Towers of Midnight SPOILER THREAD

[Lightning Lord]

WRT Angreal. I think Sanderson said somewhere that he thought they added instead of multiplied but that just makes absolutely no sense in any way. So I chose to ignore it since a multiplier makes a lot more sense.

I will join you in ignoring that. :cheers:

Next question: Is Perrin wielding his hammer with two hands? He's described as barely being able to lift it with one hand, but four feet from end to end (using the smaller feet they use in Randland) makes for a pretty short two handed weapon. Also would ruin his fighting style, since he's always used one hand.

[Solmyr]

The text also said that the angreal she wore helped them get more of the power out of her, which doesn't make any sense to me as it just amplifies how much power you can take in from the one source, not your actual ability to channel.

It's like you have a creature eating your bicep, as they eat more and more, you're getting weaker and weaker. Their solution is to give you a mechanical arm so you can lift more, and that enables them to eat more of your bicep. It makes little sense to me at least. If somebody could explain that to me, I'd be grateful.

The metaphor is not exact. The channeler is the conduit between the True Source and the world. He can channel the power (like a copper wire) and depending on his ability he can channel a certain amount at a time.

The Finns fed on the power, but by doing so they caused the channeler's ability to channel to diminish (probably a side effect of their methods of draining the power). They don't feed on the ability itself - that's like saying your lamp glows feeding on the copper and not the electricity.

At some point she became too weak to channel enough to satisfy their hunger at which point the angreal became useful (she had it all along as it was one of her wishes). I am inclined to believe she knew this point will come and if not for the angreal she might've been useless to the Finns and been killed. The angreal amplified her ability to channel enough that she could satisfy their hunger again, but her initial ability continued to diminish.

Nevertheless, Moiraine mentions that with the angreal she's much more powerful than she was before, unaided. Without it she can barely light a flame. This implies that the angreal alone allows for channeling more of the one power than the entire Moiraine's capacity before. And Moiraine was considered one of the strongest Aes Sedai. And the Finns said the angreal was powerful enough to be nearly a sa'angreal. Everything matches - there you go :).

[Old Nan]

It's Mjolnir. Shouldn't it practically wield itself?

I'm not sure there was a great deal of "fighting style" to the way he used his previous hammer, at that.

[Lightning Lord]

It's Mjolnir. Shouldn't it practically wield itself?

I'm not sure there was a great deal of "fighting style" to the way he used his previous hammer, at that.

He had his other hand free. I recall one specific example of him catching a spear with that hand, even though it cut him up. Now he'd have no hands, that would be different. And a short hammer from horseback against giants would just get you killed. He fights most often not from horseback, but in the battle with trollocs, before he rescues Galad, he is on horseback.

[elmis]

The metaphor is not exact. The channeler is the conduit between the True Source and the world. He can channel the power (like a copper wire) and depending on his ability he can channel a certain amount at a time.

The Finns fed on the power, but by doing so they caused the channeler's ability to channel to diminish (probably a side effect of their methods of draining the power). They don't feed on the ability itself - that's like saying your lamp glows feeding on the copper and not the electricity.

At some point she became too weak to channel enough to satisfy their hunger at which point the angreal became useful (she had it all along as it was one of her wishes). I am inclined to believe she knew this point will come and if not for the angreal she might've been useless to the Finns and been killed. The angreal amplified her ability to channel enough that she could satisfy their hunger again, but her initial ability continued to diminish.

Nevertheless, Moiraine mentions that with the angreal she's much more powerful than she was before, unaided. Without it she can barely light a flame. This implies that the angreal alone allows for channeling more of the one power than the entire Moiraine's capacity before. And Moiraine was considered one of the strongest Aes Sedai. And the Finns said the angreal was powerful enough to be nearly a sa'angreal. Everything matches - there you go :).

Thanks for the response, Solmyr, and I agree, that does seem to be what the author was going for. I still think the whole sequence wrt powerloss, ect was lame though.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Finally finished it last night. I agree with the majority that it didn't have the impact on me that TGS did, with some true facepalming idiocy from the characters. Prose wise, Sanderson really hit some ruts...and the G-Rating still holds.

My one thought:

I'm more convinced than ever that Callandor is not flawed in any way, it's simply designed to be a sa'angreal without a buffer. This means, yes it's dangerous to use because you can harm yourself accidentally, however...it has ZERO barrier, which makes it greater than even the access keys. If the user is willing to pay the price he can take in as much of the One Power as he wants, even ALL of the One Power. Which makes it a useful tool to have in a Last Battle scenario with a Dragon Reborn not expecting to survive anyway.

[Renasko]

Reading the comments over on Theoryland about the 13x13 method is pretty interesting. I had simply assumed the Asha'man had been put under compulsion by a Forsaken or more than one. Either way, that place is a hive that needs shaken. However:

Rand looked distant. "Tell them that I was wrong. Tell them that we're not weapons. We're men. Perhaps it will help. Take care. This could be dangerous. Bring me word. I will need to fix things there, but I could easily stumble into a trap more dangerous than any I've avoided so far. Problems...so many problems that need fixing. And only one of me. Go in my place, Naeff, for now. I need information."

Poor Naeff. He's a goner.

Some people are wondering whether Rand can currently be turned, since he brought about a change in himself in tGS, and whether the TP is accessible. I would point out this part of ToM in reaction:

"You don't know how close you came to doom," Rand said softly. "If I had come to you but a short time earlier, I'd have returned those slaps with balefire."

"Inside the Guardian?" Tenobia sniffed disdainfully.

"The Guardian blocks the One Power," Rand whispered. "The One Power only."

What does he mean by that? Cadsuanne thought, frowning.

[Slurktan]

Something I've been thinking about in my reread:

Egwene will likely make the same threat to Rand that Latra Posae Decume did in the AoL. That being to hold all women channelers out of his plan (though I doubt Nyneave would listen to her) thus setting up a situation like in the previous Age. However this time Rand actually has options, he could turn to the Wise Ones or Seafolk or even the Kin. But they could end up all respecting Egwene's wishes and going against him as well. So what else?

I think it's fairly obvious at this point that Rand is going to kneel to Tuon in order to create the Dragon's Peace. I assume it's going to be a straight deal of "I kneel to you and accept your authority and no one will attack or question your rule of the west coast of Randland, you make peace now and hold it past my death with all other nations". But what if the deal included Rand having the use of Damane for the last battle? This would ensure him being able to go through with his original plan regardless of Egwene's wishes.(Also would put an interesting twist on the morality of the slavery if it happens and then his plan actually works.)

I wonder if he will mention that option to Egwene at the Council of Elrond in the next book.

Another thing regarding the Dreamspike's relative weakness upon reading the Perrin chapters again:

I think people are underestimating the staggering amount of coincidences which created its destruction. Say the DO set it up in the WT. First they'd have to figure out that it is there as a ter'angreal in TAR and not just a random anomaly of the DO's touch on the world(This would also require Slayer or whomever the guard is from simply either not killing whoever came to TAR to find out what was going on, or even simply following them around in TAR so that they thought the dome extended everywhere).

Next then in order to turn it off/destroy it, they would have to find it. But would they be able to? Given that Perrin, Hopper, and the other wolves don't find it on purpose despite looking for it (the Wolf discovers it on accident upon fleeing Slayer) would an Aes Sedai/Asha'man/Wise One even be able to find it?

Once finding it would then they have a situation in which their life is in complete danger and the options are: 1)Die, or 2)Take the Dreamspike into a nightmare. Then once in the nightmare they would first have to keep control of themselves therein (not an easy task for Wise Ones/Egwene/Perrin/Wolves then have to figure someway of destroying it in the nightmare.

It was previously posted that the Aes Sedai could just walk out and travel but the flaws in that reasoning are large: 1)They'd have to realize what it was, 2) They'd have to know where the dome ends, 3) The guard with the dreamspike wouldn't just follow any party sent out to travel as Perrin suggests would happen. You might suggest that they would have a party sent out while another team is continually trying to travel in the WT. That would work but based upon knowledge that characters have of the device, is so completely illogical that it would never happen.

[Solmyr]

I'm more convinced than ever that Callandor is not flawed in any way, it's simply designed to be a sa'angreal without a buffer. This means, yes it's dangerous to use because you can harm yourself accidentally, however...it has ZERO barrier, which makes it greater than even the access keys. If the user is willing to pay the price he can take in as much of the One Power as he wants, even ALL of the One Power. Which makes it a useful tool to have in a Last Battle scenario with a Dragon Reborn not expecting to survive anyway.

An interesting theory, but I think you are forgetting one key element of all angreal/sa'angreal. They allow you to channel more of the OP than you could otherwise, unaided, but up to a certain limit. Above that limit you face the usual consequences - severing yourself or burning yourself to a cinder. The power of the angreal/sa'angreal is what sets that limit. CK was vastly more powerful that Callandor, so much that in fact I've always questioned the necessity for its existence. Only in the cleansing its power was truly necessary. But it was created at a time when saidin was clean, so its creation served no purpose (same way the thousands of nuclear weapons served no purposes during the Cold War, when only a small amount of them could destroy the entire world), but that of an arms race.

The only other thing the CK could've been necessary for is challenging the DO/Creator. And obviously this is not the will of the Pattern. So its destruction is somewhat fitting (tho now Rand has no means of achieving his Plan B - killing the DO (Fain however, might be more than capable for the task)). Callandor should be enough for the resealing of the Bore, especially if it is worked by Rand linked with 2 [powerful] women. It, having no buffer, is an already known flaw and although it may serve some useful purpose at times, it does not provide a great enough advantage, considering the risk. I believe there is something in the nature of Callandor that makes it more than a sa'angreal. I mentioned this 1-2 pages back - whenever Rand has wielded that sword he always used lightnings*, and he never uses those. Maybe the sword can somehow guide the channeler in creating weaves, that are otherwise difficult or even beyond his ability. And that might be necessary when the Bore-puzzle is approached.

Edit: *The first time in the Store he actually created a weave that sought out shadowspawn and killed them all over the stone. He was barely experienced enough to grasp saidin then, but he managed to create something that powerful and intricate. Was it just LTT's memories? LTT is a part of Rand now and we haven't seen this weave used ever since. Maybe it was the sword ...

[Guest Raidne]

But what if the deal included Rand having the use of Damane for the last battle? This would ensure him being able to go through with his original plan regardless of Egwene's wishes.

Personally, I'm going to guess that Moiraine, in addition to Nynaeve, doesn't care what Egwene thinks, and I'd bet that the three oaths no longer apply to her either.

And perhaps that's why she has to be there at the Last Battle in Min's viewing. Who knows, maybe her angreal helps with the problems with Callandor. It is designed as a bound man (wrists bound to ankles dressed in a strange suit of clothing, apparently), so maybe it has something to do with controlling men? And, we don't know what Moiraine asked about, or what she asked for, except for the bracelet.

[ljkeane]

It is designed as a bound man (wrists bound to ankles dressed in a strange suit of clothing, apparently), so maybe it has something to do with controlling men? And, we don't know what Moiraine asked about, or what she asked for, except for the bracelet.

Wasn't that the angreal that Lanfear had when they fell through the doorway?

[Poobah]

Wasn't that the angreal that Lanfear had when they fell through the doorway?

Yes. It was found in Rhuidean and Moiraine purposefully placed it there for Lanfear to have, use, and bring through the doorway. IIRC she said in her letter to Rand, or possibly in her PoV as she tackles Lanfear through the door that events had to unfold exactly that way and that she knew based on some foreknowledge (I don't recall if it was here questions to the 'finn, or her experiences going through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean).

[Guest Raidne]

Yeah, what Poobah said.

By the way, reading over the Nakomi chapter again, the clue is, IMO, when Avi asks her where she is traveling to and what sept she belongs to and she says:

I am far from my roof, yet not far at all. Perhaps it is far from me. I cannot answer your question, apprentice, for it is not my place to give this truth.

People in WoT threads seem to be taking this as some random philosophical mumbo jumbo, but to me it refers to some mysterious Jenn Aiel stuff, or to time-traveling, i.e. she's not far away in terms of place, but far away in time, or rather it is far from her in time.

Who knows? My favorite analysis on the subject from the WoT threads is this brilliant insight:

She also claims that she needs to "see to nature". Unless she is a Nym in disguise, or a very short Ogier, that's a very unusual comment from a human in this series.

Yes, excellent powers of deduction there. :lol:

[generic]

/Rant on

Verin's letter was definitely the low point of the book.

Also too much whining about the exact same thing. I mean "I'm not a lord" Perrin, "I'm no bloody lord" Mat and "I'm not a king" Lan? All in the same book? Do Not Want.

The relationships seem to have become even more awkward than I remember them.

Most everything else has already been said often enough.

/Rant off

I disagree that Rand is mishandling the BT at this moment. Waltzing in there without any information on what's going on would be Elayne level stupid. He probably should have done something earlier but then he had this voice in his head that told him to kill every last one of them.

One thought on the Where the Fuck is Demandred front. Could he be the Seanchan that impressed Tuon with his meeting and killing Assassins? If anyone would be worth the attention of two Forsaken it's the Seanchan.

[Arataniello]

One thought on the Where the Fuck is Demandred front. Could he be the Seanchan that impressed Tuon with his meeting and killing Assassins? If anyone would be worth the attention of two Forsaken it's the Seanchan.

It's unlikely, since Semirhage had the Seanchan as her 'area' when she was posing as Tuon's sidekick. Demandred and Semi were part of the three way alliance (Semi, Mes, Dem), so it wouldn't make sense* for Demandred to be squirreled away amongst the Return as well as Semirhage. Way back somewhere in the series he has stated 'my rule is secure', which also implies he is in some sort of position of authority or leadership.

I have a nasty feeling that Demandred's reveal will be another WTF moment in the last book. I still believe that Taim was originally supposed to turn out to be Demandred, but then RJ changed his mind before the Shadar Logoth cleansing.

*'making sense' of course has not stopped all sorts of other shenanigans in the series so far.

[AverageGuy]

Also would ruin his fighting style, since he's always used one hand.

Did he wield his axe with one hand, and/or was it longer than four feet?

I was a little more surprised that he kept on reaching down to his side to touch the head. If he's got a four foot weapon hanging from his belt, he must be pretty tall.

[alguien]

I have a nasty feeling that Demandred's reveal will be another WTF moment in the last book. I still believe that Taim was originally supposed to turn out to be Demandred, but then RJ changed his mind before the Shadar Logoth cleansing.

I've long thought this as well.

[The Evil Hat]

I disagree that Rand is mishandling the BT at this moment. Waltzing in there without any information on what's going on would be Elayne level stupid. He probably should have done something earlier but then he had this voice in his head that told him to kill every last one of them.

Killing them all would be a far better idea than letting them all go to the shadow.

One thought on the Where the Fuck is Demandred front. Could he be the Seanchan that impressed Tuon with his meeting and killing Assassins? If anyone would be worth the attention of two Forsaken it's the Seanchan.

Two Forsaken? The Seanchan are worth every single one of them and Shadar Harran himself, on their knees, pleading for the Seanchan to do their jobs for them.

[Lightning Lord]

Did he wield his axe with one hand, and/or was it longer than four feet?

I was a little more surprised that he kept on reaching down to his side to touch the head. If he's got a four foot weapon hanging from his belt, he must be pretty tall.

I can't refer back for specifics, but I am reasonably sure it is one handed. I can't remember an exact description, I know there is one in tSR, when the bubble of evil hits the stone. It was lighter than this magic hammer, Perrin compares the weight to his old hammer, which he easily used with one hand.

[needle]

Just to chuck it out there, I have this pet theory Demandred is Talmanes. I had lots of compelling reasons, But can't remember most of them :P.

But he has marshalled a huge army, along with Mat, and with Mat gone from the band for about 4 books, it sometimes looks as much Demandred's army as Mat's..

I'd like at least one of the forsaken to be a big reveal in terms of being a fairly major second teir character, and I can't think of many other options than Talmanes. Having him pissing around with the Shara, or being an off-scene Black Tower dude just seems lame. But then, having Mesaana being a random brown was slightly lame but not unexpected.

As far as the book went - a bit meh after the tour de force that was The Gathering Storm. I think I read it a bit too fast for many of the nunaces to sink in, but it didn't fill me with joy the way the last book did. The boring bits were too long, and the interesting bits too short.