.

Weeeeeell, you could also say the story has far more important things to concentrate on than Dany ruling in Myreen but here we are. Likewise you could say the story has far more important things to concentrate on Arya who has done literally nothing of importance for... a book and a half? Or more than that?

When I read she was going to be a POV character my first thought was 'so?'

At this point I can't even fathom how she could even BECOME relevant, unless Martin does intend for her to become a leet ninja assassin and be used to kill someone important. In fact, if we're talking about trimming the narrative to get things moving, shouldn't Arya the irrelevant be first on the chopping block?

If you want to talk about the grand plot, not that many characters do things of importance. It's part of the reason some of the readership is getting to feel the books are too big for their own good.

[Faint]

As I said, Jaime (and Cersei too) never thought of consequences.

Which makes them even more culpable.

The realm was going to be devastated no matter who's Cersei's kids were.

I'll say it again: If Person A shot Person B who was going to get shot by Person C five minutes later, is Person A not culpable?

[Faint]

Your metaphor is faulty. War was going to happen. Blaming it solely on Jaime and Cersei's incest is an inaccurate claim.

War was going to happen? You mean like how Person B being shot was going to happen?

I also didn't blame them solely, but they do have the most responsibility.

[alguien]

Which makes them even more culpable.

No, it makes your statement incorrect. You said they knew the consequences of their actions and were the ones solely responsible for the war of five kings.

I'll say it again: If Person A shot Person B who was going to get shot by Person C five minutes later, is Person A not culpable?

And I'll say it again, your metaphor is faulty. It'd be more accurate to say, that persons A, B, C, D, and E, were going to start a fight. If person's B and C hadn't been doing the nasty, the fight would still have occurred. Therefore, it is inaccurate to blame the fight solely on persons B and C.

[Faint]

And I'll say it again, your metaphor is faulty. It'd be more accurate to say, that persons A, B, C, D, and E, were going to start a fight because person B and C were doing the nasty. If person's B and C hadn't been doing the nasty, the fight would still have occurred. Therefore, it is inaccurate to blame the fight solely on persons B and C.

There you go.

And yes, that works as well.

It's still B and C's fault that it happened.

You're speaking about what might have happened, I'm speaking about what did happen.

I'm not going to argue in alternate universes.

And if I said previously that I blamed them solely, that's incorrect as well. Littlefinger and Varys are partially responsible, and even Robert, to a lesser extent. But Cersei and Jaime get the lion's share of blame, pun intended.

[alguien]

I'll just say this. I totally acknowledge that Joffrey's parentage played a significant part in the War of the Five Kings.

The disagreement came up because I was making a point that its not so easy to dismiss Jaime as an evil guy. Not just because we get a POV from him, but we also learned that he saved an entire frickin' city from immolation by murdering an evil tyrant.

AC, you responded by saying that this action is, in effect, canceled out because he is just as directly responsible for the War of the Five Kings. But he isn't. The comparisons just aren't the same. Yes, his actions played a part in getting the war started, (although I would argue that its more Cersei) but it was a war that would have happened anyway. Littlefinger, Lysa, Varys, Dany, the Greyjoys, the Martells, Lannisters... all of these people were ready to start another war for power. The fact that Renly cared little and less about Joff's legitimacy goes above and beyond proving this. The fact that the public publishing of the incest does almost nothing to change the war in any significant way proves it even better.

So anyway, my apologies for drifting the thread. My original point was that while Jaime is certainly a gray character (well, very darkish gray) it behooves the reader to remember that he's also done some real good as well, in a way that no other POV character had.

ETA: OK, you changed my words in your last post. You might want to type that instead of just bolding it. I'm sorry, but you're still wrong: they WEREN'T going to start the fight because of B + C--they were going to fight because they all wanted power and Robert's rule wasn't secure. They started fighting because Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn and blamed it on the Lannisters.

[iamthedave]

There you go.

And yes, that works as well.

It's still B and C's fault that it happened.

You're speaking about what might have happened, I'm speaking about what did happen.

I'm not going to argue in alternate universes.

And if I said previously that I blamed them solely, that's incorrect as well. Littlefinger and Varys are partially responsible, and even Robert, to a lesser extent. But Cersei and Jaime get the lion's share of blame, pun intended.

There is no possible alternate universe where the civil war doesn't happen. If Jaime and Cersei were innocent as babes, the war would still have happened, because multiple other people were scheming for that war to occur.

At the absolute minimum, the Martells of Dorne were going to (and by the looks of things will) ensure that the Targaryens had another crack at the throne.

This is why your attempt to pin the blame on two people - neither of whom are even COMPETENT politicians in this setting of Littlefingers and Varys' - is pretty farcical. Far, FAR greater powers than them were conspiring to ensure the war occurred.

[Errant Bard]

You lost me there -- I don't see how he is supposed to convince Ned that Joffrey isn't legitimate.

And it really doesn't take anything away from my point. Things did happen the way they did and because certain people did certain things.

Ned was convinced Tyrion had attacked Bran by LF's testimony. I rest my case.

And your point was not about responsibility of people (Jaime has indeed a part of responsibility) but "Ask yourself this, does any of this happen if Jaime keeps it in his pants? What happens if Joffrey really is the legitimate son of Robert Baratheon? ": about what happens without Jaime. If a direct answer to an unambiguous question you asked isn't relevant, maybe you should not have asked this question, hmmm?

As for the point, "things happens because some people do certain thing", isn't it a given? Things happen because the author wishes them to happen too, and some characters can appear or disappear, and be involved or not. I don't know what you're attacking, nobody is claiming that Jaime doesn't have a share of responsibility in the whole mess. But about everyone has... except Jon, who is emo-ing passively on the sideline.

[Faint]

My original point was that while Jaime is certainly a gray character (well, very darkish gray) it behooves the reader to remember that he's also done some real good as well, in a way that no other POV character had.

It really is quite difficult to evaluate Jaime. Sometimes he does good, sometimes he does the inexcusable. And sometimes he does the unexplainable. I've always found it odd, for example, that he was so bothered about Aerys raping his wife but had no such compunction when making it so that Tyrion's wife would be raped by a battalion of men. I find it doubly strange that he doesn't do much to reflect on his responsibility for the war even as he continually obsesses about killing Aerys. Then again, it seems he hasn't really got to grips with himself either -- the dream about his mother at the end of AFfC finds him still searching, after all this time.

I do remain convinced though, that he will ultimately be killed for his assumed role in the Red Wedding, despite his innocence on that account. I think it fits his character so well. For all this time he has been considered dishonorable for the one thing he did that was honorable and now he will die for the one thing that he had nothing to do with.

[A wilding]

I do remain convinced though, that he will ultimately be killed for his assumed role in the Red Wedding, despite his innocence on that account. I think it fits his character so well. For all this time he has been considered dishonorable for the one thing he did that was honorable and now he will die for the one thing that he had nothing to do with.

Well almost nothing to do with. He did tell Bolton to give Robb his "regards", having a very good idea as to what that meant. I would consider that a minor infraction of the spirit of his oath to Catelyn, if not of the letter of it.

[iamthedave]

I've always found it odd, for example, that he was so bothered about Aerys raping his wife but had no such compunction when making it so that Tyrion's wife would be raped by a battalion of men.

That very clearly did bother him. Enough that years later it motivated him to betray his entire family and release Tyrion, tell him the truth (which led directly to Tywin Lannister's murder), and then go on like nothing had happened.

There's a lot to wonder about Jaime, but his feelings for Tyrion aren't among them.

[Nukelavee]

Alleluia - Believe what you want about the war. The fact remains, war was going to happen regardless, and the incest predates even ROBERT'S war, so, deciding you want to use some arbitrary cutoff point to ensure incest is teh cause...seems a bit contrived.

Seeing as it was Littlefinger who supplied the reason to even check out Jon A's death...the writing was on the wall for War.