Towers of Midnight SPOILER THREAD

[Yoadm]

The point is made that as soon as the other nations enter the war (and break the peace) the Seanchan are free to attack them since the truce is broken, and this means they can gain many more channellers particularly to use as weapons to fight their war.

"The real turning point in the war had been the entry of the other nations. After that the Seanchan had been able to sieze wetlander peoples and cull more channelers from their ranks."

Umm, but for that to happen, they had to conquer significant lands in..Randland. Considering that they were in a stalemate with the Aiel for 30 years, one would have expected it to be doubly difficult for the Seanchan to advance, and thus capture more channelers.

[ljkeane]

Umm, but for that to happen, they had to conquer significant lands in..Randland. Considering that they were in a stalemate with the Aiel for 30 years, one would have expected it to be doubly difficult for the Seanchan to advance, and thus capture more channelers.

They've got the ability to Travel now so they wouldn't necessarily need to conquer significant lands to gather up fairly large numbers of channelers.

[Yoadm]

They've got the ability to Travel now so they wouldn't necessarily need to conquer significant lands to gather up fairly large numbers of channelers.

Could be.. still, I allways had the feeling that the combined might of Randland was at least on par with the Seanchan. Add to that the Aiel, then despite the ability to capture Daman'.. the results seen in this hypothetical future just seem improbable, especially since Andor had 'dragons'..

[Old Nan]

Aiel could not fight in secret. There was no honor to that. Of course, what did honor matter now? After deaths numbering in the hundreds of thousands? After the burning of Cairhien and the scouring of Illian? It had been twenty years since the Seanchan had gained the Andoran war machines.

This is from Ladolin's POV, and "her first memories as a little girl were of the Almoth strikes", i.e. what Oncala precipitated. So I guess it's possible that the Raven Empire just acquired the technology when they subsumed Andor rather than developing their own.

[ljkeane]

Could be.. still, I allways had the feeling that the combined might of Randland was at least on par with the Seanchan. Add to that the Aiel, then despite the ability to capture Daman'.. the results seen in this hypothetical future just seem improbable, especially since Andor had 'dragons'..

While I'm sure they'd be useful I don't think that firearms are quite the significant advantage in a world with channeling that they might be otherwise. It depends how a lot of factors develop I suppose, for example the vast majority of the military strength in Randland appears to be in the Borderland nations and they will probably suffer most in the Last Battle and obviously whether the Seanchan have access to the resources of the Seanchan continent or not.

[Yoadm]

While I'm sure they'd be useful I don't think that firearms are quite the significant advantage in a world with channeling that they might be otherwise. It depends how a lot of factors develop I suppose, for example the vast majority of the military strength in Randland appears to be in the Borderland nations and they will probably suffer most in the Last Battle and obviously whether the Seanchan have access to the resources of the Seanchan continent or not.

Indeed, during those 'flash forwards', there is no mention of the borderland armies. Might be an insinuation that the borderlands were completely wiped out. Another possibility is that those lands are exhausted and severely depleted by the last battle, while the Seanchan might have avoided participating in it alltogether, leaving them fresh. Too bad we don't have more info on the future flash forward scenario (from a strategic point of view), it truly was a fascinating read.

[Lightning Lord]

Quick aside, because I re-read it last night and was at a loss to explain: Why did Egwene try to tie Perrin up in TAR? They were in the WT, battling Forsaken and Black Ajah, he had just demonstrated that he knew what he was about, then she tries to summon ropes to bind him, explaining "I don't have time for this." What the hell was that all about?

[Old Nan]

Egwaida is a paranoid control freak. It's really that simple.

[Returned]

Could be.. still, I allways had the feeling that the combined might of Randland was at least on par with the Seanchan. Add to that the Aiel, then despite the ability to capture Daman'.. the results seen in this hypothetical future just seem improbable, especially since Andor had 'dragons'..

Definitely, let's look at the armies of the westland fielded in the Aiel war since that's the most recent case of an alliance of the nations. At the battle near Tar Valon the alliance consisted of 180.000 soldiers, with Saldaea, Kandor, Arad Doman and Tarabon not being able to send any troops. And this was only around 10-20% of the numbers the nations could field. Andor alone could field more troops than the entirety of the alliance that battle.

Yeah, if the westlands united they could overwhelm the Seanchan invasion, they'd be formidable. And if the Black Tower(the part that isn't taken over by darkfriends) would join the fray, I really can't see a scenario where the Seanchan wouldn't be beaten back.

Quick aside, because I re-read it last night and was at a loss to explain: Why did Egwene try to tie Perrin up in TAR? They were in the WT, battling Forsaken and Black Ajah, he had just demonstrated that he knew what he was about, then she tries to summon ropes to bind him, explaining "I don't have time for this." What the hell was that all about?

A forsaken and who knows how many sisters of the black ajah were roaming unchecked in Tel'aran'rhiod. I don't know for the love of it why she would wish to bind Perrin in a dangerous place such as that, for the simple reason that he would not be able to fend for himself. There is also that he has a bounty on his head and is really easy to identify with those eyes(Egwene might not know about the hunt on ta'veren though).

Rand for Tamyrlin 2012.

[Poobah]

Not really. Seanchan can field channelers in bettle; egwene is still bound and determined to have all the Aes Sedai swear the three oaths. Which means that till the Seanchan attack the WT, the wetlanders essentially cannot field around half of their channelers in battle (the BT was aparrently fighting, and the Aiel were using their own channelers I would assume). Meanwhile every time the Seanchan win a battle against the Aiel, they capture more wise ones to use as damane.

[Returned]

Not really. Seanchan can field channelers in bettle; egwene is still bound and determined to have all the Aes Sedai swear the three oaths. Which means that till the Seanchan attack the WT, the wetlanders essentially cannot field around half of their channelers in battle (the BT was aparrently fighting, and the Aiel were using their own channelers I would assume). Meanwhile every time the Seanchan win a battle against the Aiel, they capture more wise ones to use as damane.

It's realy difficult to predict under what circumstances Seanchan VS westlands would be. Are the borderlands still intact? Did the Seanchan attack on the white tower go through? Where is the Black Tower standing?

You must realize that the situation in Avi's visions is mainly caused because of the incursion of her direct descendants. There was no indication that the Westlands united against the Seanchan.

I'm just saying that IF they can be united they would be more than a match for the Seanchan.

[HammerOfGod]

They Travel there. So its a quick journey.

Dangerous and mysterious. It is like the lands of the Faeri. Things are crazy and don't make sense. While the whole was somewhat rushed and also somewhat predictable, the final point: how the manage to escape, was brilliantly done. Subtle clue from the past, big effect.

We know there's some really crazy shit there. There's a dreamspike for sure. And it looks like the 13x13 trick is being used a lot, on Asha'man and Aes Sedai both. And somehow, Taim's cronies are getting more powerful very quickly. Taim identity is not revealed, though there are suggestive hints that he's Moridin.

We see the first Red Ajah-male channeler cooperation begin. But that's it. The BT will be mainly dealt with in the next book.

Very well. Huge, and I mean HUGE, Trolloc assault. Maradon is almost destroyed. Kandor is overridden, IIRC.

[Guest Raidne]

Well, linear time is hardly original either, is it?

This is like if someone, say, posted on the altering and strange length of the seasons in ASOIAF and suggested that it might somehow be altered if and when the Others are destroyed, and you said "well, whatev, seasons are hardly, like, original."

Regarding people eventually not channeling, I would guess that it never becomes extinct, it's just that nobody knows what they're doing if they can channel and it's like Nynaeve or Rand with Bela.

And Egwene tried to tie up Perrin because she's the kind of person - being not mentioned in any prophecy - who, when face to face with the most important person possibly ever, destined to save the world and time itself in prophecy a dozen times over, thinks he should do what she says.

That's why.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Branden Sanderson for finally writing a scene with her where the opposing character truly just shrugs her off.

Edited to fix typo. And to add that I wish Perrin had patted her on the head. That would have really topped that whole scene off for me.

[Lightning Lord]

And Egwene tried to tie up Perrin because she's the kind of person - being not mentioned in any prophecy - who, when face to face with the most important person possibly ever, destined to save the world and time itself in prophecy a dozen times over, thinks he she do what she says.

That's why.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Branden Sanderson for finally writing a scene with her where the opposing character truly just shrugs her off.

This, along with what Old Nan and Returned wrote, is all I could come up with. I know there are Egwewe apologists/supporters and wondered if I was missing something integral to this scene.

[fionwe1987]

Whoa... Thsi discussion has gone quite a few places... lots of interesting stuff here.

I re-read the book, and I've realized that my first impression of it was way too positive. While the number of things happening here kept me reading, a re-look when there was no more suspense showed the spectacular holes in this story. It seems clear that tGS was able to be so thematically tight and well-rounded only at the expense of ToM being all over the place and full of missed opportunities. I'm going to have to agree with Pat's assessment that these two books would have worked out way better together as one book. Sorry for my initial (and clearly knee-jerk) reaction to your saying that.

On to the specifics:

Egwene binding Perrin:

She raised a hand, and he felt things change around him. Ropes appeared, binding him.

He looked down, amused. The ropes slipped free the moment he thought of them being too loose.

It appears that people have forgotten the implications of plural nouns in their rush to condemn Egwene. Exactly why anyone would think she'd leave him bound and visible as a target is beyond me. She clearly was doing other things (maybe making him invisible, for all we know), believing him in danger, so that she could concentrate on the fight for now.

I understand that people have lots of issues with Egwene. But just because a scene fails to be descriptive enough doesn't mean people should forget the basics of a person's character. Egwene rushed at Aginor in book 1 to save Rand. Is she really going to leave Perrin immobilized to be killed by a Black sister or Mesaana?

[fionwe1987]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Branden Sanderson for finally writing a scene with her where the opposing character truly just shrugs her off.

Ummm... that has happened tons of times before. And it isn't as if she was even really trying hard...

[Guest Raidne]

Ha ha, it worked!

[HammerOfGod]

Actually it is looking more and more like Taim is

Demandred...Mordin is in bad shape because when Rand lost his Left arm...Moridin lost the use of his Left arm also...

I was a little upset that the Black Tower issue was not settled in this book...

I have known for 10 years that Grandael did it...I even expounded upon the situation at length over at Dragonmount...

I have never been one to lash out at the females in this series before...even when so many people were showing a great deal of displeasure about Faile...

I hated Egwene in Towers Of Midnight...it was as if she had been put under compulsion...she treated Gowan like a paper bag full of dog shit...she tried to prevent Nynaeve from passing the test for Aes Sedai while saying to herself that she was not going to submit to the test herself...

And when Nicola was killed she just shrugged her shoulders and said she broke the rules..after saying in The Gathering Storm that she would protect her...talking about breaking rules Egwene has been breaking them from book one...

I am wondering if TGS was written by Robert Jordan while TOM was written by Sanderson...the women seemed almost completely different in the back to back books...Tuon has become a little shit herself...but it seems that Grandael has her under compulsion...

Elayne did not come off well in this book also...she was caught up in her own greatness...especially while taking the Throne of Careion...

It was a real jolt to me...because of Eqwene being such a wise Amrylin in TGS...it was a real let down...

[Lightning Lord]

Ha ha, it worked!

I assume one of fionwe's posts addressed my question?

[Guest Raidne]

I assume one of fionwe's posts addressed my question?

Yeah, she was trying to keep him safe for his own good.

Because she knows what's best for everyone.

But really, I've just never written one of these "holy shit I fucking hate Egwene" posts and as I posted earlier in this thread she doesn't really get to me that much, particularly in the face of Elayne's total disregard for all ethical considerations, but I saw that fionwe was reading the thread and was curious if the very next post would be him defending her, as has been predicted by others before in these threads.

And indeed. :)