Towers of Midnight SPOILER THREAD

[Old Nan]

If you can figure out the timeline within these books you deserve an award of some sort of award.

Give it to him then. Actually, it seems that Jordan's timeline was very precise and decipherable, with references to exact numbers of days and moon phases for much of it. TGS and TOM are much more vague, but it should be possible to piece them together with a reasonable margin for error.

[unJon]

Just read this whole thread. Agree with most people. Liked it, wrapped up some stuff well, dragged in places, etc.

One thing I didn't see mentioned: I thought for sure Damondred is that Yoeli guy in the Itulde chapters. Definitely seemed like some Forsaken level stuff going on there.

1) The horn sounding the retreat that causes the route of Itulde's army.

2) Yoeli rides to the rescue and is the hero.

3) Person investigating horn blowing is mentioned as having died.

4) Darfkfriend lords in control of the City. Yoeli uncovers them so is totally in the good graces of one of the Great Generals (who he also saved) and who Rand trusts.

5) Yoeli described as "hook nosed" like our MIA forsaken.

I think he didn't plan on Rand showing up, so he faked his death to beat a retreat.

[unJon]

Double post to add:

6) Yoeli keeps talking Itulde into staying in Maradon against his better judgement. Fakes the "help coming" fire the second time.

[fionwe1987]

Double post to add:

6) Yoeli keeps talking Itulde into staying in Maradon against his better judgement. Fakes the "help coming" fire the second time.

You forgot no. 7:

7) Yoeli does heroically, fighting Torllocs to the end with a small group of men.

Very Foresaken like, that behavior. :smug:

[unJon]

TP to add (sorry, can't seem to edit posts on bberry):

7) Yoeli leaves the wall at exactly the right time before the male channelers blow it up. Ssuper shady.

I can't figure out exaclty what his plan would be. Did he have a hand sending away all the Borderland rulers? Opeining up the whole Borderlands and leaving him in charge of the military at Maradon with a friendly Darkfriend ruler.

He seems to have wanted Itulde to survive but his army to be crushed.

[unJon]

He "died" offscreen. I don't know that I buy it. But yes, that would be in keeping with Forsaken level stupdity to date.

[AverageGuy]

One thing I didn't see mentioned: I thought for sure Damondred is that Yoeli guy in the Itulde chapters

Wait, wasn't it established that Guybon was Demandred somewhere, or was that all in my head?

[David Selig]

Egwene does mention the Trolloc attacks to the Hall, and tells them that if even with the end of the world approaching, they couldn't stand for a resolution that limited backdoor politicians, they're welcome to face the stigma. So the attack did serve a purpose, if a frustrating one, since the AS should already know this isn't the time for infighting.

Oh, right, I forgot she mentioned the invasion. Though this makes the lack of discussion even more puzzling.

I didn't remember it either. Its a fairly easy thing to forget in that context. No one thinks of the King of Illian as the Dragon Reborn, and Rand being King of lllian is the least of his titles. Tons of people make such simple mistakes in the heat of a debate. It isn't about experience or intelligence or anything.

It's not so surprising for the reader to miss it, since Rand being king of Illian is mentioned very rarely since ACOS and until now has played almost no part in the plot. But the Sitters have spent the previous days discussing and thinking about Egwene's plan to gather support among the monarchs of the world, you'd think they'd know very well who those monarchs are and which of the defacto rulers of countries currently are just Dragon's Stewards. This is the type of knowledge of political intricacies which is supposed to be their bread and butter. Add to that the deposed king of Illian hanging around the White Tower as a reminder that Rand is now in his place.

[elmis]

The reason the whole letter part is so annoying to me is not just that Verin should have told Egwene (or if she didn't have time to tell her, write her a note and give her), but also that we WRAPPED UP the waygate threat in book six. Elder Haman told Rand where all the waygates were (and Rand KNEW about the one in Caemlyn). He put up inverted wards that were undetectable and whatnot. In KoD we even have Elder Haman and some Asha'man head out together to tie up more of these loose ends. And what has happened to the Dark Wind in the ways, did it totally get neutered, because it used to eat Trollocks back in the day and was supposedly attracted by large parties.

[Guest Raidne]

/me facepalms.

So you skipped over all the rest and picked out the "overused" bit. Well played. I was talking about the last battle actually being the last battle and the wheel being destroyed to make way for linear time. But no you picked "oh magic fades hur dur dur".

Yeah, right? There is a lot of fantasy I have not read, but I've never run across "world is metaphysically shifted from an Aztec/Incan circular conception of time to a European/American linear conception of time" before.

Although, for my part, since it is named Wheel of Time, I think the circularity is rule #1 of the created world that won't be changing. I like the idea though. But who knows, maybe there was a time where channeling was lost for a spell already. The Wheel weaves.

That's the other thing, is that this conception of "the pattern" does have a sort of more linear flavor to it anyway. The wheel turns around and repeats things back, but does the pattern?

[Poobah]

Yeah, right? There is a lot of fantasy I have not read, but I've never run across "world is metaphysically shifted from an Aztec/Incan circular conception of time to a European/American linear conception of time" before.

Although, for my part, since it is named Wheel of Time, I think the circularity is rule #1 of the created world that won't be changing. I like the idea though. But who knows, maybe there was a time where channeling was lost for a spell already. The Wheel weaves.

That's the other thing, is that this conception of "the pattern" does have a sort of more linear flavor to it anyway. The wheel turns around and repeats things back, but does the pattern?

Yea it's a strange one. I always found the metaphysics of randland so much more interesting than the braid tugging and political bitching.

[Old Nan]

The reason the whole letter part is so annoying to me is not just that Verin should have told Egwene (or if she didn't have time to tell her, write her a note and give her), but also that we WRAPPED UP the waygate threat in book six. Elder Haman told Rand where all the waygates were (and Rand KNEW about the one in Caemlyn). He put up inverted wards that were undetectable and whatnot. In KoD we even have Elder Haman and some Asha'man head out together to tie up more of these loose ends.

Who knows, this might actually turn out well. Rand's wards allow the entire army out for a while before killing them. We might see the AMOL prologue kick off with Talmanes fighting Trollocs furiously when all hundred thousand of 'em keel over dead.

And what has happened to the Dark Wind in the ways, did it totally get neutered, because it used to eat Trollocks back in the day and was supposedly attracted by large parties.

Something Liandrin said back in Book 2 makes me think Darkfriend channelers can hold off the Black Wind.

[Old Nan]

Although, for my part, since it is named Wheel of Time, I think the circularity is rule #1 of the created world that won't be changing. I like the idea though. But who knows, maybe there was a time where channeling was lost for a spell already. The Wheel weaves.

Since part of the shtick is that this is supposed to be our world in the past (and future) some Ages lacked magic altogether. But I just don't see how that's likely, given how important how important channeling itself is to a number of subplots. Yes, the upcoming age looks to be highly technological, but I don't think that's at odds with continuing access to the One Power.

I don't think linear time is cosmologically possible in this world without freeing the Dark One (who doesn't seem to actually want to leave any time or space for that matter behind when he escapes), but that's just a guess.

[Maia]

So you skipped over all the rest and picked out the "overused" bit. Well played. I was talking about the last battle actually being the last battle and the wheel being destroyed to make way for linear time. But no you picked "oh magic fades hur dur dur".

Well, linear time is hardly original either, is it? You want to eliminate everything that makes WoT setting distinctive and IMHO interesting :(.

[The Evil Hat]

If you say so. It might help you enjoy the books more if you don't read them as thrillers, though, much in the opposite way as I suppose one has to care about the Starks or Jaime or that miserable dwarf to find much interest in the much-ballyhooed twists of ASOIAF's plot.

To be fair, I think I'm coming off far more negative in these threads than I really feel. I read the whole WoT in three months, and it pretty much got me into fantasy. Excluding Crossroads of Twilight, I didn't question a single thing in that period. I still do enjoy the world, and, really, this is the first time that the politics and the like really bothered me. Not sure why...

Again, I agree that Verin should have told Egwene, but she did tell Mat when he should wait in Caemlyn for 30 days. Did he wait 30 days? Did she tell him that so that he would be there with the band when the city was attacked?

I suppose it would have helped slightly to have a few extra soldiers lounging around outside the city, but, if they had no idea what was coming, it's still a sorry excuse for a defense.

EDIT:

I didn't remember it either. Its a fairly easy thing to forget in that context. No one thinks of the King of Illian as the Dragon Reborn, and Rand being King of lllian is the least of his titles. Tons of people make such simple mistakes in the heat of a debate. It isn't about experience or intelligence or anything.

As David Selig pointed out, that doesn't mean anything. Hell, I forgot it too...but I'm not an expert politician who just spent a few hours discussing this very thing. It would be like a congressmen forgetting who was in charge of France halfway through a discussion of foreign policy relating to Europe.

[Poobah]

As David Selig pointed out, that doesn't mean anything. Hell, I forgot it too...but I'm not an expert politician who just spent a few hours discussing this very thing. It would be like a congressmen forgetting who was in charge of France halfway through a discussion of foreign policy relating to Europe.

More like congressmen forgetting that France has a separate Prime Minister and President.

I do see the point though; but really if there are people out there still who hadn't realised that 'Aes Sedai (of the White Tower)' wasn't pretty much a byword for stupidity, gullibility and repressed little girls who never made it past the high school clique mindset then I'd be pretty surprised.

[Guy Kilmore]

My guess is that if Matt read the letter before Verin got a chance to speak with Egwene, Verin would have died. My other guess is that in Verin's mind the information she had for Egwene was the most important. It was the reason she was willing to let herself die. It felt like she died pretty quickly after she betrayed her oaths. I imagine in those last momments before death Verin was probably thinking a lot more selfishly. While yes, it makes sense to us to go "oh by the way," but I imagine that none of us would be that sanguine when we face certain death. I imagine that we would also do something more for ourselves than someone elses. (Besides, I imagine Verin was trusting Mat's Ta'avern-ness to help thwart the disaster.)

[Gertrude]

Verin was planning this for a long time. Long enough to get letters to various people, she could have certainly had one prepared for Egwene as a back up to Mat's.

As to time being circular vs linear, I see them as both. Think of the wheel as a rotary printing press. It can only contain so much information on the cylinder, but the paper is continually fed through. What you get is a long sheet with the same page repeating many time. Now assume the information printed is not an exact copy, but a general template. So now you have several ages that follow a general pattern - freeing/containing the Dark One, rise/fall of technology/channelling - but the paper (Pattern) on which it's printed is linear.

[Viperswhip]

Give it to him then. Actually, it seems that Jordan's timeline was very precise and decipherable, with references to exact numbers of days and moon phases for much of it. TGS and TOM are much more vague, but it should be possible to piece them together with a reasonable margin for error.

Heh, I was talking about TGS and ToM, not the rest of the series. As an avid fan, I've seen that site of course :)

[Spring Bass]

The metaphysics of the WoTverse are certainly strange upon deeper thought. Unless the Wheel of Time is screwing around with the Laws of Thermodynamics, the universe would actually be more of a downward spiral due to entropy.

RJ actually said that there are Ages in which no one knows of the One Power (and that the appearance of channeling marked the end of the Age before the Age of Legends) in one of those Tor Questions of the Week. I'm not sure how you would make Channeling extinct, although a combination of the Spark not appearing anymore, and something wiping out ranks of channelers is a possibility.*

* Maybe a Seanchan takeover? Without captured channelers, they only turn women with the Spark into damane. If they aren't finding any new damane in a Seanchan-dominated world . . .